Gunslinger Archetype

[Aphetoros]

I'm trying to decide between two gunslinger archetypes and wanted some advice of people who may have played gunslingers? They both sound great and fun, but I can't decide.

I've been searching and can't find anything on the Wandslinger.

d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/d20pfsrd-com-publishing-gunslinger-archetypes/wandslinger-gunslinger-archetype/

A lot of what I've found seems to be pointing towards Mysterious Stranger as the best archetype for gunslingers, but the lack of quick clear makes me nervous, and I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on what these archetypes play like?

(I'm ALSO interested in the thronewarden archetype.)

Any thoughts?

[Kurald Galain]

The reason you can't find anything on the wandslinger is probably because it's a third-party archetype, and a poorly written one at that. Now since wands automatically have a poor save DC, the best usage of its ability is to attach shocking grasp (+5d6) or scorching ray (+8d6 to +12d6). This makes it more powerful than a standard gunslinger, but in a fairly boring fashion and not game-breakingly so. For a more versatile version of this ability, use the Eldritch Archer Magus (which, despite its name, works just fine with guns).

Throne warden's warning shot is a very powerful ability, it automatically staggers any enemy with no saving throw or attack roll, and for free. You should be using this all the time. Other than that this archetype doesn't do a whole lot, although never being surprised is situationally nice.

The stranger simply deals more damage than the base gunslinger, and people always go for abilities like that. Not that the base gunslinger has problems dealing damage. I don't think losing quick clear is that big a deal.


Now the key here is that you call all of these "great and fun" but you don't specify what you mean by that. Generally, the gunslinger is considered a fairly mediocre and un-fun class, because it doesn't do anything other than dealing damage in combat. It deals damage fairly well, yes, but you'll simply be full-attack-shooting every single turn, over and over again, and get no tactical or versatile or out-of-combat abilities worth mentioning. If that's what you're looking for, then yes the gunslinger does its job. HTH.

[upho]

A lot of what I've found seems to be pointing towards Mysterious Stranger as the best archetype for gunslingers, but the lack of quick clear makes me nervous, and I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on what these archetypes play like?As Kurald said, this has to do with people often looking to maximize damage, especially with classes like the gunslinger whose only viable focus is damage. If you're interested in wielding two pistols, you'd get pretty much the same result with the Pistolero though.

Note also that the Mysterious Stranger does get an ability which works like quick clear at 5th level, although it's limited to Cha mod uses per day. It's usually more than enough IME, though you may of course want to keep your misfire risks down anyways.


Now the key here is that you call all of these "great and fun" but you don't specify what you mean by that. Generally, the gunslinger is considered a fairly mediocre and un-fun class, because it doesn't do anything other than dealing damage in combat. It deals damage fairly well, yes, but you'll simply be full-attack-shooting every single turn, over and over again, and get no tactical or versatile or out-of-combat abilities worth mentioning. If that's what you're looking for, then yes the gunslinger does its job. HTH.So much this.

If you want tactical, versatile and utility abilities worth mentioning, I really recommend the Eldritch Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/eldritch-archer-magus-archetype/) magus Kurald mentioned. Mechanics-wise, it's a lot more fun and interesting to play than any gunslinger archetype IMO. And if you really want to add your Dex to damage like the gunslinger, I recommend dipping 3 levels into the Trench Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/trench-fighter).

[iceifur]

Well, if you're familiar with the Spheres of Power stuff at all, there's a different Wandslinger (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wandslinger) that might interest you. If you're looking for a more martial bent, there's also the Gunfighter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/gunfighter) archetype from Spheres of Might.

If you're stuck with Paizo stuff, then your non-"pew-pew" options are kinda limited.

[grarrrg]

As Kurald said, this has to do with people often looking to maximize damage, especially with classes like the gunslinger whose only viable focus is damage. If you're interested in wielding two pistols, you'd get pretty much the same result with the Pistolero though.

Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero fight from level-to-level, and stats, on who is better in damage.

Pistoleros starting at level 1 can spend 1 Grit per -attack- to get increasing amounts of d6's, and starting at level 9 they get permanent damage increases from Pistol Training.
Mysterious Stranger at level 1 can spend a Swift and 1 Grit per -round- to get CHA damage to all attacks, but don't get Gun Training until level 9 (so DEX to damage is delayed), BUT then at level 11 they can take Signature Deed and get CHA to damage Grit free (Pistolero's can NOT make Up Close and Deadly free though).

Ultimately, it depends what your CHA score is on Mysterious Stranger for who comes out ahead in the damage race.

[Aphetoros]

Hi all-


Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I’m finding the gunslinger confusingly made. We played our first session and admittedly I was very confused when I fojnd that a crossbow has 1d10 over my pistol’s 1d8.

It’s odd to me the gun’s damage was lower than a crossbow’s. Afterall, it’s a gun!

I went with thronewarden and I like it— flavorwise too— I expressed some disappointment in how it actually seemed to play out and my GM said it’s early enough I could still change. I think I may swap over to the pistolero. It’s the kind of character I’m aiming for flavorwise, although I did build some of it around the “thronewarden” idea, bit it’s irrelevant.

I think that extra damage will actually give me a reason to spend grit points especially at low level and give me something fun to do. I chose gunslinger for the flavor of the character, and nixed the wandslinger as part of the lore of the setting is magic is fading and the campaign is delving into stopping the drain of magic, and I would’ve been crippled by the magic’s weakening.

Thanks for your help. I’m definitely noticing the gunslinger isn’t exactly what I’d hoped it would be—a bit lacklustre at first at least, and headscratchy, but for now I’m going to stick with it and should I need other skills, delve into another class.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies!

[grarrrg]

Yes, I’m finding the gunslinger confusingly made. We played our first session and admittedly I was very confused when I fojnd that a crossbow has 1d10 over my pistol’s 1d8.

It’s odd to me the gun’s damage was lower than a crossbow’s. Afterall, it’s a gun!

Part of that is that they are 'early' guns, and aren't precision instruments.
The other part is game-balance. Guns are very much balanced around the "only need to hit Touch-AC", which is a lot of their 'power'.

And the other-other part is that the designers can't really decide if they even want guns to be a thing. Two steps forward, two nerfs back...

[Aphetoros]

Makes sense mechanically, but RPwise to me it was like... “what?? That’s??? Dumb???”

Been reading up a bit and it seems I’ll be struggling to keep up with my party—hell, even our paladin attacking with a glaive does more than my gun. I wish gunslingers got gun training earlier— that dex bonus would really help. And because of the feats I need to get, it doesn’t look like I’ll ever have a dare— or not for a long time, so an entire mechanic is unusable for me since I need deadly aim and quick reload at least. Starting with a dare would have been nice.

Edit:

And I’m REALLY surprised there’s no archetype meant to dual wield pistols. From what I’ve found dual pistols basically takes a bunch of annoying rule contingencies. Fire fire drop weapon move weapon to ither hand fire drop pull out NEW guns, or have weapon cords...

Seems silly there’s no archetype for that.

[grarrrg]

And I’m REALLY surprised there’s no archetype meant to dual wield pistols. From what I’ve found dual pistols basically takes a bunch of annoying rule contingencies. Fire fire drop weapon move weapon to ither hand fire drop pull out NEW guns, or have weapon cords...

Seems silly there’s no archetype for that.

Weapon Cord doesn't work. They errata'd them to a Move Action (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r9k).

Yeah, for all the abilities, and feats, and deeds, and... that say "this would be really cool with two guns!", they really don't make it easy to ACTUALLY USE two guns.
See also: prior comment about "designers can't really decide if they even want guns to be a thing."

There are 3 ways to dual wield (note, you'll still need a way to free-action reload, and TWF feat(s)):
Feat Chain > Gun Twirling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit)
2 levels of Juggler Bard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/juggler-bard-archetype)
"extra limb" Tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling/)/Vanara (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vanaras/) Tail, or 2 levels Alchemist > Tentacle/Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Alchemist/discoveries)

Technically "Quick Draw + butt-load of pistols" works too, but...there are a (very) few other ways, but the above 3 are the least 'hoop jumping'.

[EldritchWeaver]

Well, if you're familiar with the Spheres of Power stuff at all, there's a different Wandslinger (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wandslinger) that might interest you. If you're looking for a more martial bent, there's also the Gunfighter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/gunfighter) archetype from Spheres of Might.

If you're stuck with Paizo stuff, then your non-"pew-pew" options are kinda limited.

I'd like to point out that the SoP Wandslinger is in need of a revision (can't remember any details though), which the author admits, but didn't get around yet. So using that archetype might cause some problems.