[3.5] Fighting With Two Weapons (Without making extra attacks)

[NerdHut]

There's something that's been bugging me and I'm having trouble finding a rule on it, but I'm sure it exists somewhere.

Most of us have a good understanding of Two-Weapon Fighting and its feat tree. You get extra attacks with your off-hand weapon, but you take a penalty to hit. But you can also get extra attacks from high BAB.

So let's say you have a +6/+1 BAB. You're wielding a shortsword and a dagger. You can take one extra attack on a full attack with one of those weapons, with a penalty that varies depending on feat choice.

But could you instead make two total attacks and not take the penalty? For instance, by attacking at +6 with the shortsword, then at +1 with the dagger, taking no penalties from two-weapon fighting due to the fact that you aren't taking an extra attack.

I don't feel that's an unbalanced strategy, but I don't know where in the books to find information specific to that kind of situation. Since, knowing my luck, the answer is in an obvious part of the PHB, could someone point me to it?

[Elrak]

If I am reading the information correctly on the wizards (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a)site, then I think the answer is no. The relevant part would be.

" If you have a high base attack bonus, you gain iterative attacks only with your primary weapon."

[Necroticplague]

If I am reading the information correctly on the wizards (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a)site, then I think the answer is no. The relevant part would be.

" If you have a high base attack bonus, you gain iterative attacks only with your primary weapon."


However, those articles don't make rules, they just describe ones already in place. They're also wrong at points. This is one such point. Here is the extent of the rules relating to the extra attack:


A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.
Nothing about a primary weapon is said here.

[Darrin]

This boils down to a couple of sentences in the PHB (p. 143):

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first." (emphasis added)

While it's not *explicitly* spelled out that you can switch your primary weapon whenever you like, that's the least convoluted interpretation of the bolded sentence. If you dig around in the FAQ (which unfortunately isn't entirely reliable), you can probably find other examples of switching between weapons because one weapon has reach, a special material that bypasses DR, or whatever. So in practice, you can switch your primary weapon for each iterative attack you get.

The rules are a little different when you get into TWF, because once you declare a weapon is offhand, you can't change it later. But yes, if you're not using the TWF rules and you're wielding two (or more) weapons, you can switch freely between them as you like.

[BowStreetRunner]

The Glossary in the Player's Handbook has this to say about the off hand:

off hand: A character’s weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a –4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character’s Strength bonus may be added to the damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.
In 3.0 there was still a concept of handedness, with Ambidexterity as an ability. This may just be a leftover from that.

[Khedrac]

The Two Weapon Fighting Off-handbook explicitly points out that this is correct and you can switch weapons through your iterative sequence without penalty. Now I am not sure what its source is for that, but it might be it linked Rules of the Game articles on two-weapon fighting.

[Darrin]

The Two Weapon Fighting Off-handbook explicitly points out that this is correct and you can switch weapons through your iterative sequence without penalty. Now I am not sure what its source is for that, but it might be it linked Rules of the Game articles on two-weapon fighting.

Mostly it was my interpretation. I don't believe Skip expresses any opinion on whether you can switch your primary weapon during your attack routine, although he does mention switching your offhand to a different weapon from round to round.

I quoted the PHB above where it talks about attacking with either weapon first. That's the basis for the "you can switch your primary weapon" argument. It's not explicit by RAW, but close enough for most people.

[Psyren]

There's something that's been bugging me and I'm having trouble finding a rule on it, but I'm sure it exists somewhere.

Most of us have a good understanding of Two-Weapon Fighting and its feat tree. You get extra attacks with your off-hand weapon, but you take a penalty to hit. But you can also get extra attacks from high BAB.

So let's say you have a +6/+1 BAB. You're wielding a shortsword and a dagger. You can take one extra attack on a full attack with one of those weapons, with a penalty that varies depending on feat choice.

But could you instead make two total attacks and not take the penalty? For instance, by attacking at +6 with the shortsword, then at +1 with the dagger, taking no penalties from two-weapon fighting due to the fact that you aren't taking an extra attack.

I don't feel that's an unbalanced strategy, but I don't know where in the books to find information specific to that kind of situation. Since, knowing my luck, the answer is in an obvious part of the PHB, could someone point me to it?

I don't know about 3.5, but Pathfinder explicitly allows you (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9onf) to do exactly this:



Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.

Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.

The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting. Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."

If your goal is to convince your GM to allow this, try showing him/her the FAQ entry above - the PF designers at least did not consider this to be that big a deal.

[NerdHut]

Thanks everyone. I kind of figured it was something largely overlooked after all my searching. It's a very specific kind of situation, I suppose. I think for my own games, I'll rule the way I've assumed it works (you can switch between weapons for iterative attacks without penalty). And if I'm a player with reason to bring it up, I'll go over it with whoever DMs the game.

Again, thanks for all the input!