If Blade/Valor bards get Extra Attack, then so should the cleric.

[Deathtongue]

1.) The idea of Extra Attack being a martial-only feature is dead and buried in 5E as it stands. Warlocks, Wizards, Bards, and with some modest interpretation the Druid gets these features. The cleric is the only one that doesn't.

And, no, the War Cleric's bonus action attack does not count.

2.) There's no game balance reason for the Valor/Blade bard to get Extra Attack but not the cleric. Any problematic combination spell + martial combination the cleric can do, these bards can also do at level 10. You can't even do the 'healers should not be martial buttkickers' argument, because, again, bard.

3.) The Cleric's bonus damage does not make up for it. In fact, three of the aforementioned classes (Warlock, Bladesinger, Blade Bard) get a native damage bonus, too. All three of their damage bonuses end up better, too.

[strangebloke]

There's certainly nothing wrong in principle with giving clerics an extra attack as a subclass feature. Instead of Divine strike, for instance, you could get an extra attack.

Clerics don't need a buff though, and there's no really reason why they should have extra attack, either.

[Mikal]

1.) The idea of Extra Attack being a martial-only feature is dead and buried in 5E as it stands. Warlocks, Wizards, Bards, and with some modest interpretation the Druid gets these features. The cleric is the only one that doesn't.

This is disingenuous.
The only Warlock that gets it is Pact of the Blade, i.e. the Martial Warlock. And it requires one of their few invocations to do so.
The only Wizard that gets it is Bladesinger, i.e. the Martial Wizard. And they get it at level 6 instead of 5.
The only Bards that get it are Blades and Valor, i.e. the Martial Bards. And they get it at level 6 instead of 5.
Druids don't get it.

Each of the above archetypes is geared towards martial ability, with their class abilities focusing on that vs. other focuses. The cleric doesn't do that, because that's what a Paladin is, a warrior using divine power against their enemies in melee.

Just because you want Clerics to get Extra Attack doesn't mean they should. If they want Extra Attack, multiclass into a martial class or a non-martial class with a martial archetype.
Heck, with their 1st level ability, War Clerics can get *3* attacks by level 6 if they multiclass into a martial class right after the 1st level, several times a day.

[Eldamar]

They do. It's called Spiritual Weapon.

[RickAsWritten]

I tend to agree with Sir Strangebloke. Clerics have a pretty interesting spell list, and IMO are the best designed class in the game. It just feels right to me that Clerics can't hit more than once, but when they hit that one time, it hits hard. What I really wish, is that there was a Druid subclass(besides Circle of the Brown Bear) that got extra attack.

[Waazraath]

Cleric doesn't need a buff. Cleric is more than strong enough. Already it is a fullplate wearing martial weapon wielding full caster. It can come close to the martials, DPR-wise, with one of the SCAG-cantrips & divine strike. Especially also taking into account spirtual weapon and spirit guardians (that can combined with the attack action). Making that chasis even stronger? With extra attack, so that clerics can wield a twohander and use great weapon master? Hell no.

[Deathtongue]

Each of the above archetypes is geared towards martial ability, with their class abilities focusing on that vs. other focuses. The cleric doesn't do that, because that's what a Paladin is, a warrior using divine power against their enemies in melee.And what about the War Cleric? The War Cleric isn't looking too good in the martial buttkicking department compared to a Valor Bard. You could make an argument that the Knowledge Cleric being noticeably inferior to the Bladesinger/Hexblade/Valor Bard with weapons is okay, but the War Cleric, too?


They do. It's called Spiritual Weapon.This is not an extra attack. It's subject to bonus action clog and doesn't stack with any of their martial abilities. Spiritual Weapon is a good damage adder to a caster cleric (who have fewer things to do with their bonus actions than martial clerics), but it's very much lacking for a martial cleric.


Especially also taking into account spirtual weapon and spirit guardians (that can combined with the attack action). Making that chasis even stronger? With extra attack, so that clerics can wield a twohander and use great weapon master? Hell no.A Valor Bard can do all of that, too.


It just feels right to me that Clerics can't hit more than once, but when they hit that one time, it hits hard.What? No, clerics don't hit hard with their one attack. Of the full-casters, Glamour Bards, Hexblade Warlocks, Bladesinger Wizards with Steel Wind Strike/Shadow Blade: THEY hit hard situationally with single attacks, especially when you mix in spells. An extra 1d8 (eventually 2d8) on a single weapon attack once a round? Feh.

[pdegan2814]

If you want to be a holy spellcaster who can swing a weapon, be a Cleric. If you want to be a holy warrior who can attack twice and cast a few spells, be a Paladin. :)

[DivisibleByZero]

If you want to be a holy spellcaster who can swing a weapon, be a Cleric. If you want to be a holy warrior who can attack twice and cast a few spells, be a Paladin. :)

This.
and extra letters typed, because limits

[Deathtongue]

If you want to be a holy spellcaster who can swing a weapon, be a Cleric. If you want to be a holy warrior who can attack twice and cast a few spells, be a Paladin. :)Or, since 'holy magic' doesn't mean anything in the context of 5E D&D, you could also just be a Valor Bard / Hexblade Warlock / Bladesinger and adjust your spell selection accordingly.

[Unoriginal]

An extra 1d8 (eventually 2d8) on a single weapon attack once a round? Feh.

What do you think an extra attack would do as damage?

[Deathtongue]

I mean, really, how many guides for clerics tell people that focusing on melee is a long-term losing bet? This is true for other gishes, too (the Sorceradin and Bladesinger come to mind) but the difference isn't as stark with those classes. Those two classes gradually get shunted into a more caster role, while the melee cleric's efficacy hits a brick wall with but a 'sucks to be you for focusing on strength/martial feats cleric-dude, make a WIS-build next time'. And I strongly believe that this is due to getting a weak damage bonus instead of Extra Attack.

[Deathtongue]

What do you think an extra attack would do as damage?Almost certainly more than that depending on build/magic item drops/spell selection.

[Willie the Duck]

I feel that this initial premise treats all class abilities as modular benefits which exist in a vacuum, each having their own 'point value,' and each being able to be mixed and matched together, so long as they add up to a balanced total point value, with no concerns toward overall synergy and what that does to power level. D&D tried that in AD&D 2e (both the build-a-class feature in the DMG and in the Player's Options books), and the results were not balanced. I don't see how it would be the case here, either.


1.) The idea of Extra Attack being a martial-only feature is dead and buried in 5E as it stands. Warlocks, Wizards, Bards, and with some modest interpretation the Druid gets these features. The cleric is the only one that doesn't.

Yes, but look how well it works for each of them:


The Extra Attack wizard is pretty much a wizard with a good AC who might spend a round if cornered fighting in melee instead of shocking grasp and retreating, but in the hand, any round they spend fighting is a round not spent either casting a vital spell, or hanging back out of harm's way and lobbing cantrips (reserving both spell slots and hp)

The Extra Attack Warlock is giving up what they would otherwise usually be doing-- using their very respectable multi-attacking ranged combat attack, to instead be doing a roughly the same melee combat attack. They are sacrificing both their patron and pact choices on the hope that the tricks they have up their sleeves will exceed playing a different warlock type with crossbow expert feat and/or medium armor proficiency.

The Extra Attack Bard has very few natural abilities or spells which increase their combat power (yes, valor bard inspiration can add a could dice of damage, but mostly it will be used to avoid being hit). They are incredibly MAD, needing good Cha, Dex, and Con, while still being very fragile in melee. They are giving up some very hefty Lore bard benefits in exchange for being able to spend their non-casting rounds making two arrow shots instead of Vicious Mockery.


In comparison, a cleric, through their armor and weapon proficiencies, spells, and also how their spells play out (in particular the whole Spiritual Weapon and Guardians or Bless) are designed to be wading into combat already. They aren't swapping out what they would have been doing to instead be a combat pinch-hitter, they were going to be doing combat already. They've just, up until this suggestion, had to thread the needle of how to get the most bang for their buck given that they had to do it with just one attack (or Sacred Flame/Toll the Dying), along with the LR-recharging spells they may or may not expend.


And, no, the War Cleric's bonus action attack does not count.

Given that you are trying to prevent a convincing case, you really can't just declare things out of bounds. You have to make the argument that they are not valid or important.


2.) There's no game balance reason for the Valor/Blade bard to get Extra Attack but not the cleric. Any problematic combination spell + martial combination the cleric can do, these bards can also do at level 10. You can't even do the 'healers should not be martial buttkickers' argument, because, again, bard.

Again, if you want to convince anyone else, you really can't go around saying that people "can't do" certain arguments. That's not how convincing others works.

Regardless, waiting until 10th level to be able to get a combination to work is wasting half (or more, depending on if you even play up to 10th level, much less to 20th) of a character's career. And that means that your valor bard can't spend their magical secrets on doing any other specific things (and the entire reason for a valor bard is the number of rounds where they run into situations where they have spell slots, but no spells available that will help in the given situation, and want to shoot twice instead of an Xd4 cantrip).


3.) The Cleric's bonus damage does not make up for it. In fact, three of the aforementioned classes (Warlock, Bladesinger, Blade Bard) get a native damage bonus, too. All three of their damage bonuses end up better, too.

You're right. The Cleric's bonus damage does not make up the difference. That's the point. The cleric has a weak primary attack mode, and has to use their amazingly powerful combat spells judiciously to make up the difference. It tends to work out--so long as they are willing to expend LR-recharging resources. They are a very LR-dependent class. They can't nova as quickly as a paladin, so they don't favor a 5-minute workday, but they do amazingly in a 2 encounter workday.

[Mikal]

And what about the War Cleric? The War Cleric isn't looking too good in the martial buttkicking department compared to a Valor Bard. You could make an argument that the Knowledge Cleric being noticeably inferior to the Bladesinger/Hexblade/Valor Bard with weapons is okay, but the War Cleric, too?

What about it? A War Cleric promotes War, not the cleric himself being a puissant warrior. As such, its abilities provide a mixture of personal prowess and teammate boosting.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'm playing a Fighter 1/Death Cleric 3 in a game, and.. I don't mind not getting a second attack.
Of course, none of the party has a second attack yet, so it doesn't matter.

I'm thinking about picking up Magic Initiate (Wizard) for Booming Blade, Prestidigitation, and Find Familiar for flavor and RP.
And the Familiar to help scout, since my Dragonborn is not a sneaky man.

That said, the last combat we were in, I had a Shield in my off-hand, and nothing in the main hand.
I got through the entire fight with just magic.
Which I didn't realize until after the fact. As far as I'm concerned, Cleric doesn't need a buff with an Extra Attack. It's a powerful chassis as it is.

[mephnick]

I played an Arcana Cleric to level 9 and there is absolutely no way a Cleric should get Extra Attack. I was easily kicking ass without it.

You put up Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon and use the sword cantrips and you're already one of the best melee fighters in the game AND you have the full cleric spell list.

[strangebloke]

Thinking about this more, if bards get extra attack and are full casters...

Why can't paladins be full casters?

[clash]

It would be simple enough to homebrew a subclass along the lines
Cleric: Weapons Domain
1 Bonus Proficiencies:
Martial weapons and heavy armor
2 Channel Divinity: Fighting Prowess
As a bonus action you can use your channel divinity to instantly master a style of fighting. Choose a fighting style from the list available to fighters. For the next minute you gain the benefits of the chosen fighting style.
6 Channel Divinity: Sunder Weapon
Your control over weapons gives you the power to destroy a weapon that would do you harm. As a reaction to being hit by a non-magical mellee weapon you can use channel divinity to have the weapon shatter dealing you no damage on the attack and becoming unusable as a result.
8 Extra Attack
17 Weapon Master:
Your divine mastery of weapons reaches it's peak. Some ability here.

It is different enough from war domain to warrant it's own subclass. It still gets the weapon damage boost at the same time as clerics normally do and gets extra attack well behind full martials. The Spiritual weapon argument is flawed int hat it requires a spell slot and a bonus action, and pretty much any weapon user, bard and warlock included have ways to get bonus action weapon attacks unlimited through feats. I dont see how something like this would be broken.

[Rogerdodger557]

Thinking about this more, if bards get extra attack and are full casters...

Why can't paladins be full casters?

Because Paladins get passive auras, a way of healing that doesn't consume spell slots, and the ability to smite.

[Vogie]

If the War Cleric's War Priest level 1 ability doesn't count, then a Blade Warlock's Thirsting Blade shouldn't count either. It's not required, not a core part of the class - It's an optional invocation that certain groups of warlocks can choose at any time. On a class-selection level, Thirsting Blade is right there with Spiritual Weapon (which also, as I've noticed above, doesn't count). Is it almost always picked by Blade Warlocks? Sure, but they don't get it inherently like a Bladesinger or Sword Bard does.

This argument seems firmly planted in the same line of thinking as "I should be able to drink at work because it's five o'clock somewhere" or "If you ignore all the business failures I've had, I have no business failures".

[strangebloke]

Because Paladins get passive auras, a way of healing that doesn't consume spell slots, and the ability to smite.

But bards get inspiration, expertise...

I should note at this point. I was being sarcastic.

[mephnick]

I just have no idea how you could actually play a Cleric and then decide they need another defining feature. I think it's already the strongest class in the game, except for maybe 5e's pet project the Half-Elf Bard.

[Willie the Duck]

I just have no idea how you could actually play a Cleric and then decide they need another defining feature. I think it's already the strongest class in the game, except for maybe 5e's pet project the Half-Elf Bard.

I can actually see someone playing either and saying, 'that didn't work well, I bet ____ would fix it'... not because they are weak in any way, but because they are both challenging to play and don't match up with previous editions class-with-the-same-name. If you don't wander into the wonders of Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, etc., a cleric could very well feel like a shmoe swingin his mace around for 1d6+2 or 3, expecting his spells to be reserved for heals, dispels, air walk, and all those other things he did in previous editions and wondering what was missing. Likewise, if you select your level 6 magic secrets wrong, pick up Friends and Charm Person as early spells, have your friends constant get in the way such that you can't use Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud, you can walk away from a half-elven lore bard thinking "for this I'm giving up being a wizard or pure martial?"

[some guy]

I'm allright with clerics not getting a second attack, they have a good spell list.

But what gets me is that blade bards get a fighting style, but valor bards don't and war clerics don't. But what really makes me want to type in bold and caps lock is that barbarians don't get a fighting style, even though blade bards do. Freaking barbarians don't even have spell casting and are fighting machines, but still don't get a fighting style.

[trctelles]

At the end of the day, seems like you're the only one that think that they should get an extra attack... We can go on and on about it, but it looks like we won't change your mind... If your DM allow it (or if you are the DM), then you can grant clerics the extra attack feature in your games, but for the most part, people think it's good as it is now.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I can actually see someone playing either and saying, 'that didn't work well, I bet ____ would fix it'... not because they are weak in any way, but because they are both challenging to play and don't match up with previous editions class-with-the-same-name. If you don't wander into the wonders of Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, etc., a cleric could very well feel like a shmoe swingin his mace around for 1d6+2 or 3, expecting his spells to be reserved for heals, dispels, air walk, and all those other things he did in previous editions and wondering what was missing. Likewise, if you select your level 6 magic secrets wrong, pick up Friends and Charm Person as early spells, have your friends constant get in the way such that you can't use Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud, you can walk away from a half-elven lore bard thinking "for this I'm giving up being a wizard or pure martial?"

Isn’t that the same for every class tho?

[rbstr]

Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to a Cleric subclass that got extra attack as a level 8 feature rather than Divine Strike or Potent Spellcasting.
Maybe you could do it mostly domain-free features and call it the "Templar"...and then your divine domain choice would give you whichever extra spell list and channel divinity.

But certainly the existing domains function without it and they are working as intended (mostly).

[sithlordnergal]

Clerics honestly don't need the extra attack. From what I have noticed, all your examples of Martial Full Casters, such as the Valor Bard, Warlock, and Wizard, are mostly considered the weaker subclasses. Heck, Pact of the Blade was fully underpowered until Xanathar's came out.

And the Valor Bard isn't really all that great. I have a level 10 Valor Bard. I hardly ever use my extra attack, and still felt the need to grab a level of Sorcerer to shore up the Valor Bard's weaknesses. Honestly, the only boons I gained from Valor Bard is the ability to give the rogue an extra damage dice, medium armor, and shields.

[Willie the Duck]

Isn’t that the same for every class tho?

No? Maybe. Probably not. I mean, Some classes are harder to figure out than others. Some classes also are doing exactly the same thing as they were in 4e and 3e and so forth. Champion Fighter, simple Barbarian build, Moon Druid, they are all straight forward and similar to previous classes with the same name (and pretty straightforward subclasses). Even if you pick the wrong skills for your Rogue's level one expertises, you're going to catch on pretty quickly. OTOH, if you came from for instance 3e, clerics and bards play out very differently. I imagine the same with 4e.

Look, I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. I'm assuming their experience with a cleric was in fact somewhat lackluster and that they are making a reasonable (if incorrect, by my opinion) interpretation that the class is simply sub-par.

And my first character was a half-elven lore bard, and my experience around 6th level was very much what I am describing. Light armor and a starting dex of 16 made me as crunchy as the 14 Dex wizard with mage armor. I was alternating between 1d8+3 rapier and crossbow shot and using Vicious Mockery against enemies with multiple attacks, and constantly looking at my poorly chosen spell list going, "I have plenty of spell slots left, but none of these will help." Right after that I took 2 levels of warlock specifically to have something useful to do every round. So yes, I can totally get how these classes can just plain 'not work' first time out the gate. To a degree that is at least a little moreso than the average class.

[alchahest]

they don't get a second attack because, unlike bards, who have a decent spell list but not a combaty spell list (and yes, they get a few options to snipe spells from other classes) many clerics have bonus damage on every hit with a melee weapon, and also have access to one of the more potent spell lists in the game - the full list, mind you, they get to rechoose every long rest. Many clerics also get better armor options than bards, and channel divinity options.

In short, I don't think clerics require a second attack at all. If you are looking for a battle priest, Paladins already exist, as to ancestral guardian barbarians, and fighters with the religion skill, depending on where you sit on the scale of hitting stuff -> casting spells

[Dudewithknives]

I am still waiting on my Rogue subclass with a second attack or a fighting style...

Cleric is an amazing combat class without it, the only down side is that it takes a few spells to really get things going.

[Willie the Duck]

In short, I don't think clerics require a second attack at all. If you are looking for a battle priest, Paladins already exist, as to ancestral guardian barbarians, and fighters with the religion skill, depending on where you sit on the scale of hitting stuff -> casting spells


Not to mention a high Wis (never a bad idea anyways) Variant human fighter with Magic Initiate (Ranged Cantrip, Guidance, Bless). That's a pretty good fighter-cleric

[alchahest]

Not to mention a high Wis (never a bad idea anyways) Variant human fighter with Magic Initiate (Ranged Cantrip, Guidance, Bless). That's a pretty good fighter-cleric

absolutely! a fighter with sacred flame can even ignore cover!

[Citan]

I mean, really, how many guides for clerics tell people that focusing on melee is a long-term losing bet? This is true for other gishes, too (the Sorceradin and Bladesinger come to mind) but the difference isn't as stark with those classes. Those two classes gradually get shunted into a more caster role, while the melee cleric's efficacy hits a brick wall with but a 'sucks to be you for focusing on strength/martial feats cleric-dude, make a WIS-build next time'. And I strongly believe that this is due to getting a weak damage bonus instead of Extra Attack.
Disagree with the "long-time losing bet": sure, you have better ways to use your spells, but if you want to dedicate your spellcasting to enhance your martial ability, you can be even better than Fighter most of the time.



Yes, but look how well it works for each of them:


The Extra Attack wizard is pretty much a wizard with a good AC who might spend a round if cornered fighting in melee instead of shocking grasp and retreating, but in the hand, any round they spend fighting is a round not spent either casting a vital spell, or hanging back out of harm's way and lobbing cantrips (reserving both spell slots and hp)

The Extra Attack Warlock is giving up what they would otherwise usually be doing-- using their very respectable multi-attacking ranged combat attack, to instead be doing a roughly the same melee combat attack. They are sacrificing both their patron and pact choices on the hope that the tricks they have up their sleeves will exceed playing a different warlock type with crossbow expert feat and/or medium armor proficiency.

The Extra Attack Bard has very few natural abilities or spells which increase their combat power (yes, valor bard inspiration can add a could dice of damage, but mostly it will be used to avoid being hit). They are incredibly MAD, needing good Cha, Dex, and Con, while still being very fragile in melee. They are giving up some very hefty Lore bard benefits in exchange for being able to spend their non-casting rounds making two arrow shots instead of Vicious Mockery.


In comparison, a cleric, through their armor and weapon proficiencies, spells, and also how their spells play out (in particular the whole Spiritual Weapon and Guardians or Bless) are designed to be wading into combat already. They aren't swapping out what they would have been doing to instead be a combat pinch-hitter, they were going to be doing combat already. They've just, up until this suggestion, had to thread the needle of how to get the most bang for their buck given that they had to do it with just one attack (or Sacred Flame/Toll the Dying), along with the LR-recharging spells they may or may not expend.

Regardless, waiting until 10th level to be able to get a combination to work is wasting half (or more, depending on if you even play up to 10th level, much less to 20th) of a character's career. And that means that your valor bard can't spend their magical secrets on doing any other specific things (and the entire reason for a valor bard is the number of rounds where they run into situations where they have spell slots, but no spells available that will help in the given situation, and want to shoot twice instead of an Xd4 cantrip).

I strongly disagree with you.

The main reason why Cleric doesn't get Extra Attack is that besides maybe Spirit Guardian Cleric has virtually no spell that directly helps him being good at martial.

Whereas, for each quoted caster, provided he spends resources "on self" (putting aside the debate on whether or not this is a waste of a class, which is besides the point)...
- Valor Bard is as good or better as a Fighter from level 5 onwards: between Enhance Ability (paired with Expertise in Athletics), Warding Wind against ranged attacks, Fear as a global defense, then Greater Invisibility as your "offense & defense all in one" buff, you are overall much more resilient than the Fighter, and deal better damage until at least level 11.
And this is without taking into account directly offensive spells that could be used for a duel, such as Blindness or Hold Person.
At level 10, depending on how well he waded so far and his party composition, he could grab any great buff from other class (Crusader's Mantle, Elemental Weapon, Shadow Blade, Swift Quiver, Circle of Power)...
Oh, and he gets medium armor and shields too so no AC problem either.

- Warlock: provided you picked Hexblade, you get pretty good AC either, a similar boost to damage against one enemy to what Vengeance Paladin get, AND provided you (or your party) don't care about being a d*** messing around with Darkness, you get more or less the equivalent of Greater Invisibility for yourself (although, you could also learn this one too, as well as the ones offensive aforementioned for Bard: Hold Person, Blindness, Fear...).
And considering you get few spells per short rest anyways, this is a pretty decent use of your spell whenever Hex does not feel the right choice.

- Wizard: last but not least, quite on the contrary, Bladesinger beats Fighter plain and dry from level 5 to level 20 if he dedicates his casting to it... All aforementioned spells + Shield, Mirror Image, Contigency etc... And with good DEX and INT, he gets as good AC as everyone else.

Plus, all of these get access to weapon cantrips for whenever it's better to hit hard one creature and you're confident in your chance to hit. All of these could grab either Mobile feat or Warcaster to help survive without having to spend too many spellcasting resources.

As for ASI feat investment? The only one that is mainly beneficial to melee is Mobile. Any other is as good on those "Extra Attack" caster as on regular casters such as Warcaster.

As for MADness? Where is it really? You have many ways to get advantage or enhance chance to hit so it's not like you really need more than a 16 in your main stat, unless you go for the Sharpshooter/GWM feat or really want to "maximize to the most". It's not like you need to stupidly stay right into the middle of melee when you are not up to it either, between spells and features that either reduce chance to suffer OA or outright ban it you can move in and out as required.

So, don't be mistaken: Extra Attack on those can be used as an afterthought. But when you build your character around martial capability, you are contributing much more than a plain martial as long as your resources last...
The bad thing of course, is that if you get many encounters a day using this strategy will quickly leave you dry.

The good thing though? Nobody forces you to always play like that: you really don't need more than 3-4 spells overall in your life to help it, so it's not like you are really gimping your spell selection, and nobody is putting a gun on you to force you to run into melee, so...

Whenever there is something better to do / your party needs a regular caster, you are here and operational.

And that's why the Cleric wouldn't have a use for Extra Attack: except for Shield of Faith (falls off later), Divine Favor for War (same), Command and Blindness, he has... Nothing: no "Darkness+Devil Sight", no self-buffs for offense, defense or both, just nothing on the same scale as what others get... So Extra Attack on a Cleric would indeed be an afterthought.

Unless, of course, you homebrew a Domain to basically shoe-horn 60% at least of the quoted spells, in which case it could be as awesome as for other classes. Problem is finding a kind of deity that would justify getting things as diverse as Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Blade, Hex, etc... Maybe a "Darkness" domain? XD

Besides, as other said, if you want a "divine weapon holder", Paladin is here (with the extra Oaths, you can even get Spirit Guardians).
IF you want a WIS-class, you have Ranger and Monk answering. :)

The main (only?) niche case I see is of a Cleric spending his day shoving people prone while maintaining a Spirit Guardians: such a Cleric would certainly greatly benefit from one more attack... ;)
But then why not just pick the Paladin Oath that allows you to do it? :smallwink:

---- Back to OP ----

@OP: No, Clerics overall shouldn't get Extra Attack.
First, because confer above, they don't really get any tools to make it worth it.

Second? Simply because they really don't need it to be "good enough" in melee.
You look at Spiritual Weapon with contempt "because it uses a bonus action", but it is a non-concentration spell that scales extremely well and goes off WIS.
They also get one of the top best spells someone going into melee could look for in Spirit Guardians (people don't usually want to get near you, whereas you choose whether to try and keep them).
And, finally, considering they can at least Bless themselves or use Shillelagh one way or another, if you really want to build a powerful "melee Cleric", you just need to pick Magic Initiate into whatever caster you fancy that provides Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade.

So, while it's not through Extra Attack, a properly Cleric can be nearly as powerful as any other of the aforementioned subclasses: what he lacks in self-buffs, he compensates by upcast signature spells and taking only one single feat to get auto-scaling cantrips (let's say 2 if you also want Warcaster, 3 if you also want Mobile, but that is honestly overkill by a large margin).

In that regard, your best bet for such a Cleric is Nature Cleric paired with Magic Initiate: Wizard/Sorcerer (or even a 1-level dip into it if you can afford it): Shield and Absorb Elements synergize nicely with heavy armor and Dampen Elements, both mechanically and thematically, Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are totally in phase with extra elemental damage from lvl 8 and 14, and you get the optimal Spirit Guardians setup thanks to built-in Plant Growth (basically enemy that is inside both is doomed to not move) and Freedom of Movement if you need for yourself. AND thanks to Shillelagh, he's SAD too so you can easily end at level 12 with at least 2 feats and 18 WIS.

Second would be Arcana: you get weapon cantrips built-in, and provided you reach the highest levels, you can get extremely powerful Wizard spells, so Simulacrum (this is kinda an Extra Attack, right? XD) and Wish (you'd like a 9th level Shadow Blade to go with your 8th level Spiritual Weapon because all you care about is hitting things? There you go ^^).

So there is your martial Cleric: he doesn't get Extra Attack nor spells that go with it (Shadow Blade, Elemental Blade, Crusader's Mantle), he's overall less sturdy and less accurate than all others, but in spite of that I'll bet he can equal or surpass anyone else in many situations.:smallbiggrin:

[MeeposFire]

I think if you can avoid giving another class extra attack to deal more weapon damage that makes sense you should because it helps keep more distinction between classes.

Personally I would prefer an actual weapon based cantrips for the cleric similar but not the same as booming blade and greenflame blade. That would give you the option of spending one of your few cantrips to deal more damage and get a special effect. You would just need to make those cantrips give out effects that fit the role of the cleric (less control and AOE and more boosting allies).

[Blood of Gaea]

I think if you can avoid giving another class extra attack to deal more weapon damage that makes sense you should because it helps keep more distinction between classes.

Personally I would prefer an actual weapon based cantrips for the cleric similar but not the same as booming blade and greenflame blade. That would give you the option of spending one of your few cantrips to deal more damage and get a special effect. You would just need to make those cantrips give out effects that fit the role of the cleric (less control and AOE and more boosting allies).
Hell, snagging Booming Blade with either Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate is both powerful, and fits thematically well with a Tempest Cleric.

[Appleheart]

Hell, snagging Booming Blade with either Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate is both powerful, and fits thematically well with a Tempest Cleric.

Yeah, exactly.

A quick DPR test comparing a Booming Blade Tempest Cleric with a Sword Bard, gave me the following numbers at least:

15 Tempest Cleric, Booming Blade, Spiritual Weapon. Warhammer. 20 Str/Wis - Total DPR: 37
15 Sword Bard, Rapier, d12 Flourish, Dueling Style, Haste. 20 dex - Total DPR: 41

But that cheats slightly, since Haste is a 3rd level spell and I only used Spiritual Weapon at level 2. You can upscale Spiritual Weapon, and as early as with a 4th level slot instead it'd increase your DPR by 4.5, overtaking the Bard.

So long story short, a SCAG Cantrip using Cleric vs a Sword Bard are perfectly fine and relatively balanced. Also, a 2d8 Divine Strike vs a 1d8+5 Weapon Attack is only 0.5 damage difference, so swapping Divine Strike for a second attack wouldn't make a huge difference. Now ofc this is a test done with no magical weapons, and having that would scale in favor of the valor bard, but even then we are talking about a tiny difference, which is easily offset (imo at least) by the plate armor and shield from the Cleric, and a generally stronger spell list.

[Specter]

Why must everyone think of Extra Attack when they hear the word 'War'?

War Clerics bless the warriors. It's literally in the subclass description. Nothing indicates that they even need to be in the frontline of a war.

[Wryte]

A quick DPR test comparing a Booming Blade Tempest Cleric with a Valor Bard, gave me the following numbers at least:

15 Tempest Cleric, Booming Blade, Spiritual Weapon. Warhammer. 20 Str/Wis - Total DPR: 37
15 Valor Bard, Rapier, d12 Flourish, Dueling Style, Haste. 20 dex - Total DPR: 41

Quick point of order, you're talking about a Sword bard, not a Valor bard. Valor bard is much weaker. :P

[MeeposFire]

Quick point of order, you're talking about a Sword bard, not a Valor bard. Valor bard is much weaker. :P

Lol just so you know that is not a point of order. A point of order is made when somebody violates a rule of a debate/meeting not to fix a mistake outside of that realm. You can call for a point of order because I say the vote carries because it has a majority when the rules say it carries with a 2/3 vote but you should not use point of order if I say it is night outside and it is really daylight as saying that is not a procedural violation.

Or at least that is how it is used in old Roberts Rules or Order (or as the version we typically used since full on Roberts Rules can get annoying we called it "Bobby's Rules of Order").

[CircleOfTheRock]

If you want to be a holy spellcaster who can swing a weapon, be a Cleric. If you want to be a holy warrior who can attack twice and cast a few spells, be a Paladin. :)
This; the character type you're going for is a cleric who hits often... That's kind of a paladin.

[Lombra]

Idk if it's already been said, but: you can easily take the sixth level war cleric feature and replace it with extra attack, it won't hurt the game.

Clerics don't get extra attack not because it would be too strong (a cleric attacking is a cleric not casting spells, which is a trade you rarely want to make) but because it doesn't thematically fit in the core chassis or any existing domain. Clerics fit the preacher type of character, not the action hero.

[Malifice]

I'm allright with clerics not getting a second attack, they have a good spell list.

But what gets me is that blade bards get a fighting style, but valor bards don't and war clerics don't. But what really makes me want to type in bold and caps lock is that barbarians don't get a fighting style, even though blade bards do. Freaking barbarians don't even have spell casting and are fighting machines, but still don't get a fighting style.

Do what I do. Reduce the number of rages per day by one on their class list. Give them a fighting style at second level chosen from great weapon style, duelling, TWF or protection.

[History_buff]

many clerics have bonus damage on every hit with a melee weapon,


Actually this is not the case. The text of divine strike explicitly says once per turn. Extra attack at most would only grant you the opportunity to land it twice.

[Davrix]

1.) The idea of Extra Attack being a martial-only feature is dead and buried in 5E as it stands. Warlocks, Wizards, Bards, and with some modest interpretation the Druid gets these features. The cleric is the only one that doesn't.

And, no, the War Cleric's bonus action attack does not count.

2.) There's no game balance reason for the Valor/Blade bard to get Extra Attack but not the cleric. Any problematic combination spell + martial combination the cleric can do, these bards can also do at level 10. You can't even do the 'healers should not be martial buttkickers' argument, because, again, bard.

3.) The Cleric's bonus damage does not make up for it. In fact, three of the aforementioned classes (Warlock, Bladesinger, Blade Bard) get a native damage bonus, too. All three of their damage bonuses end up better, too.


Someone is Jelly and um yea they get spiritual weapon and lots of spells as a full caster..... I think there good. That b being said they might get a subclass later for it but they are NOT hurting for it right now.

[Zalabim]

The warrior 'arcane' casters get martial weapons, extra attack, and maybe medium armor, maybe extra damage on attacks. The warrior clerics get heavy armor, martial weapons, and bonus damage on an attack. The paladin gets heavy armor, martial weapons, extra attack, and bonus damage on attacks. If you give clerics extra attack, what room does that leave for the paladin to be more martial than the cleric?


And what about the War Cleric? The War Cleric isn't looking too good in the martial buttkicking department compared to a Valor Bard. You could make an argument that the Knowledge Cleric being noticeably inferior to the Bladesinger/Hexblade/Valor Bard with weapons is okay, but the War Cleric, too?
The war cleric is the cleric that supports war(riors) like the trickery cleric is the cleric that supports tricks(ters). It is very warrior-slanted, but still a supporting character.

I'm allright with clerics not getting a second attack, they have a good spell list.

But what gets me is that blade bards get a fighting style, but valor bards don't and war clerics don't. But what really makes me want to type in bold and caps lock is that barbarians don't get a fighting style, even though blade bards do. Freaking barbarians don't even have spell casting and are fighting machines, but still don't get a fighting style.
Barbarians have a style to their fighting and that is "hit things really hard" which is represented by Rage and Reckless Attacks. Typical 'style' is represented by fighting styles. You could have a stylish, well-trained, disciplined barbarian, but it's not the default. That's not for every barbarian. Equipment specialization is completely anathema to the default barbarian's fluff.

[bid]

Idk if it's already been said, but: you can easily take the sixth level war cleric feature and replace it with extra attack, it won't hurt the game.
Eighth. That's the one that does extra damage. Swap it with sixth if you can't wait.

[Appleheart]

Quick point of order, you're talking about a Sword bard, not a Valor bard. Valor bard is much weaker. :P

Yeah, you are ofc absolutely correct. Brain fart when writing my post, but I totally did mean Sword Bard. :)

[Citan]

Do what I do. Reduce the number of rages per day by one on their class list. Give them a fighting style at second level chosen from great weapon style, duelling, TWF or protection.
It's interesting... But at what level do you reduce the number of rages then?

Because in my view 2-3 rages per long rest is already quite short when you get many encounters a day, so as a player I'd wonder if the trade is worth it if I got a Fighting Style but then got cuff off one rage early...

[Lombra]

Eighth. That's the one that does extra damage. Swap it with sixth if you can't wait.

I wrote sixth to make it the same as other full casters martial subclasses.

[Anonymouswizard]

As has been said, there's nothing wing with giving out Extra Attack in place of Divine Strike. It would end up roughly the same, maybe a bit better then a standard cleric if you go for a two handed weapon but not overpowered in anywhere near the way the 3.X Cleric was.

Clerics already get the highest number of spells known/prepared in the game and can switch out a decent portion of that list with a long rest. They get Channel Divinity and a handful of other features. They also get Divine Intervention, although it's unreliable and heavily GM-dependent.