A decision to be made:

[ReluctantDragon]

So, I come to ask for advice, opinions, etc. on a decision that I must make.

Points of interest.

I will be playing an elf.
Stats available are 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 14
I will be playing an archer.

Now then, my question is this:

Do I play a Paladin, with the elven substitution levels, or do I play a cleric with domains to assist in archery?

Recommendations?

I'm looking for pros and cons here. Also recommended build strategy and the like.

Thanks for the assistance.

RD.

[AslanCross]

I'd go with STR 16 DEX 18(+2) CON 16(-2) INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 18 and take Paladin substitution levels, if only for Ranged Smite.

If you're taking Paladin, you might want to check out Fax's alternative Paladin [here] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551).

It allows for Chaotic Good paladins, which will mesh well with the Elf Paladin substitution. (Or maybe not, this is just off the top of my head.)

[Darrin]

Do I play a Paladin, with the elven substitution levels, or do I play a cleric with domains to assist in archery?

Recommendations?


The cleric archer is a much, much, much stronger build:

Cleric 1 - Feat: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain), Feat: Weapon Focus (War Domain), Feat: Rapid Shot
Cleric 3 - Feat: Zen Archery
Cleric 6 - Feat: Precise Shot

[Skyserpent]

The cleric archer is a much, much, much stronger build:

Cleric 1 - Feat: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain), Feat: Weapon Focus (War Domain), Feat: Rapid Shot
Cleric 3 - Feat: Zen Archery
Cleric 6 - Feat: Precise Shot

agreed, CoDzillas only gonna be around for a little while longer... I think the old Wizards might be nerfing the hell out of it quite soon. so enjoy your godlike-destruction while you can.

[Duke of URL]

The cleric archer is a much, much, much stronger build:

Cleric 1 - Feat: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain), Feat: Weapon Focus (War Domain), Feat: Rapid Shot
Cleric 3 - Feat: Zen Archery
Cleric 6 - Feat: Precise Shot

Doesn't Zen Archery require a BAB of +3? You can't take it at Cleric 3...

[Techonce]

Zen Archery requires a BAB of +1 and a Wis of 13.

However, taking the feat is pointless. All it lets you do is use Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks. Dex will be about the same as WIS, if not greater.

[Darrin]

However, taking the feat is pointless. All it lets you do is use Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks. Dex will be about the same as WIS, if not greater.

Not necessarily. Putting the second 18 in Str gives you a bit more damage with the correct Mighty Composite Longbow, although with the stats in the OP there isn't really a "dump" stat. But increasing just your Wis instead of Wis+Dex is more effective/cost efficient in the long run.

[JellyPooga]

Definitely go Elven Paladin racial substitution levels, take Mounted Archery and ride around on your Unicorn mount (at 5th level!!!), shooting the bejeebers out of everything in sight.

You might also want to look into taking levels of Ranger (Elven substitution or not...extra skills and better favoured enemy bonuses in exchange for hit points; it's a deal I'd make, but something that others will reject) and taking the feat in Complete Adventurer that allows you to stack Animal Companion benefits onto your already bad-a mount (and allows multiclassing between Paladin and Ranger). Taking the Archery Combat Style will save a couple of feats that are pretty core to any archer and Favoured Enemy is always useful.

[SadisticFishing]

I agree with Zen Archery. It's just flat out cool :P

Also, means you can just put ALL your points into wisdom, you need virtually nothing else.

[ravenkith]

Elven
+Cleric of a War god.
+War domain.
+Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell.
+Nightsticks (Libris Mortis)
= Win.

[Reel On, Love]

The War domain just gives you +1 to hit. You can do a lot better than that. Time is a good one; one of the elven gods has it. Travel, Magic, Pride, the usual strong choices--all apply; just take the Elf domain to get Point Blank Shot.
Given that you're an elf and are likely to start with a DEX at most 2 points below your WIS, I'd suggest delaying Zen Archery to 6th.

1- Point Blank Shot (Elf domain), Precise Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
6 - Zen Archery
9 - Quicken Spell
then whatever.

[ravenkith]

War also gives you domain spells....which you can use in conjunction with domain spontaneity to make it so you never have to pay for magical arms and armor, if you don't want to, among other things.

[Reel On, Love]

War also gives you domain spells....which you can use in conjunction with domain spontaneity to make it so you never have to pay for magical arms and armor, if you don't want to, among other things.

Yeah--crappy domain spells. Magic Vestment (and Greater Magic Weapon, which isn't on the domain list) are on the regular cleric list. All the War domain adds is three Power Word spells, which doesn't happen until high levels--and which kind of suck. Throw a Greater Magic Weapon on your bow and Magic Vestment on your chain shirt at the start of the day and you're good to go.

Meanwhile Trickery gets you Invisibility, Disguise Self, Nondetection, Confusion, False Vision, Mislead, Screen, PAO, and Time Stop, none of which are cleric spells, and all but a couple of which are strong spells. Similarily, Travel gets you useless spells.

[ravenkith]

Yeah--crappy domain spells. Magic Vestment (and Greater Magic Weapon, which isn't on the domain list) are on the regular cleric list. All the War domain adds is three Power Word spells, which doesn't happen until high levels--and which kind of suck. Throw a Greater Magic Weapon on your bow and Magic Vestment on your chain shirt at the start of the day and you're good to go.

Meanwhile Trickery gets you Invisibility, Disguise Self, Nondetection, Confusion, False Vision, Mislead, Screen, PAO, and Time Stop, none of which are cleric spells, and all but a couple of which are strong spells. Similarily, Travel gets you useless useful spells.

Fixed that last sentence for you.

I agree, trickery and travel are great.

Yes, I said travel was great: best way to get , oh, I don't know fly and teleport....reason enough to take the domain, IMHO.

But you need war with domain spontaneity just in case you run into someone who is built out to counterspell.

If you've spent your one or two spells that you memorized, and they hit you with a gooc counterspell, you might end up in a bit of a spot of bother...

and as a cleric, you generally don't have spell slots to waste on multiple memorizations of such spells....

just saying.

Of course, the war domain works even better if you aren't an elf, and don't get free bow proficiencies.

[Dr. Weasel]

Travel gets you useless spells.

Travel gets you useless spells? Travel? Useless?

Usually the Travel domain is used as a demonstration of what a good domain looks like. Nearly all its spells are either not on the Cleric list or are gained before appearing on the Cleric list. Its ability grants immunity to quite a few of the Wizard battlefield control spells. Even the spells which do appear on the base Cleric list are useful, such as Find the Path.

[Edit] It looks like this post may have been a response to a typo. Huh.

Oh, and Ravenkith, War really is a rather weak domain as the strong-point you use to justify it is incredibly situational and all the spells are available to every other Cleric around. If you're really that paranoid about losing your Divine Power, just ready two and use your domain spell for something useful from a better domain.

[Reel On, Love]

Fixed that last sentence for you.

I agree, trickery and travel are great.

Yes, I said travel was great: best way to get , oh, I don't know fly and teleport....reason enough to take the domain, IMHO.
Er, yeah, I meant useful.


But you need war with domain spontaneity just in case you run into someone who is built out to counterspell.
Uh, you're a cleric-archer. If someone tries to counterspell, shoot them with your bow.


If you've spent your one or two spells that you memorized, and they hit you with a gooc counterspell, you might end up in a bit of a spot of bother...

and as a cleric, you generally don't have spell slots to waste on multiple memorizations of such spells....
Do you mean Dispel, not counterspell? If he successfully dispels you (50%ish chance per spell, from an equal level caster), you can still shoot, just at a slightly reduced AB/damage. Oh, and GMW and MV aren't affected by targeted Dispel Magic, since the spells are cast on your weapons not on you.
(What's more, as soon as you can buy a Bead of Karma, your hours-long buffs are at +4 CL, so they aren't likely to dispel them anyway.)


just saying.

Of course, the war domain works even better if you aren't an elf, and don't get free bow proficiencies.
Then it's worth it, for an archer, yeah. Human with the War domain with Longbow as a favored weapon. Domain Spontaneity still isn't worth it, since the War domain has no unique spells until level 7, and then it just gets the Power Words.
War's a sucker's domain unless you really need that weapon proficiency.

[ravenkith]

:smallconfused:

Did he just call me a sucker....? Nahhhhhhhh.

But seriously, the DMs I run with argue that your gear is basically part of you, and, as such, a targeted dispell (thanks, I was using the wrong term, I've been running up a counterspell build) would work against GMW and MV.

That.....really sucks.

"Oh hey, I just went from being bad ass at combat...to ...not so much....HE HITS FOR HOW MUCH?"

No really, actual 'gameplay footage.' ^

Of course, if your DMs go with a different interpretation, then YMMV.

[Saph]

Either cleric or paladin could work, but with such an outrageously high set of ability scores (Point buy 64? Good grief!) I'd recommend a Paladin, because Paladins normally suffer so much from MAD. Having those stats will make MAD almost totally irrelevant, and you're not going to get the chance to do that very often.

For feats:

1st: Point Blank Shot
3rd: Precise Shot
6th: Rapid Shot/Manyshot
9th: Manyshot/Improved Manyshot
12th: Improved Precise Shot

There's also some alternate class feature from Complete Champion that lets you cast Paladin spells as swift action; grab it if it's compatible with the elven racial substitution levels.

Get a Bow of the Wintermoon, from the Magic Item Compendium. Millenial Chainmail would be nice too, if you can fit the True Believer feat in somewhere, and it would suit the whole Paladin concept very well.

- Saph

[Severedevil]

I hear some folk advocating Cleric, and some who like Ranger/Paladin... so how about a Ranger/Cleric --> Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)? Gets you decent spellcasting and you'll only lose one point of base attack bonus. Ranger 1/Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin could work nicely, for example. And since Prestige Paladin is a prestige class, you can multiclass freely back into Ranger or Cleric at will. You'll cast cleric spells at half your level + 2, which is respectable.

I would be amused by a Fighter/Cleric going into Prestige Ranger/Prestige Paladin, which you can do if you take the Nature domain, but I don't know how effective that would be. Notably, you'd lose the (6+int)x4 skills at first level, which to my mind is the big incentive to take ranger.

[Damionte]

Are Cleric and Palladin our only choices? Can't we use Ranger? As for build advice what books and variant options do you have availuable.

[ReluctantDragon]

Are Cleric and Palladin our only choices? Can't we use Ranger? As for build advice what books and variant options do you have availuable.


Yes, Paladin or Cleric are pretty much the only choices for now.

In terms of what's available, well, I'll be talking the DM into letting me use RotW, obviously. Outside of that, Completes, PHB 1&2, and feats from any source cover it.

As much as ranger would make sense, I'm not really feeling it for this character. Definitely going all the way divine hence cleric or paladin.

All the suggestions so far have been great. I really appreciate the responses here. Feel free to keep offering suggestions. I'll be looking for them.

[Damionte]

Either cleric or paladin could work, but with such an outrageously high set of ability scores (Point buy 64? Good grief!) I'd recommend a Paladin, because Paladins normally suffer so much from MAD. Having those stats will make MAD almost totally irrelevant, and you're not going to get the chance to do that very often.

For feats:

1st: Point Blank Shot
3rd: Precise Shot
6th: Rapid Shot/Manyshot
9th: Manyshot/Improved Manyshot
12th: Improved Precise Shot

There's also some alternate class feature from Complete Champion that lets you cast Paladin spells as swift action; grab it if it's compatible with the elven racial substitution levels.

Get a Bow of the Wintermoon, from the Magic Item Compendium. Millenial Chainmail would be nice too, if you can fit the True Believer feat in somewhere, and it would suit the whole Paladin concept very well.

- Saph


She's pretty much already hit the nail on the head. You have high stats, but not a lot of feats to work with. Keep it simple. She's already given you a good feat progression.


I hear some folk advocating Cleric, and some who like Ranger/Paladin... so how about a Ranger/Cleric --> Prestige Paladin? Gets you decent spellcasting and you'll only lose one point of base attack bonus. Ranger 1/Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin could work nicely, for example. And since Prestige Paladin is a prestige class, you can multiclass freely back into Ranger or Cleric at will. You'll cast cleric spells at half your level + 2, which is respectable.

I would be amused by a Fighter/Cleric going into Prestige Ranger/Prestige Paladin, which you can do if you take the Nature domain, but I don't know how effective that would be. Notably, you'd lose the (6+int)x4 skills at first level, which to my mind is the big incentive to take ranger.

The prestige variants on the core classes are a tough variant to sell. In order to include them you have to illiminate the core class. So no one can play normal Palladins when you include the Prestige Palladin. Your world would kind of have to be built around the concept in the first place. His probably is not.

For the OP: Rangers are a devine class. :p

If you go Palladin either stay a palladin or find a prestige class that will increase your base atatck bonus as well as your spell casting.

Most all around useful suggestion I can make is Cleric/10 Seeker of the Misty Isle/10. Non precision damage archers in all honesty kinda suck. Your archer ability won't be adding much to the parties capability, so going Palladin for the full base attack bonus won't help them much. You won't even be able to specialise to get a bit more damage out of your bow.

No your focus will be worth more to them if you go with the full devien casting of the cleric, while giving you a combat support role of archer when the group is fighting.

What is the rest of your party made up of? It would help to determine which way to advise you.