Start of initiative

[dejarnjc]

I'm surprised this has never come up before in my campaign but I have a quick question about when initiative starts.

I have a situation coming up in a session where an NPC, whom is in a rival adventuring band (of 4 NPCs), will likely be provoking one of my PCs (1 of 4 PCs) pretty overtly while both adventuring parties are in a tavern together. I fully expect the PC to react by either punching the NPC in the face or attempting to stab him with his spear so I just want to be prepared in how to adjudicate this.

So in this scenario we would have PC (Bob) and NPC (AutoBot). IF Bob and AutoBot are squaring off against each other, face to face while exchanging petty insults and Bob suddenly decides to punch AutoBot in the face, what happens?

Possible solutions
1) Call for initiative, highest initiative acts first, every character OTHER than Bob and Autobot have the surprised condition.
2) Bob gets 1 attack outside of initiative, roll attack and damage if it hits, then roll initiative afterwards as usual.
3) Call for initiative, no one is surprised as it's a tense situation. NPCs and PCs whom aren't named Bob or Autobot can't take aggressive actions as that would be metagaming (i.e. they don't know Bob is about to throw a punch).


My preferences are 1 or 3 and my gut tells me 1 is correct.

[sithlordnergal]

Personally, I would rule it as number 2. There's no real surprise going on here, as everyone is already tense and expects combat. Plus a surprise round can be pretty powerful, especially if Bob is an Assassin.

[Tanarii]

Call for initiative as soon as hostile action is announced. No surprise.

If the attacked or other parties win initiative over the attacker, they're just that fast to react to hostile action. They see or hear it coming. If they're Bob's allies, they might even intervene and pull Bob away before he can escalate, by grappling him and dragging him away.

Unless the DM decides otherwise*, surprise is for when one group of creatures is attempting to ambush another group of creatures when the action starts, and is a stealth vs all ambushed creatures (individually) passive perception check.

*for example, I allow Deception vs insight for ambushes in social situations. Not what you're describing, but more like "group of unsuspected assassins disguised as servants ambushes the PCs at a ball".

Edit: if Bob absolutely has the drop on everyone else, you can always give advantage to his initiative check. And if everyone except Autobot isn't expecting anything to go down (unlikely), you can give them all disadvantage. Handing out advantage or disadvantage when a situation calls for it is a DM's perogative.

But you definitely shouldn't give free attacks outside of combat. Ever.

And generally speaking, shouldn't have creatures be surprised unless there is a absolutely a chance they totally didn't see an attack coming and are completely caught off guard. And even then, it's generally fair to give them a check of some kind. Inability to take action at all is a huge thing.

In this case, with two people arguing, I can't see any way the other people around could possibly be surprised. Even needing disadvantage to their initiative isn't really needed.

[Mikal]

Personally I'd go with 1 unless the PCs specifically say they are preparing to back up Bob in the fight prior to initiative occurring, with everyone else in the surprised condition.

Neither bob nor AutoBot should be surprised, since they're both seasoned adventurers, and are in a tense standoff. Think of it like in the movies where someone throws a "surprise" punch but the other person sees it coming.

If you want to make it more chaotic, give everyone an insight roll (including the NPCs in the other adventuring party!) and set it against the highest init roll. If they make or surpass that init total than they're not surprised either.

Note the above is just how I'd rule it, not RAW. As was said before me, surprise is only for situations where one group is ambushed by another in stealth.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The absolute moment someone has decided to take hostile action, initiative. If the opponents have yet to recognize that they're about to get hit, have them do nothing different until the aggressive player's turn. This also means that if they player rolls high enough for initiative, the attack isn't just the start of the fight- it's surprising, meaning advantage on the hit.

[dejarnjc]

My only issue with this is, is that it feels weird to have a PC move 15+ feet and pull Bob away in the time it takes him to throw a punch. Kinda kills the verisimilitude for me.

Plus, if another PC is reacting to Bob's punch, it feels to me that only reaction type actions should be allowed.



Call for initiative as soon as hostile action is announced. No surprise.

If the attacked or other parties win initiative over the attacker, they're just that fast to react to hostile action. They see or hear it coming. If they're Bob's allies, they might even intervene and pull Bob away before he can escalate, by grappling him and dragging him away.

Unless the DM decides otherwise*, surprise is for when one group of creatures is attempting to ambush another group of creatures when the action starts, and is a stealth vs all ambushed creatures (individually) passive perception check.

*for example, I allow Deception vs insight for ambushes in social situations. Not what you're describing, but more like "group of unsuspected assassins disguised as servants ambushes the PCs at a ball".

[dejarnjc]

Personally I'd go with 1 unless the PCs specifically say they are preparing to back up Bob in the fight prior to initiative occurring, with everyone else in the surprised condition.

Neither bob nor AutoBot should be surprised, since they're both seasoned adventurers, and are in a tense standoff. Think of it like in the movies where someone throws a "surprise" punch but the other person sees it coming.

If you want to make it more chaotic, give everyone an insight roll (including the NPCs in the other adventuring party!) and set it against the highest init roll. If they make or surpass that init total than they're not surprised either.

Note the above is just how I'd rule it, not RAW. As was said before me, surprise is only for situations where one group is ambushed by another in stealth.

This is my thought so far as well but wanted to see if it was laid out clearly anywhere.

[Mikal]

My only issue with this is, is that it feels weird to have a PC move 15+ feet and pull Bob away in the time it takes him to throw a punch. Kinda kills the verisimilitude for me.

That's because you're seeing it as if it's all happening at once. In this case it isn't. The other PCs see that Bob has "that look in his eye" and intervene, arriving just as Bob starts to pull his arm back for his trademark sucker punch.


Plus, if another PC is reacting to Bob's punch, it feels to me that only reaction type actions should be allowed.

Except that you're conflating reacting to a situation with the reaction action. One is a general english term with broad meaning, the other is a game ability with specific triggers.

[ProsecutorGodot]

#3 is likely the most by the rules scenario. Surprise calls for stealth and for the surprised characters to not perceive a threat. Not only does AutoBot perceive a threat, but he's trying to create the issue to begin with. You could go for #1 if you feel like Bob would have a decent enough chance of sucker punching AutoBot without anyone else noticing but that seems unlikely considering this is happening in a tavern filled with at least 8 people, several of which are directly focused on this situation.

There's also an argument to be made for #2. It might not be in the rules at all but it's cool and the player would probably appreciate being able to go through with a sucker punch if they call for it.

[Tanarii]

My only issue with this is, is that it feels weird to have a PC move 15+ feet and pull Bob away in the time it takes him to throw a punch. Kinda kills the verisimilitude for me.

Plus, if another PC is reacting to Bob's punch, it feels to me that only reaction type actions should be allowed.
If they win initiative, they're just that fast. If you need to describe it, they see Bob go purple with, set himself for an attack, they understand a punch is coming. If Bob wins, he doesn't telegraph his attack.

[Marcloure]

If everyone is expecting a fight to break, I don't see why the others would be surprised. Even though is Bob who starts with the punch, maybe someone gets to move faster and act before that attack happens. Well, anyone around that is aware can see when someone readies an attack, even before that attack really happens, and thus they can act faster.

But, if the others aren't expecting a fight, aren't paying atention, or just don't want to make a move until the attack they can see coming connects, you can skip their first turn.

[Joe the Rat]

Roll initiative.

It's a tense situation, and with a decent read, you might expect violence.

Now, if it were the case that this is a highly inappropriate place to start a fight, have everyone roll Insight... against, oh, Bob's Passive Charisma - possibly Charisma (Deception) to see it coming. Anyone who misses this is Surprised. Anyone not paying attention to the exchange is surprised.

It's quite possible for everyone to move before Bob - in this case the party has an opportunity to stop Bob, or back up his move. The NPC and associate coterie can respond as well - anything from throwing the first punch themselves to taking defensive measures (Dodge action) to draw the attempt and look the victim.

[Marcloure]

Think of a movie scene where this guy goes for a fight, but his friends hold him before he can actually attack. That is his friends having higher initiative than the attacker.

[dejarnjc]

That's because you're seeing it as if it's all happening at once. In this case it isn't. The other PCs see that Bob has "that look in his eye" and intervene, arriving just as Bob starts to pull his arm back for his trademark sucker punch.



Except that you're conflating reacting to a situation with the reaction action. One is a general english term with broad meaning, the other is a game ability with specific triggers.

Eh feels too metagamey to me unless they're actively watching Bob for such behavior. I might allow some insight checks but a lot will depend on how the player s/characters are composing themselves. I don't think it's fair to just assume a character's plans are broadcasted on their face.

[Tanarii]

I don't think it's fair to just assume a character's plans are broadcasted on their face.Its not assumed. What's assumed is that a check determines that. The degree to which they give themselves away, telegraph their plans. And that check is the initiative check. (Note telegraphing your moves is an actual thing.)

If you really feel Bob should have an advantage over everyone else except Autobot, give those two advantage on their initiative and everyone else disadvantage. But (having thought on this more) Autobot should definitely get advantage as well. After all, he's intentionally provoking Bob. He should be ready to react, or possibly even decide to act a split second before Bob does.

[Laserlight]

> 3) Call for initiative, no one is surprised as it's a tense situation.

This is the way to go, except that someone who is not paying attention ("I'm over at the bar, hitting on the Jake the Bartender" or "I'm two tables over, quietly talking to the Mysterious Stranger In A Cowled Cloak") might have disadvantage on the initiative check or, possibly, be surprised. (None of my party would be at all surprised if our brawlers started a fight in a tavern).

By the way, you mention "stab him with a spear". I actually fought with a spear inside a house a few times, back in my SCA days; it's remarkably awkward, even in a room with little furniture and few people. I'd never try it in a busy tavern.

[Emay Ecks]

What I do in these situations, which isn't RAW, but it works for me:
Bob declares he would like to punch Autobot. Everyone rolls initiative. Combat immediately starts on whatever initiative Bob rolled. Anyone who beat Bob may still take reactions (as they spent their "action" doing an out of combat socialization/drink/use an object). Nobody is surprised, as this is a tense situation, though if it is truly out of the blue, then anyone besides Bob (or relevant individuals depending on the situation), is surprised and uses PHB surprised rules.

So lets say Bob rolls a 14, and Bob's party members roll a 17, 11, and 3. Autobot rolls a 19 and his party rolls a 12, 4, and 1. Autobot and Bob's party member with the 17 each have a reaction, and it is currently Bob's turn, which Bob has already declared he is making an attack. Other than that attack, Bob can do whatever he wants with his turn. Combat then proceeds in normal order as if we were on initiative 14, so Autobot's party member with 12 would go next.

I use this system to avoid situations where Bob declares an attack, loses initiative, and then the enemy moves away seemingly before anything has actually happened. Bob also isn't forced into taking an action he declared before combat had started after the situation has changed. Bob is currently taking an action, it should be his turn as he is taking an action.

[Tanarii]

The problem with starting combat with Bob winning initiative is you're always giving the players a free "I win initiative" button. You're allowing players to declare what happens, as opposed to what they intend to try and do.

Initiative determines who actually gets to go first fairly. The fiction can easily be figured out to follow from the mechanical resolution, no matter the result. And the mechanical resolution is there to prevent the players from just declaring something actually happens, as opposed to declaring their intent to try and do something.

[shadow_archmagi]

#3, for sure. No one is taken wholly off guard, so surprise doesn't make sense. The weirdness caused by going from narrative to combat time and getting a full turn in what should be a split-second is a necessary price to pay for having vaguely sane combat rules.

[Coffee_Dragon]

What I do in these situations, which isn't RAW, but it works for me:
Bob declares he would like to punch Autobot. Everyone rolls initiative. Combat immediately starts on whatever initiative Bob rolled.

Ugh, I really dislike this.

[Emay Ecks]

The problem with starting combat with Bob winning initiative is you're always giving the players a free "I win initiative" button. You're allowing players to declare what happens, as opposed to what they intend to try and do.

Initiative determines who actually gets to go first fairly. The fiction can easily be figured out to follow from the mechanical resolution, no matter the result. And the mechanical resolution is there to prevent the players from just declaring something actually happens, as opposed to declaring their intent to try and do something.

Who said the rule applies to only players? If Autobot decides to punch Bob first, we start on Autobot's initiative.

I also don't follow your logic with why allowing a player to declare an attack, and then follow through with making an attack roll, is an issue. Bob is declaring that he intends to attack, and I am letting it happen. What am I supposed to say, "No, Bob. You may want to attack, but everyone needs to roll initiative and then we all fight in that order. Hmm, what's that Bob? You say that no one has a good reason for all out combat until you punch someone, starting the fight? Bob stop making sense, and wait your turn for initiative. People are going to beat you up for actions you have yet to commit, welcome to Minority Report"

So lets say Bob gets frustrated and attacks Autobot, but Autobot wins initiative. We now have a dilemma, unless we treat the encounter like everyone but Bob is "surprised." Using surprise rules, Autobot can't do anything on his turn and Bob punches him, and then we continue turn order as normal (Bob effectively hit the "I win initiative" button).

Without surprise rules, if Autobot uses his turn to do absolutely anything besides continuing to harass Bob, Autobot has acted with knowledge of the future (Bob wants to punch him) which he doesn't have. This would be cheating. No character, PC or NPC, has the knowledge of the action another player will use once on their turn. You don't get to see what another character intends to do with their turn, so we should treat Bob as having taken no action to this point (which is the case). So we arrive at Bob's turn, and Bob attempts to punch Autobot. We then continue in initiative order as normal (this is my system as described, except I save time by skipping Autobot's turn).

[Easy_Lee]

Roll initiative first, then give Bob his free attack at the start of combat. Autobot isn't surprised, but if Autobot wins initiative, that might affect whether or not Bob has advantage on the attack depending on Bob's features.

The problem with doing initiative by the rules as written in this case is that it's clunky and unreasonable. Bob might decide to attack Autobot, but Autobot wins initiative. Now Autobot and all of his mates attack Bob, which is absolutely not how it works. This is why Rule 0 exists.

Rolling initiative the moment someone takes a hostile action and having that determine the order is designed for situations where both parties would attack each other on sight, such as a group of players encountering a troll. It's not for situations where someone decides to suddenly attack someone else. Surprise doesn't make sense either if Autobot has some idea that Bob might do that. So it's most reasonable here to roll initiative and then give Bob his free attack at the start of combat.

[Armored Walrus]

My preferences are 1 or 3 and my gut tells me 1 is correct.

I would say do 1 then. You've been offered a few RAW answers, which you've rejected.

It's your table, if that feels right for your table, do it. You don't need the forum's blessing.

[AHF]

This seems a bit like a Han/Greedo situation where both guys are arguing/provoking/threatening and on edge. Roll initiative. Han wins so he shoots first.

If you want Bob to get off a sucker punch for narrative reasons then override that by DM fiat and give him the auto-initiative win but this situation doesn't seem even close to anything resembling surprise as described in the PHB/DMG.

[mephnick]

Every time a player is given free attacks outside of initiative an angel loses its wings.

[Easy_Lee]

Every time a player is given free attacks outside of initiative an angel loses its wings.

I really don't understand why so many people on this forum have an intense dislike for players.

[DivisibleByZero]

You said yourself that he is overtly provoking him, which means he wants this to happen and is actively trying to make it so, which means he is fully prepared for it.
So you have your answer.

[Tanarii]

Who said the rule applies to only players? If Autobot decides to punch Bob first, we start on Autobot's initiative.Thats just as bad. Now the DM has an "I win" house rule.


I also don't follow your logic with why allowing a player to declare an attack, and then follow through with making an attack roll, is an issue.Just because the player declares an (intent to) attack doesn't mean they should get to declare they win the initiative.


What am I supposed to say, "No, Bob. You may want to attack, but everyone needs to roll initiative and then we all fight in that order. Hmm, what's that Bob? You say that no one has a good reason for all out combat until you punch someone, starting the fight? Bob stop making sense, and wait your turn for initiative. People are going to beat you up for actions you have yet to commit, welcome to Minority Report"If you honestly can't fit a description to the range of possible mechanical results, then either adjust the range of mechanical results in advance with advantage/disadvantage, or determine it by Fiat. But multiple people have already done so in this thread without changing up from the basic "roll initiative".

BTW, while I'm arguing against DM Fiat in this particular case, for multiple reasons, obviously I still recognize that's sometimes part of the DM's job. Determine something doesn't require a die roll to resolve. I just don't personally feel it should happen in this situation. I wouldn't do it as a DM, and I'd be upset if it happened in a game I was playing in, even if I was playing Bob. How do I know the DM won't just give somebody my PC is arguing with a free shot against me some time, even though I'm clearly ready for hostile action and just that quick?


I really don't understand why so many people on this forum have an intense dislike for players.Nice undirected ad hominem.

[Davrix]

So in this scenario we would have PC (Bob) and NPC (AutoBot). IF Bob and AutoBot are squaring off against each other, face to face while exchanging petty insults and Bob suddenly decides to punch AutoBot in the face, what happens?

This is pretty straight forward and something I've Dm'ed over before so I will offer you my method of how this works at my table.

Lets break it down.
The situtaion is tense and insults are being thrown around.
Someone decides to shoot... i mean punch first :)

If the NPC you have in question has a full stat block you simply need to determine if BoB surprises autobot.

As per the rules you role initiative and then determine if its a surprise round. So have them roll.

Now you can simply say whoever has the higher number wins this contest. If bob is higher, his punch has surprise. If auto-bot is higher then its a normal round and bob gets shunted to the top of the initiative order for the purpose of the rest of the combat. (this is providing that its just the two of them the whole fight)

This feels very luck based to me however so here is what i do.

I would set a dex save for the NPC to hit. I use the standard DC formula for spell saves for this, even if the character isn't trained as its more akin to a passive stat for my use only behind the screen. BoB's 8+Prof+Dex Or you can simply assignment a 12-15 DC for the check. Or you can simply assign a DC of 15 on avg and modify it up and down depending on the situation. This also sort of depends on the NPC. If hes a rogue with skills then yea he has a good chance of making it. if hes just some drunk meat head I might just let the player win and call surprise. But for the sake of your question lets assume there are no other factors at play here for this situation.

Roll initiative and write down the numbers of bob and autobot
Assign a DC / Have NPC roll a Dex save. On a fail the NPC is surprised and the player jumps to the top of the initiative order and continues his attack and its a surprise round. On a fail compare the initiative rolls. If the player is still higher then his attack may go through and you have him roll but its not a surprise round. If the NPC rolls higher for initiative and successfully made the dex save then the player's attack misses. I would probably word it like, he see's the punch coming a mile away and ducks to the side or his hand shoots up catching your fist in his palm. Something like that.

I prefer this method at least in my mind because its based on actual player stats. So it feels more real and less random dice god moment. I mean its still luck based but its not simply just around the simple initiative order. Your character stats have meaning and will effect the outcome.

[Easy_Lee]

Nice undirected ad hominem.

Examine the statement, "Every time a player is given free attacks outside of initiative an angel loses its wings."
Paraphrased: it's bad when players get free attacks outside of initiative.
Generalized: it's bad when players gain advantages for free.

The word "free" implies that attacks should not be free, that if a player is going to attack something then there should be some kind of cost / consequence / risk. Why? Why should every character action be opposed by the world around them? Why should every player action be opposed by the DM? This is called Antagonistic GMing, where the GM sets himself up in opposition to the players. This is where twitchy murderhobos come from.

The GM is not there to ensure the players "pay" for everything they do, and nor is it a bad thing when players find a way to gain utility. D&D is not a zero-sum game.

[bid]

Every time a monster is given free attacks outside of initiative an angel loses its wings.


I really don't understand why so many people on this forum have an intense dislike for monsters.
FTFY

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Stop baiting, Master Lee.

[Beelzebubba]

I've seen bar fights about to break out a few times during loud arguments, the energy in the room is palpable and literally everyone around them is on a razor's edge.

I've also seen a douche wind up to give a sucker punch and get popped before he even got his fist moving forward, because he telegraphed it so badly the other dude could throw a fast jab. Then, four or five people jumped between them before douche could land the sucker punch.

Roll initiative. Nobody's surprised. If one of those two doesn't win, narrate the wind-up and the faster reactions of the on-edge crowd.

[Easy_Lee]

FTFY

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Stop baiting, Master Lee.

I've seen monsters get "free" attacks by ambushing the players. I've also seen monsters do things before the players could react, even in situations where the players plausibly could react. But you know what, Bid? You're wrong. Monsters are fictional. Players are real. These things should not be compared as if they are in any way similar.

That said, we're getting off-topic. The OP had already made up his mind.

[Malifice]

Personally, I would rule it as number 2. There's no real surprise going on here, as everyone is already tense and expects combat. Plus a surprise round can be pretty powerful, especially if Bob is an Assassin.

Maybe you should read the rules. Both parties are aware of each other and it's fairly obvious hostilities are a very distinct probability.

They all roll initiative and act in turn order. No one is surprised.

[Easy_Lee]

Maybe you should read the rules. Both parties are aware of each other and it's fairly obvious hostilities are a very distinct probability.

They all roll initiative and act in turn order. No one is surprised.

As has been made abundantly obvious by now, everyone in this thread understands the rules. And more than a few of us, in this specific case, would rule differently. This is what Rule 0 is for. Not everyone is a rules-purist and nor should everyone be.

[Astofel]

The GM is not there to ensure the players "pay" for everything they do, and nor is it a bad thing when players find a way to gain utility. D&D is not a zero-sum game.

In general terms, you're absolutely right. In the specifics of this case, however, I disagree. To me, a player gaining utility would be something like a player saying "I reach into my pocket and throw a handful of sand at the bandit's face. A failed dex save later, and the bandit is blinded until the end of the player's next turn.

What's happening here, though, is that if Bob can attack outside of initiative, he gets an attack purely because he says he does. It's a lesser version of a player describing how they chop off a goblin's head without even making an attack roll. Initiative rolls are meant to resolve situations like this, just like attack and damage rolls are meant to resolve the cleaving of goblin necks.

[Easy_Lee]

In general terms, you're absolutely right. In the specifics of this case, however, I disagree. To me, a player gaining utility would be something like a player saying "I reach into my pocket and throw a handful of sand at the bandit's face. A failed dex save later, and the bandit is blinded until the end of the player's next turn.

What's happening here, though, is that if Bob can attack outside of initiative, he gets an attack purely because he says he does. It's a lesser version of a player describing how they chop off a goblin's head without even making an attack roll. Initiative rolls are meant to resolve situations like this, just like attack and damage rolls are meant to resolve the cleaving of goblin necks.

How often do the players start a fight by yelling at someone who's not hostile yet? In my experience, D&D fights usually happen between two units that will kill each other on sight. That's what initiative is made for as, barring surprise, either side might act first. But in a social setting where someone has to start the fight, the person who throws the first punch will indeed throw the first punch.

[Breashios]

Also consider that a game round is something like six seconds. Bob is going to be able to throw a bevy more than one punch. You can always describe Bob as taking the first swing, but allow the initiative to determine who has the potential to draw first blood. I think that is what is intended and keeps the action within the rules.

If someone is standing 15' away and you don't want to allow them to stop their friend from making that first swing, for sake of verisimilitude, you don't have to, but initiative does still determine who has the potential to do something consequential within the combat round.

[Malifice]

As has been made abundantly obvious by now, everyone in this thread understands the rules. And more than a few of us, in this specific case, would rule differently. This is what Rule 0 is for.

No, it's not what rule zero is for. You're invoking rule zero here, because you lack the imagination to tell a story.

The situation is clear. Two hostile parties are aware of each other (and hurling insults). One party declares a hostile act.

This is when the transition from [narrative time] to [combat] happens. At the moment of declaration.

Initiative is then rolled (an opposed Dexterity ability check to test the reaction speed of the parties) and turns are taken in order.

If the defender goes first (is quicker than the attacker, by virtue of his higher reflexes, as determined by the check you just asked him to make) he gets to act before the punch lands, maybe blocking the punch and then counterpunching, ducking it and casting a spell in return, or being so damn fast, he snaps out a punch of his own before the other guy can finish his own strike, or whatever.

There is no (read: NO) need to invoke rule zero here. This is a situation expressly contemplated by the rules; two parties to a conflict, aware of each other, and hostilities break out.
------------------------------

Consider a situation where the defenders (PCs) are unaware of the attackers (Bandits hiding in a forest, who have prepared an ambush). To complicate it even more lets give one of the PC defenders the Alert feat meaning he cant be surprised.

DM: (After comparing the Steath check results of the Bandits to the PCs passive Perception and determining the PCs are unaware of the bandits) 'As you enter the forest clearing, the twang of bowstrings can be heard from all around you, and black fletched arrows fill the air, wizzing through the clearing... you've been ambushed! Roll initiative; you're all surprised aside from you [PC 1 with the Alert feat].

PC 1 (Wizard) rolls 20 for initiative. Bandits roll 10. Other PCs roll 15 (Barbarian, PC 2), 14 (Monk PC 3) and 1 (Eldritch knight, PC 4) in that order.

DM: 'OK PC 1; its your turn. You're not surprised due to your feat. There are arrows coming from everywhere; what do you do?'
PC 1: 'Can I see any enemies?'
DM: 'No, they're still hidden, they wont reveal their postions till after their attacks are resolved (hit or miss). You can take the Search action if you want to scan for them?'
PC 1: 'Hmm no they'll reveal themselves soon enough; I'll instead cast Mirror image, and move to a nearby tree to take cover!'
DM: 'Cool. Acting with blinding speed the instant you get that all too familiar tingling in your spine, you weave the magic around you and cast your spell, scrambling to a tree for safety. PC 2; its now your turn. You're surprised so you can take no actions or move. Your turn ends and now you can take reactions.
PC 2: Hang on DM; Im a 7th level Barbarian. I have the Feral instinct class feature that lets me avoid being surprised; as long as I enter rage on my first turn. I'll do just that!
DM: 'Awesome! Ok Thogg, you scream in rage and froth at the mouth in anger! Thats your bonus action. Now what?'
PC 2: 'Seeing as I cant see them yet, I race towards the other side of the clearing hoping thats where they are, and take the Dodge action'
DM: 'Cool; you scream like a madman and leap forward, zig zagging as you go, arrows landing all about you. PC 3; its your Monks turn. You're surprised cant act or move, and your turn ends. You can now take reactions'
PC 3: 'Doh!
DM: 'Now its the bandits turn.' (Makes 12 x Bow attacks for the Bandits against the PCs - 2 for each multi-attacking bandit; places their minis on the board to show where they are seeing as the Bandits have now revealed themselves). PC 4 (the EK) attempts to cast the Shield spell in response as a reaction; however the DM stops him as PC 4 is still surprised and thus still cannot take reactions. PC 3 is a Monk and he uses his deflect arrows; he had his turn before the Bandits, and can take reactions. He deflects an arrow.

Etc.

See how it works? There is nothing wrong with the rules mate. There is no need to invoke rule 0 here.

I would quit any campaign where initiative is reduced to being 'the first guy to scream I ATTACK!' each combat.

[Malifice]

I've seen monsters get "free" attacks by ambushing the players.

And they shouldnt. Unless the PCs are surprised (unaware of the monsters), in which case there are rules for that.

[Easy_Lee]

And they shouldnt. Unless the PCs are surprised (unaware of the monsters), in which case there are rules for that.

Malifice, you're a rules-purist. You don't like anything that doesn't adhere perfectly to the RAW. But not everyone plays that way. In fact, it's not enough to say that not everyone plays that way. Most tables don't play that way. And that isn't a bad thing, either. It simply is.

[BoutsofInsanity]

It depends.

We have rules in the game that give us tools to allow us to judge the situation. Remember, the rules aren't meant to be taken like a video game where we have to follow them directly. They are guides on how to base our decisions within the story we are telling together.

We have a couple of things that we can use to help us in this situation.

1. Initiative
2. Insight, Bluff, Perception, and Intimidate
3. Our own insights on how we react to immanent danger.

First things first, determine if Bob and Auto-bot both want to broadcast their intent to attack. If neither wants the other surprised ("Put up your dukes cur, Ill have an apology from thy wretched mouth") then just roll initiative and start.

If either character wants to sucker punch the other and get a free attack we have a few things we can do.

First bluff, intimidate, or a wisdom save. These can determine how the characters are playing the mental game at each other. Bluff to offensively lull the other character into a false sense of security. If either character successfully bluffs the other characters into believing they aren't going to escalate into violence versus the opponents insight, they should get surprise attack and than initiative is rolled. If they both try to bluff and succeed, just default to both rolling initiative and going for it.

Wisdom and Intimidate are there to defend against insight. Make a Wisdom save to not give anything away. Go blank face and deny your opponent the ability to read you. (Diplomacy would work here too.) This removes their ability to potentially gain some advantage over you by not showing whats about to go down behind your eyes.

Intimidate could be used for the above purpose by just being scary. It can also be used to cause the other character to back down or be cowed enough that they don't want violence anymore.

Insight should be used to prevent from being surprised. I would also allow that if you insight the enemy, you might have advantage on initiative because you knew the enemy was going to attack before they knew themselves. So you reacted just a bit faster than them.

Reward players for being cool and awesome. Enemies too.

The badass barbarian who has been in tons of brawls before, should get advantage in this situation of reading when violence is about to go down by being familiar with the situation. The cleric who grew up in the monestary, might get disadvantage because she has been drinking and not been in a bar fight before. Talk with players and see what they want to do. Than use the rules given to create cool things that players can do.

The player that bluffs feels like a baller Han Solo. The player who successfully reads the opponent gets to feel like a awesome warrior who called the bad guy on their **** in their mind. How great is that?

The damn samurai who has been in countless of sword draw standoffs who uses insight to gain advantage of attacking with a sheathed sword feels rewarded for having this cool character.

This moment should create tension, reward cool character traits, and challenge players to use their tools to overcome an enemy or social challenge.

[Malifice]

Malifice, you're a rules-purist. You don't like anything that doesn't adhere perfectly to the RAW.

I find this comment to be more than slightly hypocritical coming from you, in light of your support of the 'cofee-lock' spamming repeat 1 hour rests and going on hourly 5 minute jogs. Pretty sure your defence of that 'strategy' was the RAW.

My argument against it was that its an intentional abuse/ gaming of the rest mechanics.

In this case, the rules are clear, and there is no reason to deviate from them. Otherwise your game decends into a game of 'He who declares he attacks first, gets a free round of combat, before anyone can act.'

Would you apply the same ruling if you were DMing, and while describing a room and its inhabitants your PCs just entered, one of them blurts out 'I fireball the monsters.' granting him a free round worth of actions, simply on account of the fact he blurted it out before you did?

Or would you instead say 'Your Wizard starts to cast a spell, and the monsters reach for their weapons!' ask for initiative, and resolve turns in order, as the rules direct you to?

Is your ruling consistent? As in: The first person to say 'I attack' gets to automatically win initiative (or even get a 'surprise round' off) even in sitations where the other party are not only fully aware of the attacker, but also fully aware that hostilities are likely?

If so, I would quit the game. Its a personal bugbear of mine.

[bid]

Would you apply the same ruling if you were DMing, and while describing a room and its inhabitants your PCs just entered, one of them blurts out 'I fireball the monsters.' granting him a free round worth of actions, simply on account of the fact he blurted it out before you did?
No, of course not.
The monsters would throw a fireball at the party at the start of every encounter.
You have to be consistent here.

[strangebloke]

Malifice, you're a rules-purist. You don't like anything that doesn't adhere perfectly to the RAW. But not everyone plays that way. In fact, it's not enough to say that not everyone plays that way. Most tables don't play that way. And that isn't a bad thing, either. It simply is.

Eh, I'm with Mal here. Giving monsters a free attack 'because it is cinematic' is kind of a red flag in my book. There's no arguing that people do it, I just find it very annoying. Let me use my observant feat, for crying out loud, that is what it is there for.

[Malifice]

A reasonable house rule might be that a person who declares the first hostile action gets advantage on the initiative check.

Maybe balanced out with a separate rule that the person declaring that hostile action then has to (on his turn) carry out the action declared if at all possible.

I don't see any reason to use it, but it does model a PC swinging first unexpectedly well, while still giving the opponent a chance to get a swing in first.

[JackPhoenix]

I've seen monsters get "free" attacks by ambushing the players. I've also seen monsters do things before the players could react, even in situations where the players plausibly could react. But you know what, Bid? You're wrong. Monsters are fictional. Players are real. These things should not be compared as if they are in any way similar.

Player characters are fictional. The DM is real. It's exactly the same.

None of the players, DM included, should get attacks outside initiative.

[seventh_soul]

This exact situation is why my charecter has alert. No matter what it is he cant be suprised. Also +5 initiative is amazing with assasin.

[Vogie]

This exact situation is why my charecter has alert. No matter what it is he cant be suprised. Also +5 initiative is amazing with assasin.

The fact that the Alert feat, Surprised Condition, and Assassinate Rogue features exist shows how important it's supposed to be.


If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

It should be less of a question of "should the party roll initiative", and more of "are the other members of the party surprised"

[Coffee_Dragon]

This exact situation is why my charecter has alert. No matter what it is he cant be suprised. Also +5 initiative is amazing with assasin.

Doesn't help if you get 22 and the DM starts combat on initiative 20 because that's what the enemy archers got and he thinks logically them loosing their arrows would be the first thing that happens in combat. This is functionally identical to your initiative being minus five billion.

[Pex]

I really don't understand why so many people on this forum have an intense dislike for players.

They feel a need to compensate because they think I have an intense dislike for DMs.

[Malifice]

I just loathe 'attacks outside of initiative.'

Perception tells me if I notice the threat. Occasionally insight tells me the same. Alert feat helps me avoid being surprised (I notice subtle signs of impending danger at the last moment, or have an uncanny danger sense)

Dexterity tells me if Im quick enough to react to the threat. As do several class features and a feat.

We need to bear in mind that actions in combat are simultaneous and occurring at the same time, and that the turn based cyclical nature of the combat sequence is an abstraction. I cant imagine a scenario barring an extreme outlier where I would be comfortable resolving a hostile action 'outside' combat sequencing.

To take an extreme example, an Assassin is trying to assassinate an Alert PC (reading a book via the light spell in the darkness). The Assassin has snuck up on the PC to within 40', and is hidden, when the DM decides he will launch a crossbow attack at the oblivious PC.

The DM rightly calls for initiative. Noting the PC cant be surprised due to the Alert feat (the PC is hyper alert), he states 'As you sit there reading your book, you [sense a hostile presense watching you/ hear the click of a crossbow bolt being loaded from the darkness around you/ etc]. Roll initiative'

The PC rolls 21; the Assassin lucks out and rolls a 7. The PC gets to act on the limited information given to him by the DM. Its enough to know there is a threat incoming, but not what that threat is, or where it it comes from. The assassin is still hidden, but the PC is so hyper Alert, and rolled so well on his opposed Dexterity ability check (is also super fast), he gets to be able to act before the assassins shot lands.

He's just that awesome.

The initiative system works even in extreme outliers like this. Im really struggling to find a scenario where it doesnt work, simply with a narrative approach.

[Breashios]

Doesn't help if you get 22 and the DM starts combat on initiative 20 because that's what the enemy archers got and he thinks logically them loosing their arrows would be the first thing that happens in combat. This is functionally identical to your initiative being minus five billion.

Reference: In six seconds I can get two targeted shots off with my compound bow. I can get three wild shots off in that amount of time, and I am far from an expert, just an occasional season bow hunter.

Now in an ambush situation, let your DM know they can say they intend to shoot first and the first of the ambushers to make that attempt may very well do so, however, if that specific ambusher does not have the highest initiative that shot automatically does not have the potential to do damage. He’ll take another shot on his initiative and this will be his first “attack”.

If he does have the highest initiative then he can make that first shot his attack and if he hits do damage. The other ambushers have to either wait for that first shot, a signal or a trigger event which each may interpret differently. Further not everyone behind cover will have what they consider a good angle on their intended target (or have a leaf in their sightline, a fly distracting them) and may have to shift, even if ever so slightly, before making their attack. Given these factors it is very likely a real life encounter will appear to follow the rules as written fairly well, with each individual getting their action (or gaining their reactions, if surprised) in initiative order.

Edit: I am only making this suggestion when someone insists the first shot is what "alerts" the enemy. It is a fairly common movie trope to see the ambush start with an arrow hitting a tree near the hero.

In general someone could begin to act as the shot is still being pointed at its target, due to the rustle of clothing, the creak of the bow or contact with cover, etc.

[Vogie]

Doesn't help if you get 22 and the DM starts combat on initiative 20 because that's what the enemy archers got and he thinks logically them loosing their arrows would be the first thing that happens in combat. This is functionally identical to your initiative being minus five billion.

In that case, the problem isn't the initiative system... it's the DM just making things up.

[Telwar]

I really don't understand why so many people on this forum have an intense dislike for players.

I'm a player, and I understand that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And in this case, the gander has a lot more expendable resources than the goose, and I don't particularly feel like starting every damn combat with a surprise fireball or psychic blast into my party.

Hell, my DM tried this ages ago, and then we had a discussion that didn't quite result in the keying of his car, and we decided the initiative system handled that Just Fine Thank You.

If you want to start a fight in an encounter, declare it, roll initiative, and invest in things that let you go first. There's no need for an automatic free attack, for anybody. If you want to do that, more power to you, but it's neither necessary nor wise.

[bc56]

What really matters is not whether the other PCs know that Bob is about to throw a punch, but whether AB expects Bob to punch him. If not, I would rule that everyone except Bob is surprised, and if so, I would rule that everyone except Bob and AB are surprised (but AB would probably take the dodge action if he won initiative.)

You might want to rule that if Bob suddenly starts a fight but it was expected, he automatically wins initiative, but no one is surprised.

[ad_hoc]

I agree with everyone who is using the rules as is. They are there to provide everyone with agency and also to avoid any non-combat situation immediately turning into one by the person who shouts first.

A similar conversation happens over attacking while hidden.

At my table the resolution of each scene goes like this:

1. The DM sets the scene.
2. The DM asks each player at the table what they would like to do.
3. Initiative is rolled if hostilities are declared at any time.
3a. We use the Greyhawk Initiative so I go back to #2 once hostilities are apparent. Sometimes this happens by NPCs at the very start of the scene.

If initiative is involved then resolution happens in that order. If initiative is not involved then I determine the outcome arbitrarily, usually by just going around the table. In either case everyone declares what they are doing first and then everything is resolved. This makes every player involved in the scene, even if it is just 'to look out for approaching enemies'. The only difference between combat and non-combat time is the time involved. 6 seconds versus 10 minutes (usually).

[Easy_Lee]

If you want to start a fight in an encounter, declare it, roll initiative, and invest in things that let you go first. There's no need for an automatic free attack, for anybody. If you want to do that, more power to you, but it's neither necessary nor wise.

The OP wasn't talking about starting every fight with free actions. He asked a question about a specific situation where the initiative system did not seem to fit. This thread is divided into two camps: those of us encouraging the OP to rule it the way that makes sense to him, and those who insist that the OP use the initiative system. Some seem to believe that the RAW initiative system needs to be maintained at all times.

You've equivocated a specific and likely one-time breach of the initiative system with permanently throwing it out the window. These aren't the same thing.

The OP hasn't replied to this thread since page 1. He already chose his answer.

[sir_argo]

We had a very similar discussion about a year ago -> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518052-Setting-a-reaction-before-combat

After that discussion, I've come to the belief that hostilities have already started even if you haven't attacked yet. Technically, initiative has started (but the DM is holding off on the actual die roll). What is happening is everyone has readied an action. In this thread's scenario, the two main guys start hurling insults at each other--hostilities started. Wart the Monk in the corner hears the two guys throwing insults and readies an action. He's saying to himself, "If anyone starts throwing a punch, I'm doing a flying kick into that guy's face." That's a readied action. He is by RAW, at the ready. So is everyone else. Everyone has prepared an action and is just holding off. The problem with this is that it is cumbersome and nobody wants to run the start of a combat that way. So I'd recommend a house rule. I like the idea of the guy who breaks the stand off going first, but I don't want to give him some arbitrary advantage such as, "automatically first on the initiative list." That a gift that keeps on giving throughout the combat. Instead, I'd only let him go first on the 1st round and then on the later rounds, he'd assume his spot as rolled on initiative. So let's just say for the sake of argument that Bob punches first and his initiative roll puts him fifth on the initiative order. I'd let Bob go first (doesn't count as surprise) on round 1, then characters 1-4 would take their turns, then on turn 5 where Bob would normally go I'd skip. Proceed with everyone else and finish out round 1. Then on round 2, Bob would assume his regular spot (5th) in the initiative order.

Somebody suggested that the guy who punches first could just get advantage on the initiative. I think that's also a good idea. Pro is that it maintains the possibility that even though he tried to punch first, someone else might be so fast that they beat him (think two gunfighters in a quickdraw contest). The Con is that the advantage to initiative helps that guy out for the rest of the combat... I'm not keen on that.

[JackPhoenix]

Technically, initiative has started (but the DM is holding off on the actual die roll). What is happening is everyone has readied an action. In this thread's scenario, the two main guys start hurling insults at each other--hostilities started. Wart the Wizard in the corner hears the two guys throwing insults and readies an action. He's saying to himself, "If anyone starts throwing a punch, I'm casting Sleep on that guy." That's a readied action. He is by RAW, at the ready.

That's not how readying a spell works, though. You start casting on your turn as normal and finish it later as a reaction.

[sir_argo]

That's not how readying a spell works, though. You start casting on your turn as normal and finish it later as a reaction.

Ugh... yeah... I shouldn't have used a caster as the example. I'll edit the message and change it to a non-caster.

[sithlordnergal]

Maybe you should read the rules. Both parties are aware of each other and it's fairly obvious hostilities are a very distinct probability.

They all roll initiative and act in turn order. No one is surprised.

I know the rules very well, however in this case I would call an audible because the rules make zero sense in this edge case. Since there is no surprise at combat starting, there'd be no surprise round. But at tue same time, this sounds like a sucker punch to me. So Bob should get that one strike in.

That said, thinking about it I can see myself calling for intative first so as not to break the flow of things. But even if I did call for initative, the player throwing the punch gets to throw that punch before anyone else goes because his action is what starts the combat.

[Vogie]

And if Bob's character was Superman, who can suckerpunch the Flash, then yes, that would make sense.

Except, if you're playing D&D, there are going to be levels of power outside of Bob-speed. It may be a suckerpunch, but:

his teammates may see him going for it, and preemptively strap their shield on
the barkeep may realize what's about to happen, and scurry out of thrown-stool range
the Autobot may anticipate it and be preparing something, even though his back is to Bob
Greedo, as-of-yet-unmentioned sniper waiting outside tavern, in the bushes, shoots first

[Gullintanni]

The OP wasn't talking about starting every fight with free actions. He asked a question about a specific situation where the initiative system did not seem to fit. This thread is divided into two camps: those of us encouraging the OP to rule it the way that makes sense to him, and those who insist that the OP use the initiative system. Some seem to believe that the RAW initiative system needs to be maintained at all times.

You've equivocated a specific and likely one-time breach of the initiative system with permanently throwing it out the window. These aren't the same thing.

The OP hasn't replied to this thread since page 1. He already chose his answer.

I believe those in the "Use Initiative" camp are arguing that initiative does fit, and that situations like this are, in fact, exactly what the initiative system was designed to adjudicate. The rider argument they are making is that initiative does not preclude narrative verisimilitude the way the OP seems to insist.

I'm in the roll for initiative camp. Hostile declaration is the trigger for initiative checks, and whoever wins initiative gets to make an action in response to Bob winding up for a punch, or drawing a weapon. If Bob rolls a 1 for initiative and AutoBot rolls a 20, then;

Bob readies his weapon in full view of lookers-on. His opponent snaps to attention, muscle memory taking over, as a weapon appears deftly in AutoBot's hand. To Bob's disbelief, he finds himself immediately on the defensive.

If one of the other party members wins initiatve;

Jane sees Bob reaching for his weapon. With a few hastily muttered syllables, and a quick gesture, she shows Bob her appreciation for his hostility with a torrent of arcane fire. He rolls to save.

[Easy_Lee]

I believe those in the "Use Initiative" camp are arguing that initiative does fit, and that situations like this are, in fact, exactly what the initiative system was designed to adjudicate. [/B]

Your method of interpreting this is just one of an infinite number of interpretations. Since we're talking about a game here, there is no definitive method for determining which interpretation is correct, or even most useful. People often act as though following the RAW and RAW only, or RAW plus RAI, gives them some sort of moral superiority. It doesn't. Nobody follows every rule and no one even tries to follow all of the RAI.

The OP already chose his interpretation. The fact that detractors continue to restate their own ideas of why initiative could still fit is irrelevant to how the OP is going to rule.

It's not a bad thing if we don't all play the game the same way.

[ad_hoc]

I believe those in the "Use Initiative" camp are arguing that initiative does fit, and that situations like this are, in fact, exactly what the initiative system was designed to adjudicate. The rider argument they are making is that initiative does not preclude narrative verisimilitude the way the OP seems to insist.

I'm in the roll for initiative camp. Hostile declaration is the trigger for initiative checks, and whoever wins initiative gets to make an action in response to Bob winding up for a punch, or drawing a weapon. If Bob rolls a 1 for initiative and AutoBot rolls a 20, then;

Bob readies his weapon in full view of lookers-on. His opponent snaps to attention, muscle memory taking over, as a weapon appears deftly in AutoBot's hand. To Bob's disbelief, he finds himself immediately on the defensive.

If one of the other party members wins initiatve;

Jane sees Bob reaching for his weapon. With a few hastily muttered syllables, and a quick gesture, she shows Bob her appreciation for his hostility with a torrent of arcane fire. He rolls to save.

I agree.

The easiest thing to do is to turn it around.

'While you are arguing with Autobot the NPC he makes a gesture and speaks a word, everybody make a Dex Saving Throw, you've been hit by a Fireball. Okay, now everyone roll initiative.'

I would not play in a game like that.

[Armored Walrus]

Your method of interpreting this is just one of an infinite number of interpretations. Since we're talking about a game here, there is no definitive method for determining which interpretation is correct, or even most useful. People often act as though following the RAW and RAW only, or RAW plus RAI, gives them some sort of moral superiority. It doesn't. Nobody follows every rule and no one even tries to follow all of the RAI.

The OP already chose his interpretation. The fact that detractors continue to restate their own ideas of why initiative could still fit is irrelevant to how the OP is going to rule.

It's not a bad thing if we don't all play the game the same way.

This is why topics that go beyond one page in length are rarely worth reading beyond the first five or so posts. Usually the question is asked and answered adequately for anyone's needs in that length of time, and everything else is posturing. We don't play our games on the forums (unless we do) and no one needs the forum's permission for any ruling they want to make with their own game.

[Easy_Lee]

This is why topics that go beyond one page in length are rarely worth reading beyond the first five or so posts. Usually the question is asked and answered adequately for anyone's needs in that length of time, and everything else is posturing. We don't play our games on the forums (unless we do) and no one needs the forum's permission for any ruling they want to make with their own game.

Bolded for emphasis and I agree completely.

[Gullintanni]

Your method of interpreting this is just one of an infinite number of interpretations. Since we're talking about a game here, there is no definitive method for determining which interpretation is correct, or even most useful. People often act as though following the RAW and RAW only, or RAW plus RAI, gives them some sort of moral superiority. It doesn't. Nobody follows every rule and no one even tries to follow all of the RAI.

The OP already chose his interpretation. The fact that detractors continue to restate their own ideas of why initiative could still fit is irrelevant to how the OP is going to rule.

It's not a bad thing if we don't all play the game the same way.

My method of interpreting is consistent with RAW. The question was, "When does initiative start", and the answer is one of two things:

1) When the rules say it does; or,
2) Whenever you want it to.

In the former case, the exercise is about determining what the rules say, and how to best apply them to the situation. In the latter case, there's no reason to ask the question, because you're making up rules as you go along anyway. I happen to agree that playing by the rules doesn't always yield the most exciting outcome, and the DM can run his or her game however they see fit. Generally speaking though, rules questions get rules answers. :smallsigh:

[Malifice]

I know the rules very well, however in this case I would call an audible because the rules make zero sense in this edge case. Since there is no surprise at combat starting, there'd be no surprise round. But at tue same time, this sounds like a sucker punch to me. So Bob should get that one strike in.

No he should not.

Not without first winning an opposed Dexterity check to see if he is fast enough. He may have a Dexterity of 8 and be facing down someone with near superhuman reflexes and Dexterity of 20.

You know; an initiative check.

I assure you if I was facing down a world class boxer or Bruce Lee face to face and threw a sucker punch, he's probably gonna land one on me first.

[Tanarii]

Somebody suggested that the guy who punches first could just get advantage on the initiative. I think that's also a good idea. Pro is that it maintains the possibility that even though he tried to punch first, someone else might be so fast that they beat him (think two gunfighters in a quickdraw contest). The Con is that the advantage to initiative helps that guy out for the rest of the combat... I'm not keen on that.
Initiative is cyclic. If someone acts first in the first round, they don't have any 'helps that guy out' after that. They just get their next turn in order.

As he person that made this suggestion, I wouldn't personally give Bob or Autobot advantage. I might give some other the other folk around disadvantage (see below). But a 5e DM is supposed to use that fairly liberally if they think it's warranted, so that'd be on the DM to decide if they wanted to, which is why I suggested it.

Ignoring initiative completely or playing shenanigans with it or making people surprised for threats they're aware of, while not a house rule, because a DM determines surprise and also determines when a check isn't required, is still going to be considered poor form by many people. And will almost certainly piss off players when it's turned around and used against them.

Here's how I personally judge advantage or disadvantage on initiative:

Advantage on initiative: when someone completely has the drop on everyone else, but everyone is aware they're a threat. This is basically how I handle a "ready outside of combat". I try not to do it too much, and can replace surprise entirely if the PCs got the drop on an entire party but wants to negotiate instead of ambush, with weapons pointed at them. Or more commonly the NPCs do this to PCs. PCs tend to be quicker to kill than NPCs.

Disdvantage on initiative: peripherally aware someone is a threat, but distracted. In this case, any NPCs or Pcs that were busy chatting up the bar maid instead of paying attention to the escalating fight.

In other words, advantage is getting the drop on someone, but not surprise, which is a somewhat hard combination to pull off unless you willingly sacrifice surprise. Disadvantage you just have to be distracted from an immediate threat.

(Edit: as a side note, I'm aware that getting advantage instead of surprise may be incidentally advantageous in terms of potentially instead beating an enemy's initiative that would have been able to take reactions due to winning initiative on a straight roll. Considering the enemy gets to take an action if you sacrifice surprise now to negotiate first, I consider that a fair trade. Especially because it encourages talking instead of always just shooting from the hip.)

[sithlordnergal]

No he should not.

Not without first winning an opposed Dexterity check to see if he is fast enough. He may have a Dexterity of 8 and be facing down someone with near superhuman reflexes and Dexterity of 20.

You know; an initiative check.

I assure you if I was facing down a world class boxer or Bruce Lee face to face and threw a sucker punch, he's probably gonna land one on me first.

You might not, but I feel like if someone just as well trained Bruce Lee tried it they would get the jump on him and make that first strike. Since Bob is better trained then us, I would say he can get that first strike in. Especially since this is in a tavern where, unless you are in a place with lax laws, most people do not expect harsh words to turn into blood shed. This isn't a dungeon, where you expect everything wants to kill you. This is a city, where you generally aren't allowed to start random fights like this.

Now, does that mean everyone can always start combat like this? Well...again, this is an edge case where I feel the initative rules are clunky. So no, not every combat encounter can start this way.

Also, because I saw it mentioned, I would only allow for a melee attack in this sort of edge case. Why? Because unless you're using Subtle Spell, spells are telegraphed enough that not only is there a spell designed to pre-emptivly counter your spell before you even finish casting your spell, but you can also choose to take a reaction to discover the type of spell being cast.

There is no similar thing for melee attacks, there is no reaction that can just stop a melee attack like that. Which tells me punch/stabbing/slashing a guy in the face is a bit faster then hurling a firebolt.

EDIT: Also, letting Bob throw that first punch in the city with laws against tavern fights makes it much harder for the players to argue with me when the guard comes to toss them in jail. I can simply say "Bob struck first", and no-one can really argue because Bob did, indeed, strike first.

[Tanarii]

Standoffs where angry people are facing down each other, and one decides to take it to the next level and initiate an action that needs to be adjudicated under the combat rules, aren't an edge case.

[JackPhoenix]

Standoffs where angry people are facing down each other, and one decides to take it to the next level and initiate an action that needs to be adjudicated under the combat rules, aren't an edge case.

Speaking of standoffs, isn't this exactly how duels in westerns go? The bad guy reaches for his gun, but the hero can draw and shoot faster (i.e. bad guy declares attack, initiative is rolled, hero wins and attacks first, and as the enemy reached for the gun first, it counts as self-defense)

[Tanarii]

Speaking of standoffs, isn't this exactly how duels in westerns go? The bad guy reaches for his gun, but the hero can draw and shoot faster (i.e. bad guy declares attack, initiative is rolled, hero wins and attacks first, and as the enemy reached for the gun first, it counts as self-defense)Yup.

Other common fiction is two guys arguing, and right as the one guy goes red in the face and winds up to deck the guy antagonizing him, all his friends grab him and pull him away. Or maybe they do that after the first punch lands. Depends on initiative.

I do think it's fair to give anyone only half paying attention disadvantage on initiative.

I'm assuming everyone is in the fight btw. If the PC and NPC party are on two opposite corners of the room and the two guys are arguing at the bar, then they might not even be in the fight. It could be like Firefly when River is brawling, and the group looks over and Jayne says "hey a tussle."

[Astofel]

While I'm normally on the side of 'Roll for initiative', the mention of subtle spell brings up some complications. What if Bob is a sorcerer, and instead of throwing a punch he instead decides to cast Subtle Thunderwave? Thunderwave only has V and S components, which Subtle removes, so unlike throwing a punch where Bob might draw back his fist, there's no warning that anything is coming until people are already flying across the room. In this admittedly unlikely case, I'd allow for Bob to perhaps auto-win initiative or get surprise on everyone else.

[Easy_Lee]

While I'm normally on the side of 'Roll for initiative', the mention of subtle spell brings up some complications. What if Bob is a sorcerer, and instead of throwing a punch he instead decides to cast Subtle Thunderwave? Thunderwave only has V and S components, which Subtle removes, so unlike throwing a punch where Bob might draw back his fist, there's no warning that anything is coming until people are already flying across the room. In this admittedly unlikely case, I'd allow for Bob to perhaps auto-win initiative or get surprise on everyone else.

Subtle Hold Person, Sleep, or similar need give no indication that a spell was cast at all, let alone the identity of the caster. This is one more edge case (edge meaning it isn't two hostile, attack-on-sight groups spotting each other).

Can you handle this with the initiative system? Sure. Have people spend their turn doing whatever they were doing before or reacting to what just happened. But that's a slow and clunky way to handle something that should take five seconds of narration.

[mephnick]

Can you handle this with the initiative system?

Isn't this just a situation to use surprise and disadvantage on initiative? No one can act or move so the Thunderwave goes off..but those that went ahead in initiative may be able to act quick enough to do something as the spell goes off. It just requires the players to not metagame.

[Easy_Lee]

Isn't this just a situation to use surprise and disadvantage on initiative? No one can act or move so the Thunderwave goes off..but those that went ahead in initiative may be able to act quick enough to do something as the spell goes off. It just requires the players to not metagame.

Players aren't metagaming for trying to get the most out of the system. That isn't what metagaming means. If a thunderwave went off in real life, meaning it just emitted from something at the speed of sound with no warning, no creature on Earth could "act quick react quickly enough to do something."

Metagaming has a specific definition - acting on knowledge outside the game world. It's not a catch-all term for players being clever, which I suspect is what some DMs really mean when they complain about their players.

[Laurefindel]

Speaking of standoffs, isn't this exactly how duels in westerns go? The bad guy reaches for his gun, but the hero can draw and shoot faster (i.e. bad guy declares attack, initiative is rolled, hero wins and attacks first, and as the enemy reached for the gun first, it counts as self-defense)

Yes but in D&D, the bad guy reaches for his gun (triggering combat), then the hero (winning initiative) moves 30, kisses the saloon gal (rather generous free interaction), high-fives the barman as a bonus action, and then shoots before the bad guy completed his draw.

This is greatly exaggerated (and his free interaction probably goes to drawing his gun), but there are cases where the default initiative rules are iffy break suspension of disbelief.

[ad_hoc]

Yes but in D&D, the bad guy reaches for his gun (triggering combat), then the hero (winning initiative) moves 30, kisses the saloon gal (rather generous free interaction), high-fives the barman as a bonus action, and then shoots before the bad guy completed his draw.

This is greatly exaggerated (and his free interaction probably goes to drawing his gun), but there are cases where the default initiative rules are iffy break suspension of disbelief.

This is combat in general.

2 characters each attempt to attack each other. This is happening in the same round at the same time. One character is able to run 60ft and stab the other character before they shoot their bow because one was able to react slightly faster than the other.

It's the same thing.

[Malifice]

Yes but in D&D, the bad guy reaches for his gun (triggering combat), then the hero (winning initiative) moves 30, kisses the saloon gal (rather generous free interaction), high-fives the barman as a bonus action, and then shoots before the bad guy completed his draw.

No he doesn't.

The stop start cyclic nature of combat turns is an abstraction, with actions largely being simultaneous. The player character is actually moving 30' while bullets land all around him, and his appointment is shooting at him.

Those shots just get resolved on the opponents turn.

[Tanarii]

This is combat in general.

2 characters each attempt to attack each other. This is happening in the same round at the same time. One character is able to run 60ft and stab the other character before they shoot their bow because one was able to react slightly faster than the other.

It's the same thing.
Yeah. If thats your problem, you need to go back to older versions of D&D combat, where initiative only determined who did stuff first when there was a specific question to be resolved. But in general, it went simultaneous, or with an order of resolution (like missile, move, melee, casting). Slight variations from edition to edition, with AD&D 1e being the most complex.

2e Combat and Tactics screwed that up by changing things to the 'take your entire turn then next guy goes' method of individual initiative. And 3e ran with that. The artifacts of the system have been with us ever since. (Edit: or it might have been 2e individual initiative that did it. Its been a while.)

Its much easier to run, but less simulation-y. Of course the original way came from war games so calling it simulation is a stretch. But it did (generally) feel a bit less stop motion-y.