Durkon breaking free from Durkon*

[Falkos]

The vampire was custom made to fit exactly into Durkon's soul so it stands to reason that changing your soul, or changing yourself, could break free from the perfect fit and allow escape.

Changing oneself is incredibly difficult and I'd imagine even more so after death. I can hardly think of soul shattering changing events then A) the news that your long held belief that you held were banished and unable to return was false. That your banishment was officially reversed. Also that B) You are a father. The bond of parenthood changes everything.

My guess is that at least one piece of news will weaken the hold, while the other will allow a prison break. Recall that the high priest said the truth could serve a purpose.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it stands to reason that changing your soul, or changing yourself, could break free from the perfect fit and allow escape.

No, it really does not. I mean, cool premise, but it needs more than a declaration of certainty to sell me on the idea. Greg is in control of the body, and Durkon is his prisoner. By your logic, Durkon changing at this point would mean, if anything, that he can't take control of his body anymore, not the other way around.

GW

[Fyraltari]

Recall that the high priest said the truth could serve a purpose.

I'm gonna guess that this purpose is "Durkon gets to end his days in his beloved homeland".

[knag]

The vampire was custom made to fit exactly into Durkon's soul so it stands to reason that changing your soul, or changing yourself, could break free from the perfect fit and allow escape.

Changing oneself is incredibly difficult and I'd imagine even more so after death. I can hardly think of soul shattering changing events then A) the news that your long held belief that you held were banished and unable to return was false. That your banishment was officially reversed. Also that B) You are a father. The bond of parenthood changes everything.

My guess is that at least one piece of news will weaken the hold, while the other will allow a prison break. Recall that the high priest said the truth could serve a purpose.

I don't think he'll break free without a resurrection spell, but I do think that'll he'll feed Durkon* a key piece of misinformation which leads to his eventual release.

[Mandor]

I'd *like* to see Durkon break free from Greg. Primarily because Greg *really* needs a comeuppance or seven.

But I have seen nothing that suggests to me that this a possible thing in Stick-Verse. Yes, him being contained in this manner is massively unfair, but Hel and the Northern Gods have already done a huge expose on "Life Ain't Fair" with the whole honor system being implemented purely for a WAGER. On the WHIM of the gods, and nothing more.

I don't think shock and changes of heart will be enough for Durkon to break free.
I certainly don't expect Durkon to just get angry and break free like Grom Hellscream.
I think they're going to have to kill him and rez him. And I don't see Hilgya being willing to rez him, except mmmaaaaaaaayyyybee to read him the riot act in person. I'm not sure how many other high level clerics are still on scene.

[SavageWombat]

Now, now, let's give the idea some thought.

The whole narrative purpose for this arc is to give Durkon his turn at character growth. It seems quite reasonable that such growth will tie directly into Durkon's victory over Durkula. (Said victory may not necessarily include survival.)

I think even the original poster knows that it's not going to be as simple as Durkon realizing he was a bad person before and, as a result, making the Will save that breaks him free. But I think that oversimplification will turn out to have an element of truth in the end - Durkula will be defeated, ultimately, because Durkon changed.

[Morquard]

I agree, Greg is Durkon's nemesis and not Roy's, so it has to be Durkon who is instrumental in taking him down. That doesn't mean he's the one to kill him, I don't think that's actually possible, and it might well be Roy that strikes the final blow, but it could well be that Durkon manages to wrestle control away long enough to give Roy that opening, or something.

And remember, its not just the truth about that the banished was canceled. It's also the truth about why he was banished in the first place. Yes it was unfair, but as Roy said, if he had known he'd boot his own ass out the door. I think once he learns that, a lot of the anger drains out of him.

[SilverCacaobean]

I like your idea OP and I think it could make for a good story (that ultimately he's trapped by his own self), but I don't think that's how it works in OotS world.


Now, now, let's give the idea some thought.

The whole narrative purpose for this arc is to give Durkon his turn at character growth. It seems quite reasonable that such growth will tie directly into Durkon's victory over Durkula. (Said victory may not necessarily include survival.)

I think even the original poster knows that it's not going to be as simple as Durkon realizing he was a bad person before and, as a result, making the Will save that breaks him free. But I think that oversimplification will turn out to have an element of truth in the end - Durkula will be defeated, ultimately, because Durkon changed.

I agree this is how something like that could play out and I too am expecting Durkon to change. It's just that I doubt there'll be a rule that says: "Vampire spirit was made to fit exactly the soul so when it changes it's free".

[brian 333]

The Giant has very meticulously followed the RAW for D&D vampires in his vampire depictions.

Those rules do not allow any chance for the dead person to in any way break free from the spirit inhabiting his corpse. Any theory which involves Durkon reasserting control over his corpse or interfereing with Durkula's control violates RAW, and this is something The Giant doesn't do, outside of a one-off joke here and there.

I do believe Durkon will be instrumental in Durkula's downfall, but it will be within the 3.5 ed. ruleset. It won't be a break free scenario because vampires are never subject to being overthrown by the spirit of the corpse they use.

In my opinion it will be a case of the spirit assigning incorrect values to the information Durkon provides which leads to cumulative errors of judgement, but that opinion is not supported by anything but Durkon's response to the memory of Roy being eaten by the frog.

[TenthousandDays]

I wonder if Durkon, should he be ressurected, will choose a new deity and how he will view the rules governing dwarfdom going forward.
Hilgya might be a rolemodel, teacher and is also the mother of his child. Durkon might choose to radically alter his perspective on life and afterlife of a dwarf if offspring of his is concerned.
The deal he accepted for himself and obviously suffers from, his whole life, could in his eyes simply not be good enough for his kid.
I feel like the way he always valued traditions over his own interests because it was passed down by his ancestry might not apply anymore, when he has become the ancestry and has to decide for the next generation based upon his experience.
But maybe I'm just imagining too much. Interesting character arc anyway.

[Doctor West]

Any theory which involves Durkon reasserting control over his corpse or interfereing with Durkula's control violates RAW, and this is something The Giant doesn't do, outside of a one-off joke here and there.

[Citation needed]

Seriously, the Giant has asserted many times that the story takes priority over D&D rules, not the other way around, and that he has better things to do than make sure every piece of plot minutiae plots accurately to a 10+ year old system that he doesn't remember all the details of anymore.
For that matter, RAW is not a sacred thing to be protected at all costs in the context of an actual game either: Rules-As-Written is most often a concept used to point out that the rules are often nonsensical if you don't apply your common sense, and a good GM (in any system, not just D&D) will fudge the rules if they're slowing down play or interfering with what he or she wants to do with the campaign setting.

[RatElemental]

[Citation needed]

Seriously, the Giant has asserted many times that the story takes priority over D&D rules, not the other way around, and that he has better things to do than make sure every piece of plot minutiae plots accurately to a 10+ year old system that he doesn't remember all the details of anymore.
For that matter, RAW is not a sacred thing to be protected at all costs in the context of an actual game either: Rules-As-Written is most often a concept used to point out that the rules are often nonsensical if you don't apply your common sense, and a good GM (in any system, not just D&D) will fudge the rules if they're slowing down play or interfering with what he or she wants to do with the campaign setting.

Moreover, the way vampires work in OotS isn't even RAW, nor is it RAI. It's not Rules as anything, it's something Rich made up for the story. This may or may not make it more or less likely that the trapped spirit breaking free is a thing that can happen.

[Turin_19]

Hi all. Lovely topic!


I want your opinion: to me, Durkon hasn't shown yet anything that's even close to tilting the fight between the Order and Durkula.

Not that it seems to NEED it: the Order looks more and more effective each day, and Roy is like, super-badass now.

But I really wonder how we're gonna get to Durkon defining this scenario. We've had like, nearly 200 strips now in this book. And it doesn't seem Durkon is anywhere close to finding out how to tilt this. Only once so far, regarding a giant frog. What else?

My idea: what if Durkula isn't the real nemesis, but Hel is? And they are out to tackle her after he's back?

Because it really looks to me that Durkula has made wrong strategic decisions in his possible final stand. Plus, he will be almost alone now in a fight against a powerful Order. Everyone's ready for him.

Everyone in the order has the main focus of killing Durkula and ressurrecting Durkon now. I don't think they've ever been together like this before. They are pure group-focus now.
I also think that Durkon was the first member of the order who was able to befriend all the others - as far as befriend goes for Belkar. What if this arc is not only about Durkon's growth, but how the Order behaves without one of its cornerstones?

Even then: what if Durkon's never to come back? Because somehow, it doesn't seem the order needs him anymore. And it doesn't seem to me that he will be able to tilt this fight after all.

[Fyraltari]

Hi all. Lovely topic!


I want your opinion: to me, Durkon hasn't shown yet anything that's even close to tilting the fight between the Order and Durkula.
The fight hasn't happened yet.
:elan: Everyone knows that if you explain your plan it never works!


Not that it seems to NEED it: the Order looks more and more effective each day, and Roy is like, super-badass now.
Nah they still need a healbot, and another sensible (by comparison) person on the team.


But I really wonder how we're gonna get to Durkon defining this scenario. We've had like, nearly 200 strips now in this book. And it doesn't seem Durkon is anywhere close to finding out how to tilt this. Only once so far, regarding a giant frog. What else?

My idea: what if Durkula isn't the real nemesis, but Hel is? And they are out to tackle her after he's back?
Tackle her how? Can you really see this group slaying a bona-fide goddess? They aren't even sure they can beat Xykon.


Because it really looks to me that Durkula has made wrong strategic decisions in his possible final stand. Plus, he will be almost alone now in a fight against a powerful Order. Everyone's ready for him.


He, two spawns, two Clerics and an unseen vampire. At least.
The odds are good but it's not going to be awalk in the park methinks.




I also think that Durkon was the first member of the order who was able to befriend all the others - as far as befriend goes for Belkar. What if this arc is not only about Durkon's growth, but how the Order behaves without one of its cornerstones?
The short answer is badly, the long answer is Don't split the Party.




Even then: what if Durkon's never to come back? Because somehow, it doesn't seem the order needs him anymore. And it doesn't seem to me that he will be able to tilt this fight after all.
Seems to me like they do:


Everyone in the order has the main focus of killing Durkula and ressurrecting Durkon now. I don't think they've ever been together like this before. They are pure group-focus now.
This isn't because of Hel's plan, they don't care much for that. They're like this because Durkula is keeping their beloved friend from them and defiling all that he holds dear.

Moreover the reason I believe Durkn will back are twofold:

1) There's still one book to go, now is notthe moment to radically change the order.
2) Durkon has gotten more character developpment in this book than in the five before. The past has literally come to haunt him in two different ways. He's been forced to acknowledge the parts of himself he refused to see, he very soon will be confronted to his worst mistake and the consequences thereof, and, for all his vilainy, the vampire spirit has a point that he always sacrificed himself and lived for others rather than himself.

I think that at the end of this theorder will have gained a better Durkon than the one they lost in the pyramid, one that is at peace with himself, that will be proactive and true to his own desires while still retaining his compassion and drive to do right.
Just like how Roy came back improved from his own flirt with Death.

And if he proves to have only a bit of Greg's knack for planning and contigencies, that'd be most welcome.

[Kish]

I don't think the current book is going to feature mortal/god fisticuffs.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, challenging the status quo and topping character developpment by killing off major characters has its merits but it's more GRRM's school of storytelling than The Giant's.

[hamishspence]

I mean, challenging the status quo and topping character developpment by killing off major characters has its merits but it's more GRRM's school of storytelling than The Giant's.

As of 2013 - The Giant hadn't read or watched GRRM stuff:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15874139&postcount=37


I'm really tired of this idea that George R. R. Martin invented the concept of killing characters circa year 2000. At least the OP didn't insultingly imply that I'm only killing characters because I'm a fanboy of his, as I have seen elsewhere.

So, for the record: I've never read George R. R. Martin. I haven't watched Game of Thrones. I don't have HBO, for starters, and I haven't bought the DVDs. I am aware, second-hand, that apparently he kills off a lot of characters, sometimes all at once. I can't really say too much about that, though, because I'm not familiar with it.

I can say that I have read several reviews/articles about the work that makes me think that it's not for me, as I have no interest in "gritty realism" for its own sake, I almost exclusively want to read about actual heroes being actually heroic, and I prefer not to read extensive descriptions of meat dishes.

That said, by the time Blood Runs In the Family had come out - there was a bonus strip with a character and their pet who were a spoof of Jon Snow and Ghost. I think the same strip also referenced other ones - Frudu and the Ming, the Elric-spoof character from Origin of PCs who refused to join Roy's party, the Buffy-spoof character from Origin of PCs who refused to join Roy's party, etc.

So, he must have done a little research into it, since then.

[Synesthesy]

Just because fantasy is a genre where good guys usually win, bad guys usually lose; good guys usually survives, while bad guys usually die, or at least they are punished for their crimes. When you start read the Lord of the Rings, you don't need to be a genius to know if Frodo will live or die, and if Sauron will win or lose. The same is true for most of fantasy stories, including oots: I don't believe many people think Roy will die in the end, while almost everyone think that Xykon will.

But being the same genre doesn't say anything about a story. So GRRM is free to kill whoever he wants, and the Giant is free to kill Roy (and resurrect him), Durkon (and hopefull resurrect him), Belkar (or not), etc.



I wait the next season of GoT, but I'm sure that Xykon on an undead Dragon leading an army of undead in battle is much more badass then the night king. Really badass.

[Fyraltari]

Just because fantasy is a genre where good guys usually win, bad guys usually lose; good guys usually survives, while bad guys usually die, or at least they are punished for their crimes. When you start read the Lord of the Rings, you don't need to be a genius to know if Frodo will live or die, and if Sauron will win or lose. The same is true for most of fantasy stories, including oots: I don't believe many people think Roy will die in the end, while almost everyone think that Xykon will.

But being the same genre doesn't say anything about a story. So GRRM is free to kill whoever he wants, and the Giant is free to kill Roy (and resurrect him), Durkon (and hopefull resurrect him), Belkar (or not), etc.



I wait the next season of GoT, but I'm sure that Xykon on an undead Dragon leading an army of undead in battle is much more badass then the night king. Really badass.


It's not just fantasy, pick any genre and the heroes usually win.
Also Martin's reputation makes him much grimmer a writer than he really is. (The good guys aren't all dead yet for a start).

[KillingAScarab]

I don't think the current book is going to feature mortal/god fisticuffs.I agree, the Order of the Stick is not a Japanese RPG, and we already got the Final Fantasy reference back in Cliffport. The deities have been featured far more as characters, lately, but this is so we can be given details about a divine plot which the protagonists are attempting to foil. But once it's discovered that Mr. Scruffy has contracted a disease (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html), I could see Belkar wanting to take on Hel, but being totally without the means, even if he does have a dinosaur he can ride.

[Turin_19]

This isn't because of Hel's plan, they don't care much for that. They're like this because Durkula is keeping their beloved friend from them and defiling all that he holds dear.

Moreover the reason I believe Durkn will back are twofold:

1) There's still one book to go, now is notthe moment to radically change the order.
2) Durkon has gotten more character developpment in this book than in the five before. The past has literally come to haunt him in two different ways. He's been forced to acknowledge the parts of himself he refused to see, he very soon will be confronted to his worst mistake and the consequences thereof, and, for all his vilainy, the vampire spirit has a point that he always sacrificed himself and lived for others rather than himself.

I think that at the end of this theorder will have gained a better Durkon than the one they lost in the pyramid, one that is at peace with himself, that will be proactive and true to his own desires while still retaining his compassion and drive to do right.
Just like how Roy came back improved from his own flirt with Death.

And if he proves to have only a bit of Greg's knack for planning and contigencies, that'd be most welcome.


I understand your point of view, but I don't actually see Durkon's growth. So far, I see him mildly deveping some kind of growth. Has the past really come to haunt him? I don't see it that way. It hasn't, it's only an evil spirit and a mockery of life trying to show a dark side of his life that is actually innacurate.
Plus, he's still not aware of his son. I mean... Not sure how that's gonna impact him.

[Fyraltari]

I understand your point of view, but I don't actually see Durkon's growth. So far, I see him mildly deveping some kind of growth. Has the past really come to haunt him? I don't see it that way. It hasn't, it's only an evil spirit and a mockery of life trying to show a dark side of his life that is actually innacurate.
He has admitted to himslef that he resents his people, that's growth already, and whatever the means he is using to try and get Greg killed, he is using subtelty and manipulation, that's new to him.
He also realized why he wasn't proactive when it came to helping people.
I maintain that the spirit has a point, if wildly distorted beyond proportions, when he says that Durkon has been a spectator of his own life.
The book isn't over yet. However the encounter with Hilgya and Kudzu goes, there is no way it will not have a profound impact on Durkon as wil the news that his banishment is over and the inevitable meeting with his mum (and possibly her death if The Giant is feeling cruel).

Remember, change is something you realize happened after it happened, or can you pinpoint the moment Belkar stopped faking his developpment?

Durkon has learned much about himself and we have learned even more about him. It would be poor storytelling to throw that out of the window yet.

[Metahuman1]

I wonder if Durkon, should he be ressurected, will choose a new deity and how he will view the rules governing dwarfdom going forward.
Hilgya might be a rolemodel, teacher and is also the mother of his child. Durkon might choose to radically alter his perspective on life and afterlife of a dwarf if offspring of his is concerned.
The deal he accepted for himself and obviously suffers from, his whole life, could in his eyes simply not be good enough for his kid.
I feel like the way he always valued traditions over his own interests because it was passed down by his ancestry might not apply anymore, when he has become the ancestry and has to decide for the next generation based upon his experience.
But maybe I'm just imagining too much. Interesting character arc anyway.

Put me down for liking this idea actually.



Heck, let's take it a step further. We know there's a way to use the Scribble to hold the gods hostage/black mail them/force concessions from them. And we know there's more too it then we have been allowed to know so far.


What if the Order wind up forcing the gods to rework the status quo with the afterlives of none human species?

[zimmerwald1915]

What if the Order wind up forcing the gods to rework the status quo with the afterlives of none human species?
Then the new arrangement would likely be just as ill-thought-out, arbitrary, and with as much tendency towards oppression as the current one? The Order is not exactly composed of trenchant political thinkers, and is accountable to no one but itself.

The MitD on the other hand . . .

[Fish]

Before answering whether Durkon breaks free of Durkon* or not, let me ask this: does Durkon get to gloat? Does he get to solve the problem personally without anyone else’s aid?

Once Durkula is destroyed, we lose the opportunity to see Durkon speaking directly to him. We won’t get to see Durkon rubbing Durkula’s metaphorical nose in his mistakes. Whatever defeat Durkula experiences will probably happen when Durkon and Durkula are in the same mind together.

Would Roy help? Would Durkon be able to communicate with Roy? Would there even be any point to it? What would breaking free even do? Roy wouldn’t believe it was the real Durkon; I’m not sure what plot would be forwarded that way, although the Giant always surprises me.

I have this idea of Durkon being able to tell Durkula, or Hel, the line “you’re just not that important.” It might happen with respect to the Domain Agreement: some time after he is resurrected, Durkon casts cure disease on the party and Hel considers refusing, perhaps. That’s the perfect line to throw in Hel’s face — the same thing Durkula told Durkon — but I’m trying to imagine how a moment of triumph like that could happen, because Durkula would by then be destroyed and Hel would have to manifest on the Prime Material Plane for Durkon to get in that zinger.

Whatever miraculous, heroic turn of events that ends this storyline is, in my opinion, to be the result of something Durkon can do; and it may happen at a moment when nobody else appears to be able to help. Maybe the party starts to suffer from the madness of sphinx pox; Roy tries to communicate Durkon’s absolution to him but it comes out as a riddle. Durkon understands it but Durkula does not. The party is incapacitated (making this Durkon’s moment alone). What can Durkon do at that moment?

Suppose he’s already done it.

He directed the vampires to set up the ambush in a place of his choosing. He distracted Durkula from paying attention to the list of wealthy donors.

Maybe one of the donors paid for a bigass skylight in the room for Sunna, goddess of the sun.

Breaking free isn't really necessary for the plot. Just my two cents.

[Synesthesy]

Remember, change is something you realize happened after it happened, or can you pinpoint the moment Belkar stopped faking his developpment?


I always thought it was in the Arena's pit, when he decided to free the dinosaur to save someone not only he didn't care about, but that he had good reason to dislike, if not hate.

[Shining Wrath]

We have no in-strip lore to suggest that Durkula can be expelled or defeated by Durkon. It remains my hope that it will prove to be possible, and the twin shocks of "Your banishment is over" and "You are a father with all the obligations that dwarven custom places upon a parent" arriving back to back might do the trick if it is at all possible. I can't really say I think it's likely, though.

Hypothesis for a mechanism: the vampire spirit is who Durkon was on his worst day. If, then, he gains the strength of character to repent and change, to no longer be that person in any sense - could that unmake Durkula, or expel him? Maybe.

If so, I'd expect Durkon's body to collapse, dead, and Durkon's soul to head off to Valhalla. It would then be up to Hilgya to bring the man she hates back to life - which might require some persuasion.

If one of those wands Haley picked up in Tinkertown is Glibness, Hilgya doesn't stand a chance. :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

Before answering whether Durkon breaks free of Durkon* or not, let me ask this: does Durkon get to gloat? Does he get to solve the problem personally without anyone else’s aid?

Once Durkula is destroyed, we lose the opportunity to see Durkon speaking directly to him. We won’t get to see Durkon rubbing Durkula’s metaphorical nose in his mistakes. Whatever defeat Durkula experiences will probably happen when Durkon and Durkula are in the same mind together.

Would Roy help? Would Durkon be able to communicate with Roy? Would there even be any point to it? What would breaking free even do? Roy wouldn’t believe it was the real Durkon; I’m not sure what plot would be forwarded that way, although the Giant always surprises me.

I have this idea of Durkon being able to tell Durkula, or Hel, the line “you’re just not that important.” It might happen with respect to the Domain Agreement: some time after he is resurrected, Durkon casts cure disease on the party and Hel considers refusing, perhaps. That’s the perfect line to throw in Hel’s face — the same thing Durkula told Durkon — but I’m trying to imagine how a moment of triumph like that could happen, because Durkula would by then be destroyed and Hel would have to manifest on the Prime Material Plane for Durkon to get in that zinger.
This could very well happen the moment before Greg's death. Vilains having a fraction of a second to realize they are so screwed and there is literally nothing they can do about it is exceedingly enjoyable.

Don't forget this is a world where people can have entire conversations during the time it takes for an arm to swing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)
It may be important that we were told this is even truer in Spiritworld. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)




He directed the vampires to set up the ambush in a place of his choosing. He distracted Durkula from paying attention to the list of wealthy donors.

Maybe one of the donors paid for a bigass skylight in the room for Sunna, goddess of the sun.

Breaking free isn't really necessary for the plot. Just my two cents.
Well considering that the hall belongs to worshipper of Odin and neither Thor's or Sunna's...


I always thought it was in the Arena's pit, when he decided to free the dinosaur to save someone not only he didn't care about, but that he had good reason to dislike, if not hate.
No, see that was the first time the change became noticeable to us, anyone who knows Belkar, and maybe even to himself. For that to happen the change must have started before, he wasn't transformed between the moment he climbed up to the window and the moment he looked at them. Change is gradual, there are no singular moment he became somebody else, itstarted either during his vision/hallucination/acid trip thingie and it isn't over yet.

[Fish]

Well considering that the hall belongs to worshipper of Odin and neither Thor's or Sunna's...
That's information that Durkon gave to Durkula. While it may well be true, that's no guarantee that it's the whole truth. In any case, Durkon's plans needn't revolve around this particular hall; they could revolve around some other hall, such as where the voting takes place.

We know Durkula didn't learn the protection from sunlight spell; we know Durkon is trying to present Durkula with misleading or obscured truths. We know Durkula isn't good at putting together disconnected images. I'm not sure what else Durkon can passively do to destroy vampires except lead them to a place with unexpected hazards like sunlight or holy water.

[Morty]

If Durkon were to break Durkula's control, it's entirely possible his soul will just pass on to the proper afterlife. He is as dead as Roy was - the curse of vampirism just trapped his soul in his old body.

[Fyraltari]

That's information that Durkon gave to Durkula. While it may well be true, that's no guarantee that it's the whole truth. In any case, Durkon's plans needn't revolve around this particular hall; they could revolve around some other hall, such as where the voting takes place.

We know Durkula didn't learn the protection from sunlight spell; we know Durkon is trying to present Durkula with misleading or obscured truths. We know Durkula isn't good at putting together disconnected images. I'm not sure what else Durkon can passively do to destroy vampires except lead them to a place with unexpected hazards like sunlight or holy water.

Then holy water would be a better bet I think.

[Mandor]

<snip>
it would then be up to Hilgya to bring the man she hates back to life - which might require some persuasion.

If one of those wands Haley picked up in Tinkertown is Glibness, Hilgya doesn't stand a chance. :smallsmile:

The strip with Haley downing the potion of +30 bluff or glibness or whatever is my absolute favorite "Fun" comic of all time. "INTRUDERS!!" "nope" "FALSE ALARM!!!" I just giggle every time. I have to break the strips into categories though because for serious smackdown strips, it's hard to be Redcloak removing Tsukiko from the equation. Totally different kinds of comics... but each tops for their respective categories, in my book.


<snip>
We know Durkula didn't learn the protection from sunlight spell; we know Durkon is trying to present Durkula with misleading or obscured truths. We know Durkula isn't good at putting together disconnected images. I'm not sure what else Durkon can passively do to destroy vampires except lead them to a place with unexpected hazards like sunlight or holy water.

I think you may be onto something here. Dwarves are master stoneworkers. And Thor is a god of storms and thunder and sky. Could some upper chamber have a retracting ceiling? Semi obscure (well, no, obscure) referennce would be the Starfire Wheel on the Minbari homeworld in Babylon 5. And I believe Rich is a fan of that show. Would love to see Durkon sucker Greg into making his last stand someplace that suddenly becomes a concentrated pillar of pure sunlight.

[Metahuman1]

Then the new arrangement would likely be just as ill-thought-out, arbitrary, and with as much tendency towards oppression as the current one? The Order is not exactly composed of trenchant political thinkers, and is accountable to no one but itself.

The MitD on the other hand . . .

Well your rather a downer. (And seriously, they can't just say "Same rules for humans for everyone. You go were your alignment dictates."? They even made a point of mentioning it in the strip. )






As for the sun roof theory, wasn't Odin sometimes associated with Stars or something? And definably associated with incredible literally god like visual acuity?

[zimmerwald1915]

Well your rather a downer.
Hee. So you noticed.


(And seriously, they can't just say "Same rules for humans for everyone. You go were your alignment dictates."? They even made a point of mentioning it in the strip. )
The assumption here is that the system for humans isn't as at-bottom wrong as the system for, say, goblinoids or dwarves. The thing about oppressive structures is that they determine the ones they seem to privilege just as much as everyone else. Humans, it turns out, are turned into batteries - and while that might seem natural inasmuch as it's in line with planar ecologies, there are two problems. First, who is the Order to decide such things for everybody, and second, who says the planar ecologies have to be set up that way? Or as long as we're questioning things, who says people have to die, or that there ought to be an afterlife if they do?

[Shining Wrath]

Hee. So you noticed.


The assumption here is that the system for humans isn't as at-bottom wrong as the system for, say, goblinoids or dwarves. The thing about oppressive structures is that they determine the ones they seem to privilege just as much as everyone else. Humans, it turns out, are turned into batteries - and while that might seem natural inasmuch as it's in line with planar ecologies, there are two problems. First, who is the Order to decide such things for everybody, and second, who says the planar ecologies have to be set up that way? Or as long as we're questioning things, who says people have to die, or that there ought to be an afterlife if they do?

The gods make the world. Their world; their rules. It is only natural that they make rules that benefit themselves. Now if we had only omnibenevolent gods in OotS things might be somewhat different, but the pantheons presented herein have a range of alignments from the somewhat goodish to the downright malevolent, and thus the world is designed such that any benefits reaped by mortals are more or less happy accidents. Perhaps some of the gods tried to influence things for the benefit of mortals, being Good; but they seem to have been outvoted.

If the world is remade the same motivations will be present for largely the same set of gods, and the results are not likely to be much better for the mortals.

[RatElemental]

I've seen no compelling evidence that dwarves and goblins don't eventually turn into soul power batteries too, for that matter. And I've seen plenty to suggest the soul power batteries thing is the entire point of the creation of mortals in the first place.

[zimmerwald1915]

I've seen no compelling evidence that dwarves and goblins don't eventually turn into soul power batteries too, for that matter. And I've seen plenty to suggest the soul power batteries thing is the entire point of the creation of mortals in the first place.
You're probably right. Still, why should it be that way?

[Kish]

I suspect whether that question looks logical depends on how one feels about the moral weight of the answer "because the gods said so."

That said, while I don't expect Rich to ever treat the gods as moral agents as such, I also suspect fixing the baseline D&D cosmology is beyond the scope of this story.

[Fyraltari]

The assumption here is that the system for humans isn't as at-bottom wrong as the system for, say, goblinoids or dwarves. The thing about oppressive structures is that they determine the ones they seem to privilege just as much as everyone else. Humans, it turns out, are turned into batteries - and while that might seem natural inasmuch as it's in line with planar ecologies, there are two problems. First, who is the Order to decide such things for everybody, and second, who says the planar ecologies have to be set up that way? Or as long as we're questioning things, who says people have to die, or that there ought to be an afterlife if they do?
Humans and goblinoids do not have a different system. The Dwarves are the special onessince they have an additional layer of judgment, once that is dealt with everyone gets the same treatment :
1) Are you a follower of a god?

-Yes. Proceed to their plane and place of residence.
-No. Proceed to your alignment appropriate plane.
Slowly turn into god-food.

You're probably right. Still, why should it be that way?
My guess is that the Gods harness the natural "essence" of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos to make it into mortals who by living and afterliving process it into something that can sustain the gods who in turn, by using (or granting use of) their powers/"living" turn it back into raw "essence".

So it "should" be that way because any other way involves the non-existence of every being in the OOTS-world which they presumably don't want.

That is of course purely my headcanon and is not really supported by anything comic or rule-wise.

[Anymage]

The assumption here is that the system for humans isn't as at-bottom wrong as the system for, say, goblinoids or dwarves. The thing about oppressive structures is that they determine the ones they seem to privilege just as much as everyone else. Humans, it turns out, are turned into batteries - and while that might seem natural inasmuch as it's in line with planar ecologies, there are two problems. First, who is the Order to decide such things for everybody, and second, who says the planar ecologies have to be set up that way? Or as long as we're questioning things, who says people have to die, or that there ought to be an afterlife if they do?

A world without death would be very hard to do without creating its own problems. Also, given the fact that the gods seem to live in the outer planes instead of having created the whole cosmology whole cloth, I'm going to go with the interpretation that some things are out of even their hands. Assuming that these metaphysical constants are out of even their hands meshes best with the story, so that's the interpretation I'm going with.

And to the overall theme of the thread, if someone with a strong enough will could break free from the animating vampire spirit, it would have happened at some point in history. Durkon is exceptional, but higher level characters do exist. Some characters struggle fiercely, some quickly make peace with the spirit, but if taking over were an option then one of the high priests would have mentioned it*.

Durkon will pull something on Greg, to be sure. Possibly a misinformation campaign, just as possibly a process of Greg becoming open to emotions as a side-effect of embracing Durkon's memories. But there will be no wresting control over the body. And there certainly won't be Durkon's spirit running the super-powered vampire body through the next book.

*(I have a personal theory, based on practically no evidence, that as time goes on - as the vampire spirit absorbs more of the host's memories, and as the host spirit spends longer than their mortal lifetime as a passenger - that the two spirits will eventually become so similar that they effectively merge. A resurrected Malack would see himself primarily as cleric and a former vampire, not a formerly trapped shaman. But that's not really supported by anything, and more importantly would happen over time scales well beyond what this book is shaping up to be.)

[Morty]

I suspect whether that question looks logical depends on how one feels about the moral weight of the answer "because the gods said so."

That said, while I don't expect Rich to ever treat the gods as moral agents as such, I also suspect fixing the baseline D&D cosmology is beyond the scope of this story.

I'm pretty sure he said that the cosmology, afterlives, etc. are just background elements that the story happens around, to him.

[Jay R]

Remember, change is something you realize happened after it happened, or can you pinpoint the moment Belkar stopped faking his developpment?

According to the Giant's notes in Don't Split the Party, Belkar will continue to fake character development, even while he is growing (a little). His first real character development is when he started caring about Mr. Scruffy -- possibly the first person or entity other than himself he's ever really cared about.

[Metahuman1]

Hee. So you noticed.


The assumption here is that the system for humans isn't as at-bottom wrong as the system for, say, goblinoids or dwarves. The thing about oppressive structures is that they determine the ones they seem to privilege just as much as everyone else. Humans, it turns out, are turned into batteries - and while that might seem natural inasmuch as it's in line with planar ecologies, there are two problems. First, who is the Order to decide such things for everybody, and second, who says the planar ecologies have to be set up that way? Or as long as we're questioning things, who says people have to die, or that there ought to be an afterlife if they do?

The fact that the Dwarves are the only one's we know, for certain, are getting the shaft, because of the deal with Hel.

And as for who the order are, there the one's with the power to make it happen, and the desire to make things better for people. And it would be better for the Dwarves to have that extra bit of freedom in how they live, and for the rest of the beings in existence because they don't have to worry that Hel will ever have a chance to pull a stunt like this again and take over and make things horrible for all mortals forever, or at least for Eon's till the Gods can figure out how to deal with her.

That's who they are to decide this if they get in a position were they have the ability to threaten the pantheon's with the Snarl.

And besides, frankly, it's actually not that radical a change. When mortals, all mortals, die, if they were following a specific god, they go too that gods plane, if not, they got to the suitable alignment plane. Period. No more "Did you die in honorable combat and live a life of dull duty?" extra standards or the like.

Maybe add on an addendum of "Oh, and you have to make absolutely sure that this is as common knowledge as The Sky Is Blue and The Ocean Is Wet.", so that you don't get people doing stuff to get out of afterlife circumstance's that are not necessary.



That's actively less radical then the changes to standard D&D that Eberron made when it rolled out as part of 3.5 edition, and Rich worked on that setting as I recall.

[zimmerwald1915]

And as for who the order are, there the one's with the power to make it happen, and the desire to make things better for people.
Well-intentioned fools with more power than is good for them and accountable to no one but their consciences have ruined more lives than all the malicious and evil men in history.


Rich worked on that setting as I recall.
Mr. Burlew worked on an entirely different setting that competed with Eberron in a contest to be published by Wizards of the Coast. It came second.

[Metahuman1]

In the real world, debatable.

What's not debatable is that OOTS is not SET in the real world, or even a world that resembles our own all that closely.

If the gods have a valid counter argument, I'm sure they can send a Deva or something to go relay said argument too the Order. And again, we know this is a bad thing that has actively come back to bite them in the backside. The gods don't loose that much compared to what they gain, which is the certainty that none of the other gods can pull a stunt like this afterword's.



*Checks.* I could swear I remember him working on some of the Eberron books. Ah well. Main point was that it wasn't that big a leap from were there at now and indeed, less of one than may published settings make.

[hamishspence]

I could swear I remember him working on some of the Eberron books.



He did work on at least one Eberron book - Explorer's Handbook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Burlew

[FireJustice]

Sure, why not. By the power of Friendship (R), of course.

Probably, after a sing number by the Order of the Stick. But before Roy give him a true hug of true love friend (twice true.. truewice!).

Because the solution isn't fightning agains the evil, no. Is fighting for who we are friend with.


Is it friendly enough?

[Manty5]

I certainly don't expect Durkon to just get angry and break free like Grom Hellscream.

Actually, we've never seen Durkon in Grom Hellscream anger mode. Even cursing his kin to Hel after his exile was more crying than anger.

We know his mom is alive and well. IF we have a anger-based breakout, I expect Durkon* going after his mom would be what does it.

[Shining Wrath]

Actually, we've never seen Durkon in Grom Hellscream anger mode. Even cursing his kin to Hel after his exile was more crying than anger.

We know his mom is alive and well. IF we have a anger-based breakout, I expect Durkon* going after his mom would be what does it.

Kudzu as well.

[Jay R]

The fact that the Dwarves are the only one's we know, for certain, are getting the shaft, because of the deal with Hel.

I'd say that the gods' setup was also pretty bad for the people in this town (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html).

[Metahuman1]

I'd say that the gods' setup was also pretty bad for the people in this town (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html).

It was a gag strip.



Ironically one that shows that in this setting, the gods tend toward being "Well-intentioned fools with more power than is good for them and accountable to no one but their consciences". Meaning having an opposing group of such undo it might even be narratively poetic.