Equipping a wraith?

[InterstellarPro]

A wraith has the incorporeal subtype. Therefore, it has no physical body. But, with the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis, it can "wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though it were not incorporeal". So, what is its carrying capacity? Can it ever be encumbered? Flying creatures, in general, cannot wear medium or heavy armor. Does the same apply to incorporeal creatures?

Basically, my player is high enough level to create greater undead, and this is starting to come up. He is wondering how much ghost touch equipment his wraith can carry. Can he use Psychic Reformation to give his wraith the Ghostly Grasp feat? Etc.

I said no to Psychic Reformation (as that is a mind-affecting effect). But, perhaps if he keeps the wraith around long enough, I will allow him to gain a hit die and eventually be able to take the feat.

[Thurbane]

I've seen this question before.

From memory, a creature with a non-ability is treated as having a 10, so it would have a 10 Str for carrying capacity?

[timeeater14]

Maybe use Charisma?

[InterstellarPro]

I've seen this question before.

From memory, a creature with a non-ability is treated as having a 10, so it would have a 10 Str for carrying capacity?

So, would a large sized creature be treated as having a STR 10, but double carrying capacity for being large?

[timeeater14]

So, would a large sized creature be treated as having a STR 10, but double carrying capacity for being large?
That makes more sense. So the wraith would use its 10 STR to attack and for carrying capacity(doubled for large). Get some Weapon Finesse stat!

[Thurbane]

I may have been misremembering, I think I was thinking of the following rule:


Nonabilities
Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0.

Last time the issue was discussed, I believe there was no RAW to cover the situation. The recommendations were to either treat Str as 10 (for a modifier of +0), or use Cha in place of Str.

[InterstellarPro]

I may have been misremembering, I think I was thinking of the following rule:



Last time the issue was discussed, I believe there was no RAW to cover the situation. The recommendations were to either treat Str as 10 (for a modifier of +0), or use Cha in place of Str.

I like the idea of treating Strength as 10, but then I wonder, are all incorporeal creatures really equally strong (or weak) with absolutely no variation? And if I use Charisma, will it matter that Dread Wraiths can carry 1400 pounds?

Here is a quote from Libris Mortis. I am not sure what to make of it:


Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature’s possession. An object that the creature relinquishes loses its incorporeal quality (and the creature loses the ability to manipulate the object). If an incorporeal creature uses a thrown weapon or a ranged weapon, the projectile becomes corporeal as soon as it is fi red and can affect a corporeal target normally (no miss chance). (This information does not appear in the Monster Manual, but is part of the updated description of the incorporeal
subtype in Monster Manual III.)

If incorporeal entities have no strength score, would that mean that incorporeal items have no weight? If that is true, could a necromancer with a shadow or a wraith under his command (that has Ghostly Grasp) be given items to carry, and they would become weightless? Hey, shadow, here's the entire dragon's horde we just captured. Carry it home for us! As we hand it to you, it will become incorporeal and therefore weightless!

I am obviously using a silly example, but all of these options seem to have their own vulnerabilities.

[InterstellarPro]

I think I'm gonna go with the Charisma option. That seems the most robust, and while there could be potential abuses with incorporeal creatures with high Charisma, it seems unlikely that it will come up enough to really be an issue. A dread wraith (and probably other incorporeal options with a high Charisma) is a CR 11 monster. If the party really wants to use a dread wraith that it meets to cart treasure around, I doubt I would be that upset by it.

[Falontani]

I would allow any ghost touch item to actually become incorporeal in the wraith's "hands" and become weightless. However other than that one quote from Libris Mortis there isn't a normal way for an incorporeal creature to interact with material objects as they just go through them. I would have them retain their weight for the case of ghostly grasp and indeed use it's Cha mod for them. And finally remember to put in a small sense of realism, how does the wraith carry the 2400 lbs? One giant bag? A bandier of Bags of Holding?

[Rijan_Sai]

Here is a quote from Libris Mortis. I am not sure what to make of it:


Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature’s possession. An object that the creature relinquishes loses its incorporeal quality (and the creature loses the ability to manipulate the object). If an incorporeal creature uses a thrown weapon or a ranged weapon, the projectile becomes corporeal as soon as it is fi red and can affect a corporeal target normally (no miss chance). (This information does not appear in the Monster Manual, but is part of the updated description of the incorporeal
subtype in Monster Manual III.)

If incorporeal entities have no strength score, would that mean that incorporeal items have no weight? If that is true, could a necromancer with a shadow or a wraith under his command (that has Ghostly Grasp) be given items to carry, and they would become weightless? Hey, shadow, here's the entire dragon's horde we just captured. Carry it home for us! As we hand it to you, it will become incorporeal and therefore weightless!

This is pretty much the RAW of it! So yes, that pet shadow/wraith/etc. could carry the entire dragon's hoard (dragon included!) Just wrap it all up in a big sack first, so that it's not dropping stuff as you go.

Putting a reasonable limitation on things, I would probably second (fifth/sixth/nth) the Charisma option as well.

[InterstellarPro]

This is pretty much the RAW of it! So yes, that pet shadow/wraith/etc. could carry the entire dragon's hoard (dragon included!) Just wrap it all up in a big sack first, so that it's not dropping stuff as you go.

Putting a reasonable limitation on things, I would probably second (fifth/sixth/nth) the Charisma option as well.

Lol, I texted my player with the limitation I decided, and he said, "Good thing. I was planning on commanding my wraith, 'Pick up that mountain and crush the BBEG with it'"

[ShurikVch]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, bu wasn't there some rule which said "You can't optimize an NPC"?
Wraith isn't PC - it's advancement is completely in DM's hands; even if it will get enough HD to take a feat, it wouldn't get the Ghostly Grasp unless DM will allow it
(I mean - unless the Wraith is there as Undead Cohort rather than just a mere created Undead)

[InterstellarPro]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, bu wasn't there some rule which said "You can't optimize an NPC"?
Wraith isn't PC - it's advancement is completely in DM's hands; even if it will get enough HD to take a feat, it wouldn't get the Ghostly Grasp unless DM will allow it
(I mean - unless the Wraith is there as Undead Cohort rather than just a mere created Undead)

You are not wrong. As a DM, it is my job to build encounters that will be fun for my players. So, I built a wraith that had the Ghostly Grasp feat. My player wanted to create his own wraith with the Ghostly Grasp feat. I had a choice. I could say, "No, the wraith you met was unique. You cannot create something just because you encountered it." But I find those types of determinations too arbitrary for my campaigns. If it was good enough for me to throw at my players, it is good enough for them to figure out how to create. I told him it would take a bit to research how to alter his spell to grant that ability to his wraith. He is investing the time and effort and when his character finishes, he is going to have a wraith with Ghostly Grasp. I just wanted to make sure I was prepared for it when it happens.