Dread witch, fear immunity and HD caps

[Hiro Quester]

Fear-causing debuffer gnome Bard progressing into Dread Witch.

DW requires the ability to cast Cause Fear and Scare as prerequisites. These are decent spells at low levels. Either 1 creature (or 1/3levels for Scare) who fails will save is frightened. Shaken even if it makes the save.

But these spells have 5 and 6 hit dice caps. Creatures with greater then 6 HD are immune to the Scare spell.

These are pretty much useless at high levels. If I had a bard who learned these spells I’d trade them for others at high levels. (Except that they are prerequisites for a class, so normally would not be able to be changed without losing that class’s Abilities.)

But dread witch has a 4th level ability that keeps fear spells effective, by enabling them to affect creatures that are normally immune to fear:


Greater Master of Terror (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, the increased difficulty of all save DCs against all spells you cast with the fear description increases from +1 to +2. In addition, your fear spells are now so potent that they can even affect individuals normally immune to fear, such as paladins, although the subject still gains a saving throw to resist the spell's effect. Only a target whose HD exceed your caster level by 4 or more is immune to your mastery of terror. For instance, if you are a sorcerer 7/dread witch 4 (overall caster level 10), a paladin of 14th level or higher is immune to your fear spells.

It’s not clear if “normally immune to fear” includes “has enough hit dice to be immune to this fear spell”

Scare becomes almost insanely powerful at high levels if it can affect a number of creatures whose HD only exceed your caster level by 4 oops: 3, making them shaken even if they [S]make the save.

Is that over powerful for a second level spell?

The alternative is rather under powered, though, in filling your limited spells known slots with relatively useless spells.

Which way would you rule?

[Falontani]

I honestly (and unfortunately) would rule that the spells do not break their HD limit; However I would also rule that as long as you had 2 spells with the fear descriptor in your spells known after you had taken dread witch then you could swap them out. (Makes more thematic sense, at least to me)

And if not then remember that those two spells can always be used against low HD creatures without having to waste a higher level slot. So that guard at the entrance that is telling you that you can't come in, already affected by your fear aura? Take a cause fear.

[Bronk]

Those spells are entry requirements, but since the prestige class isn't from one of the 'Completes', which have that book specific rule that prestige classes described in those books require constant adherence to the entry requirements, you should be able to ditch those spells as soon as you've taken the first level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Creatures with 6 HD are not immune to fear--or even particularly resistant to fear--just because the scare spell cannot affect them. Scare and cause fear have a specific property that prevents them from affecting creatures with certain HD totals, and this property is different from, separate from, and unrelated to a proper immunity on the target's side of the equation. Greater Master of Terror won't allow cause fear and scare to affect creatures with more HD than what they can normally affect.

[Hiro Quester]

Being able to trade them out for other spells seems a reasonable compromise.

Scare could still help with intimidating peons at mid levels. But when we get higher, the guards at the gate of the Demon's palace or the Giant's fortress are not going to be <6HD.

At least Dread Witch ads Doom to your spell list, so you have more than just Fear, Scare and Cause Fear in your repertoire.

Switching Cause Fear for Doom (single target cause to be shaken, Will negates, but no HD limit) would be reasonable when we get to the no-low-level-minions levels. Combine that with a fear aura and we still have frightened high-level demon and giant guards who we can intimidate/bribe into granting admission, I guess.

[Falontani]

Scare could still help with intimidating peons at mid levels. But when we get higher, the guards at the gate of the Demon's palace or the Giant's fortress are not going to be <6HD.

I meant the Xenophobic human city that thinks that you shouldn't enter because your from elsewhere. Scare em enough that they dont wan't you to kill them more than they dont want to let you enter.

[Necroticplague]

Nope, doesn’t help with that. The ability only helps with immunity to fear. It do don’t do anything about any other immunities that might be in the way, such as immunity to mind affecting, spell immunity, HD-based immunity, or anything else.


I meant the Xenophobic human city that thinks that you shouldn't enter because your from elsewhere. Scare em enough that they dont wan't you to kill them more than they dont want to let you enter.

Why would the guards of any city worth interacting with be that low level? Considering the kind of nasties they might have to keep out, you’d probably want someone a bit more useful in a scrap.

[The Glyphstone]

Nope, doesn’t help with that. The ability only helps with immunity to fear. It do don’t do anything about any other immunities that might be in the way, such as immunity to mind affecting, spell immunity, HD-based immunity, or anything else.



Why would the guards of any city worth interacting with be that low level? Considering the kind of nasties they might have to keep out, you’d probably want someone a bit more useful in a scrap.

Considering how rare high-level characters are relative to a general population, and how low-paying the job of 'guard' is compared to 'adventurer', they might be all you can get.

Personally, I imagine any decently high-magic world to have low-level guards more as coal mine canaries than anything. Their job isn't to fend off powerful nasties, they're ambulatory tripwires used to alert a reaction squad of higher-level characters that a problem is inbound.

[Necroticplague]

Considering how rare high-level characters are relative to a general population, and how low-paying the job of 'guard' is compared to 'adventurer', they might be all you can get. High level characters aren't what I was thinking about. I was thinking more things along the lines of Giants, Trolls, and Undead (the latter of which conveniently self-multiply, helping us ignore questions of rarity).

Good point on the pay though. Anyone who could actually deal with a Troll that wants to stop by for a snack probably has a more profitable occupation.


Personally, I imagine any decently high-magic world to have low-level guards more as coal mine canaries than anything. Their job isn't to fend off powerful nasties, they're ambulatory tripwires used to alert a reaction squad of higher-level characters that a problem is inbound.
Also an excellent possibility especially considering items that act like Status exist.

[Zanos]

I agree with Necroticplague. The ability helps with fear immunity and nothing else, and therefore does nothing if your target is immune to your spell from a source other than fear immunity.


High level characters aren't what I was thinking about. I was thinking more things along the lines of Giants, Trolls, and Undead (the latter of which conveniently self-multiply, helping us ignore questions of rarity).

Good point on the pay though. Anyone who could actually deal with a Troll that wants to stop by for a snack probably has a more profitable occupation.
Most of those threats exist at a point where they're a terror for level 3 warriors in melee combat, but not exactly a terror to a mass of level 3 warriors on a wall with longbows.