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jhonny
2018-02-23, 01:18 PM
Can Some one please try to expand the meaning and differences of Summon, Invoke, evoke, Call, conjure.

For example wich ones have authority involved, wich ones the conjured could resist, rebel. every one of them have time of permanence, any of them would restrict the level of the summoned allied or their status intelligence/strengh. Can you call one get 2 or more

Can you use the same to companions, beasts, demons, dead ones and other dimensional beings.

jhonny
2018-02-23, 04:14 PM
or should I use summon to everything and let it be.

Lord Torath
2018-02-23, 04:17 PM
I suspect you might get more responses if you re-post this in the appropriate sub-forum for the system you are using:

D&D 5e/Next (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-D-amp-D-5e-Next)
D&D 4e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?58-D-amp-D-4e)
D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?59-D-amp-D-3e-3-5e-d20)
Older D&D/AD&D and Other Systems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?60-Older-D-amp-D-AD-amp-D-and-Other-Systems)

The different editions defined these terms differently, and applied different rules to them.

jhonny
2018-02-23, 04:29 PM
If it cant be here and moved it to where it should be.

Kish
2018-02-23, 04:31 PM
Which game do you want an answer for? Summoning spells are different in each D&D edition.

jhonny
2018-02-23, 04:35 PM
Which game do you want an answer for? Summoning spells are different in each D&D edition.

Can I trouble you and ask where it could be better answer?

D&D 5e/Next
D&D 4e
D&D 3e/3.5e/d20
Older D&D/AD&D and Other Systems

I need something more complete, so I can use the words in their truly meaning.

The older the better? or the 5e is more ample or more restrict.

Quertus
2018-02-23, 04:51 PM
You're asking if the words have some inherent meaning, independent of system? Hmmm... not that I'm aware of. Playground?

jhonny
2018-02-23, 05:07 PM
You're asking if the words have some inherent meaning, independent of system? Hmmm... not that I'm aware of. Playground?

I would like to know exactly that, if there is an inherent meaning to this words, that make them be used to one kind of beings, if not can you all help me create it to different kind of beings, maybe we should be the first ones to do that.

Kish
2018-02-23, 05:10 PM
The rules distinguishing different kinds of D&D magic are fundamentally arbitrary. Someone could tell you what the distinction between "summoning" and "calling" is one given edition, but not what it means "independent of games."

jhonny
2018-02-23, 05:18 PM
Ok but Can I trouble you all to write what it means to you, and how can you improve its meaning.

I really would like to use the right one to bring forth the being that I am summoning/invoking/ evoking/ calling/conjuring.

Can you see that is not good to have a lot of words with the same meaning in magic one little word can ruin a chant, if you misplaced the word needed you may not get what you need.

JeenLeen
2018-02-23, 05:19 PM
System-independent, I don't think the words have any significant difference. Some might have slightly different denotations (actual definitions) or connotations (emotional weight or implied meaning), but they are subtle and rather minor.

In D&D, Summoning something is usually pulling a sort of image of it from another realm as a fully-obedient servant. Calling is allowing an actual being that may or may not agree to serve you (or try to rebel) to come forth and try to bargain with it or bind it. Since that is a popular game, those meanings likely carry over in the minds of many players -- BUT many games don't use them like that. I've seen "Call" refer to just requesting a spirit come with no compulsion behind it. Exalted 2nd edition just have "Summon" spells that let you try to bind an elemental or demon into subservience.

I was going to say "evoke" isn't really appropriate, but in typing it into Google the second definition of "evoke" is "invoke"... so that's a quirk of English I didn't know. You're probably better using one or the other if doing a technical term for your magic system or metaphysics. I mainly say this to avoid confusion or grammatical nitpicking.

I think you'd be best off thinking of what sorts of ways "summoning" (under whatever name or names) can work in your game, and think of an internally consistent term to be used for the rules (and probably in academia in-universe, for simplicity).

Xuc Xac
2018-02-23, 05:27 PM
You're asking if the words have some inherent meaning, independent of system? Hmmm... not that I'm aware of. Playground?

Summon: You call them to appear and they answer the call because you have authority. This is the word used when courts and churches say "come here". The word comes from "secret warning" because there's an implied threat like "come here or else".

Invoke: "calling in". You perform an effect by getting the power from outside and calling it in to you. Priests perform miracles by invoking the names of their deities. Wizards, too. Before D&D divided magic into arcane and divine, wizards called on spirits, angels, demons, gods, or whatever just like priests. Spells are just really specific prayers. This is what Dr. Strange does when he says things like "By the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak!" or "By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!" He's asking otherworldly entities to give him the power to do something. Priests usually just invoke their gods, while wizards will invoke anybody who can be relied on to answer.

Evoke: "calling out". Where invoke is "Thor, give me strength to smite my enemies! *priest gets adrenaline surge and goes berserk*", evoke is "Thor, smite my enemies! *lightning bolt out of nowhere*". You call a supernatural power to do its thing directly instead of granting power to you. Originally, I think this was used to call gods out of the temples where they were asked to live: "Hey, Mars! Come out here and bless the army. We're on our way out of town to do some conquering." But, you know, they asked more nicely.

Call: Just a generic term for any of the above. Summon is a call they have to answer. Invoke calls their power into you or something else in front of you. Evoke calls them to show their power directly.

Conjure: Where "summon" is a threatening "come here or else", "conjure" is a pleading "come here, please, I'll be your best friend! Do you like cookies? I'll give you some cookies if you come. I swear!" Traditionally, there's some sort of mutual arrangement. If you summon a demon to serve you, he answers because you have some kind of authority or force over him. If you conjure a demon, he comes because you promise to do a favor in return.

CarpeGuitarrem
2018-02-23, 06:32 PM
My take:

Summon: you call a being to yourself from somewhere, usually another plane. Either you have legitimate authority over them, or you've stolen authority and are trying to bind them with your magical ability.

Invoke: you're calling on the authority of a higher being, like invoking the power/name of a deity (which are more or less the same thing). Should not be used in vain, for poor purpose, because you've presumably been given a trust.

Evoke: you're calling forth magical power from yourself in order to produce an effect.

Call: since "invoke" and "evoke" are both derived from "vocare", which means "call", they're actually subsets of this.

Conjure: usually contains connotations of being a magician and using mysterious power in order to produce an object or creature.

mikeejimbo
2018-02-26, 12:18 PM
Summon: You call them to appear and they answer the call because you have authority. This is the word used when courts and churches say "come here". The word comes from "secret warning" because there's an implied threat like "come here or else".

Invoke: "calling in". You perform an effect by getting the power from outside and calling it in to you. Priests perform miracles by invoking the names of their deities. Wizards, too. Before D&D divided magic into arcane and divine, wizards called on spirits, angels, demons, gods, or whatever just like priests. Spells are just really specific prayers. This is what Dr. Strange does when he says things like "By the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak!" or "By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!" He's asking otherworldly entities to give him the power to do something. Priests usually just invoke their gods, while wizards will invoke anybody who can be relied on to answer.

Evoke: "calling out". Where invoke is "Thor, give me strength to smite my enemies! *priest gets adrenaline surge and goes berserk*", evoke is "Thor, smite my enemies! *lightning bolt out of nowhere*". You call a supernatural power to do its thing directly instead of granting power to you. Originally, I think this was used to call gods out of the temples where they were asked to live: "Hey, Mars! Come out here and bless the army. We're on our way out of town to do some conquering." But, you know, they asked more nicely.

Call: Just a generic term for any of the above. Summon is a call they have to answer. Invoke calls their power into you or something else in front of you. Evoke calls them to show their power directly.

Conjure: Where "summon" is a threatening "come here or else", "conjure" is a pleading "come here, please, I'll be your best friend! Do you like cookies? I'll give you some cookies if you come. I swear!" Traditionally, there's some sort of mutual arrangement. If you summon a demon to serve you, he answers because you have some kind of authority or force over him. If you conjure a demon, he comes because you promise to do a favor in return.

All of the above is accurate.

Segev
2018-02-26, 12:38 PM
To get really pedantic as to the meanings of words in English...

Invoke: You invoke rights, privileges, and authorities. One, for instance, can invoke one's right to a lawyer in the American justice system. The opening prayer in LDS events is often called the "invocation," as well, because we invoke God to preside over the event. (Basically just calling upon Him to send His Spirit to watch over and bless us as we go about the business of it.) In D&D terms, most spells would be invocations. You invoke the magic to do whatever you want it to do.

Evoke: In D&D terms, an evocation is a projection of energy or power in an immediate display. In more common terms, to evoke is to bring into being, or call to mind. It is an expression of sympathetic concepts. One evokes imagery of an idea to help convey it. "To call upon" is a valid synonymic phrase.

Summon: A summons is a demand that something appear in your presence. It inherently requires that whatever you're calling come to you. In modern times, people still receive "summons to appear before the court" to invoke legal authority requiring them to come at a specific time to a specific location.

Conjure: To conjure is literally to gather together. Mystically speaking, it tends to be similar to summoning, but is more likely to be of a non-living thing. Conjuring a spirit can be said to render it visible and coherent, where summoning a spirit can be said to drag it to you. In D&D, there's a game-specific difference that conjured stuff is just THERE now, while summoned stuff is pulled there temporarily and will "snap back" when the spell is over. Though summoning in D&D is a subset of the school of Conjuration.

Call: Highly system-dependent. In English, it means just... to reach out and contact with the intent of getting somebody (or something)'s attention. A call is a cry, a signal, targeted or...not. In mystical terms, to Call an entity usually is to ask it and to invite it to come to you, or at least to respond to your attempt at contact. It rarely implies, by itself, any sort of control. In D&D, Calling a creature is bringing it to you in person, rather than Summoning it by bringing it to you in spirit (and often cloaking that spirit in temporary magic-granted flesh). Called creatures are less restricted than Summoned ones, but more vulnerable to real harm. They may or may not be bound to the Caller's will.

jhonny
2018-02-26, 03:38 PM
To get really pedantic as to the meanings of words in English...

Invoke: You invoke rights, privileges, and authorities. One, for instance, can invoke one's right to a lawyer in the American justice system. The opening prayer in LDS events is often called the "invocation," as well, because we invoke God to preside over the event. (Basically just calling upon Him to send His Spirit to watch over and bless us as we go about the business of it.) In D&D terms, most spells would be invocations. You invoke the magic to do whatever you want it to do.

Evoke: In D&D terms, an evocation is a projection of energy or power in an immediate display. In more common terms, to evoke is to bring into being, or call to mind. It is an expression of sympathetic concepts. One evokes imagery of an idea to help convey it. "To call upon" is a valid synonymic phrase.

Summon: A summons is a demand that something appear in your presence. It inherently requires that whatever you're calling come to you. In modern times, people still receive "summons to appear before the court" to invoke legal authority requiring them to come at a specific time to a specific location.

Conjure: To conjure is literally to gather together. Mystically speaking, it tends to be similar to summoning, but is more likely to be of a non-living thing. Conjuring a spirit can be said to render it visible and coherent, where summoning a spirit can be said to drag it to you. In D&D, there's a game-specific difference that conjured stuff is just THERE now, while summoned stuff is pulled there temporarily and will "snap back" when the spell is over. Though summoning in D&D is a subset of the school of Conjuration.

Call: Highly system-dependent. In English, it means just... to reach out and contact with the intent of getting somebody (or something)'s attention. A call is a cry, a signal, targeted or...not. In mystical terms, to Call an entity usually is to ask it and to invite it to come to you, or at least to respond to your attempt at contact. It rarely implies, by itself, any sort of control. In D&D, Calling a creature is bringing it to you in person, rather than Summoning it by bringing it to you in spirit (and often cloaking that spirit in temporary magic-granted flesh). Called creatures are less restricted than Summoned ones, but more vulnerable to real harm. They may or may not be bound to the Caller's will.

Thx a lot everyone.

So I think now we can put it to ge some meaning like this maybe:

CALL: Should be the attempt to invite someone ( monster/animal/beast/other dimensional beings,...), or only callyng their power to your location risking your life in the way. If you call, you ll have to bind the one that answer your call to control it or let it be free and rampage the sorround, there is no time limit.
The chance of sucess will be low if high grade beings and high if low grade. ( will be possible to call more than one? or the being should not answer if more than one call?)

CONJURE: Should be the attempt to invite beings that are weaker than you with high chance of sucess for an extended time (more than one possible), if a similar level being is conjured have a middle chance of sucess for a short time (not more than 2 maybe), and can only conjure some strong beings with low chance of sucess if you ´´pay the right price``(could be a sacrifice-(a necromancer would like this), items,...] anything the conjured should desired (definitely not more than one and the being should say the time that he will stay).

SUMMON: Should be not the attempt but the real deal you summon you get it, for a short time, possible more than one if low Lvl beings, (Can summon 10 soldier but not 1 general^^), Summon randonly Lvl beings at same Lvl or Lower never higher.

INVOKE: Should be the same as summon anytime you invoke you get it, borrow the power of greater beings, should be possible to use by non magical beings, can even summon servants of the being invoke with randonly Lvls some even higher than yours. Of course should be like a magical item that have a limited use 1, 2 or 3 puff and the item vanish, and you will need to kneel and beg a lot to gain one again :P .

EVOKE: Should be same as CALL, you have some friendship with some greater beings but you dont have anything with you so you try to ask for a helping hand, maybe if you perform some good deeds for the being but not enough to get an item but surely for a helping hand in desperate times, If the help come not like Call you dont need to do any binding, but maybe the help is not a hand but a finger or two. ( not shure if I would like Evoking).

What do you guys think about this, should be possible to use in a game like this now? any way to go better?

jhonny
2018-02-26, 03:51 PM
I can even use a system of faith, if it is a god being, to get points and so you can get spells, items, or the favor of the being to use INVOKE and EVOKE.

Segev
2018-02-26, 04:20 PM
Thx a lot everyone.

So I think now we can put it to ge some meaning like this maybe:

CALL: Should be the attempt to invite someone ( monster/animal/beast/other dimensional beings,...), or only callyng their power to your location risking your life in the way. If you call, you ll have to bind the one that answer your call to control it or let it be free and rampage the sorround, there is no time limit.
The chance of sucess will be low if high grade beings and high if low grade. ( will be possible to call more than one? or the being should not answer if more than one call?)

CONJURE: Should be the attempt to invite beings that are weaker than you with high chance of sucess for an extended time (more than one possible), if a similar level being is conjured have a middle chance of sucess for a short time (not more than 2 maybe), and can only conjure some strong beings with low chance of sucess if you ´´pay the right price``(could be a sacrifice-(a necromancer would like this), items,...] anything the conjured should desired (definitely not more than one and the being should say the time that he will stay).

SUMMON: Should be not the attempt but the real deal you summon you get it, for a short time, possible more than one if low Lvl beings, (Can summon 10 soldier but not 1 general^^), Summon randonly Lvl beings at same Lvl or Lower never higher.

INVOKE: Should be the same as summon anytime you invoke you get it, borrow the power of greater beings, should be possible to use by non magical beings, can even summon servants of the being invoke with randonly Lvls some even higher than yours. Of course should be like a magical item that have a limited use 1, 2 or 3 puff and the item vanish, and you will need to kneel and beg a lot to gain one again :P .

EVOKE: Should be same as CALL, you have some friendship with some greater beings but you dont have anything with you so you try to ask for a helping hand, maybe if you perform some good deeds for the being but not enough to get an item but surely for a helping hand in desperate times, If the help come not like Call you dont need to do any binding, but maybe the help is not a hand but a finger or two. ( not shure if I would like Evoking).

What do you guys think about this, should be possible to use in a game like this now? any way to go better?
I'd swap what you're calling Call and Evoke, here, but otherwise looks reasonable enough to me.


I do think you're putting the cart before the horse, here, though. You seem to be trying to develop a game system. The first thing you want to do when developing a game system is ask yourself what kind of games it is meant to run. What do you want to be able to do in it? In particular, I would pay attention to what other game systems do well, and see if what you want to do is already doable with extant ones; it will save you a lot of work. It's usually only worthwhile to invent your own if you have something you can't find being done in extant systems that you want to emulate for your game(s).

Creating your own system to run, say, Wheel of Time makes sense, because so far I haven't seen any good mechanics that would emulate Channeling the One Power in any systems with which I'm familiar. Creating your own system to run fantasy games where you don't already have a magic system in mind...just use D&D or any other fantasy or generic system.

I'm not trying to discourage you, here, but if you don't have a clear goal as to what you want it to enable you to do, you'll never forge a system that really pleases you.