Subclass, a half gestalt idea

[Crow_Nightfeath]

So there is an idea I've been thinking about off and on, I've never really been a fan of the full gestalt rules, cause you could take wizard and barbarian and get the best of both worlds. So I thought of the subclass system, a half gestalt idea.

The subclass system works as follows:
~You pick two different classes
One is the main class the other is the subclass, you pick which is which. The main class gains a level every time you increase in level like normal. The subclass gains a level every 2 levels starting at level 1 (1, 3, 5, 7, etc.)
~HD; You add their HD types together and divide by 2 (round up to nearest even die code in case of an odd number)
~Skill points; add the two classes together and divide by 2
~The class skills are both classes lists combined.
~Base attack bonus; good and average becomes good, bad and average becomes average, bad and good becomes average (good is Bab=HD, average is Bab=3/4HD, bad is Bab=1/2HD)
~Saves are the main class's saves
~Weapons and armor proficiencies are both classes combined

So caster level and such is based off whether it is the main class of subclass. Like a level 10 cleric(M)/fighter(s) would have a caster level of 10 and be treated as a level 5 fighter for fighter specific feats (like weapon specialization), while a level 10 fighter(M)/cleric(s) would have a caster level of 5 and be treated as fighter level 10 for fighter specific feats.
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One of the things I'm not sure how would work is prestige classes. And I'm also not entirely sure how CR is effected by it. I haven't actually been able to play test it yet. Anyone see any potential problems? Did I forget anything?

Also as a side note this was originally intended for a campaign that was going to be like Sword Art Online or Log Horizon, as in based in a video game.

[DMVerdandi]

So there is an idea I've been thinking about off and on, I've never really been a fan of the full gestalt rules, cause you could take wizard and barbarian and get the best of both worlds. So I thought of the subclass system, a half gestalt idea.

The subclass system works as follows:
~You pick two different classes
One is the main class the other is the subclass, you pick which is which. The main class gains a level every time you increase in level like normal. The subclass gains a level every 2 levels starting at level 1 (1, 3, 5, 7, etc.)
~HD; You add their HD types together and divide by 2 (round up to nearest even die code in case of an odd number)
~Skill points; add the two classes together and divide by 2
~The class skills are both classes lists combined.
~Base attack bonus; good and average becomes good, bad and average becomes average, bad and good becomes average (good is Bab=HD, average is Bab=3/4HD, bad is Bab=1/2HD)
~Saves are the main class's saves
~Weapons and armor proficiencies are both classes combined

So caster level and such is based off whether it is the main class of subclass. Like a level 10 cleric(M)/fighter(s) would have a caster level of 10 and be treated as a level 5 fighter for fighter specific feats (like weapon specialization), while a level 10 fighter(M)/cleric(s) would have a caster level of 5 and be treated as fighter level 10 for fighter specific feats.
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One of the things I'm not sure how would work is prestige classes. And I'm also not entirely sure how CR is effected by it. I haven't actually been able to play test it yet. Anyone see any potential problems? Did I forget anything?

Also as a side note this was originally intended for a campaign that was going to be like Sword Art Online or Log Horizon, as in based in a video game.

Well, honestly, I don't really know why anyone would choose certain classes under this type of situation, or if there are classes that mimic, or even exceed what you get as prestige classes, why would it really be worth taking? Skill points always end up being reduced if you are taking a 6+ class to 4.
If you are going for a half caster, it would almost never make sense to choose a caster as secondary, while it makes all the sense to take them as primary.

All of the benefits go towards a spell caster primary, but spell caster secondary falls towards the wayside[I.E martial/skilled]

It's stronger than the Variant multi class system for pathfinder, and it's weaker than gestalt for 3.5 .
It encourages everyone to be a spell caster even more, and a martial primary even less, especially because you can much more easily have a beefy mage, than a casty martial.


But, it's your thing, do what you will with it.



Personally, I think that a system revamp with all sorts of casting mechanics that are worked into the base classes would be much cooler, but that might never happen.
Essentially, maneuvers existing alongside all of the casting mechanics (spells, powers,incarnum,binding) and then perhaps staggered experience gestalt.


Yeah, that was the coolest thing about 2e.:smallbiggrin:
I'd make it a 20 level class that gives you the best of the benefits of 2 classes and full progression, but gives you +1 LA. Adding a third class makes it +2 LA. Then have it so that if you leave the class before it ends, you cannot progress any further, and that is for multi classes and prestige. It also has to be taken at level 1, and if exited you can't take levels in the classes you chose in the .

That way you can have gestalts and tristalts in the same game, while balancing them out a little bit with slower growth, and coming up with sick combinations.

mmm...Freelancer.

[EldritchWeaver]

~HD; You add their HD types together and divide by 2 (round up to nearest even die code in case of an odd number)
~Skill points; add the two classes together and divide by 2
~The class skills are both classes lists combined.
~Base attack bonus; good and average becomes good, bad and average becomes average, bad and good becomes average (good is Bab=HD, average is Bab=3/4HD, bad is Bab=1/2HD)
~Saves are the main class's saves
~Weapons and armor proficiencies are both classes combined


I would take more of the gestalt rules and use the better ones available. Fighters would be penalized too much going castery. Worse BAB, worse hp. Skills are likely a bit better, rest is unchanged. In reverse, casters get more BAB and more hp and better weapon and armor proficiencies. As DMVerdandi also noted, the hit to caster level makes it completely stupid to use Fighters as primary, even if you get some supplemental spells out of it. But going gish is far easier and more powerful with a full caster than with the reverse.

[digiman619]

Well, if you want to mix and match class features, but don't want to just weld two classes together. there's these Partial Gestalt rules (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cx6Q2UTfL9yR1Zbh8uy7ZFYzql6ZFDTppZ8AdeeNsbw/edit#) I've found. Admittedly, you would need to backport it from Pathfinder, but there's a lot of goodness in there.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Lots of great points, though it's supposed to penalize HD if you're choosing something with a tiny HD like wizard or sorcerer. It's to keep a relative balance to the health. Cause as my opening post stated being a barbarian/wizard with gestalt you get the d12 HD good attack bonus, and being a full caster.
With the subclass system it would be d8 HD and average attack bonus, along with being a full caster.
(I also realize the same happens with a fighter through subclass)

Though you can look at it the other way, basically anything but being a wizard & sorcerer will give a boost to both attack bonus and HD. Though those two will never get over a d8 HD and average attack bonus.

[DMVerdandi]

Lots of great points, though it's supposed to penalize HD if you're choosing something with a tiny HD like wizard or sorcerer. It's to keep a relative balance to the health. Cause as my opening post stated being a barbarian/wizard with gestalt you get the d12 HD good attack bonus, and being a full caster.
With the subclass system it would be d8 HD and average attack bonus, along with being a full caster.
(I also realize the same happens with a fighter through subclass)

Though you can look at it the other way, basically anything but being a wizard & sorcerer will give a boost to both attack bonus and HD. Though those two will never get over a d8 HD and average attack bonus.

Personally it just seems like a whole other ivory tower being built.

Here is an example. If you are playing regular gestalt, and you want to play a Rogue//Barbarian, you get all of the best attributes, but it's strictly worse with yours, and furthermore, depending on which one is the primary, your saves take a hit, and the abilities you get are offset.
In that situation, A rogue//barbarian is quite a bit more useful than a Barbarian//Rogue.

However a Caster//XX is ALWAYS better than XX//Caster. So it just reinforces caster supremacy, while making mundane gestalt combinations necessarily worse without any restitution.


Even though I approve strongly of caster supremacy, this just makes it worse, and the players if they are even half savvy will pick that up as well.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Yeah, and as I was thinking about it I remembered that for that campaign I had a list of classes for main and for sub. I remember wanting to use this to make the harder to use or weaker classes relevant, like artificer and factotum. I know limiting the classes solves a lot of the problems, but takes away from the potential combinations.

[Florian]

@Crow:

Take a look at the PF VMC concept (Pathfinder, Variant Multiclassing, Pathfinder Unchained section in the PRD). Basically, you exchange 5 out of 10 feats to grab the core class features of a secondary class and spread it out to 20 levels - so you could either go Paladin3/Oracle 3 or Paladin 6 VMC Oracle, Oracle 6 VMC Paladin.

[heavyfuel]

~HD; You add their HD types together and divide by 2 (round up to nearest even die code in case of an odd number)
~Skill points; add the two classes together and divide by 2
~Base attack bonus; good and average becomes good, bad and average becomes average, bad and good becomes average (good is Bab=HD, average is Bab=3/4HD, bad is Bab=1/2HD)

These 3 rules are terrible for main class skill-monkeys and martials

A Wizard(M)/Ranger(S) has a d6, 4 skill points, and 3/4 bab, which is alright.

But a Ranger(M)/Wizard(S) also has a d6, 4 skill points, and 3/4 bab, which is most definitely not alright.

There's no reason to pick martial or skill-monkey classes as a main class.

Averaging rules should only be for things that are worse for your main class.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

These 3 rules are terrible for main class skill-monkeys and martials

A Wizard(M)/Ranger(S) has a d6, 4 skill points, and 3/4 bab, which is alright.

But a Ranger(M)/Wizard(S) also has a d6, 4 skill points, and 3/4 bab, which is most definitely not alright.

There's no reason to pick martial or skill-monkey classes as a main class.

Averaging rules should only be for things that are worse for your main class.

If you pick a wiz/sor as main or sub there isn't, what about a rogue (m)/ranger(s)? d8 HD, good attack bonus, and 7+ skill points, sneak attack goes up every 2 levels, favoured enemy, and combat style.

[heavyfuel]

If you pick a wiz/sor as main or sub there isn't, what about a rogue (m)/ranger(s)? d8 HD, good attack bonus, and 7+ skill points, sneak attack goes up every 2 levels, favoured enemy, and combat style.

This really doesn't address the point. At all.

3 people have said that your system is incredibly favorable of casters (who don't need help in the first place). And you yourself said you wanted to help weaker classes, so why make them even weaker?

As it stands, it's just a bad, poorly though out system.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Yeah, but all everyone has done has said casters are favourable with it. And aside from a completely different system no one has actually offered any input on how to try solving that problem, well and your scrap the whole system.

I'm also not looking at making a "powerful" system, I'm looking for making something that would make players actually think about what choosing certain combinations does to their character.

I would like suggestions on how to fix the caster favortism with it. And maybe suggestions on ways to improve on some of the other things that are a bit rough, like the saves. I don't want to do average on the saves, or best of both, but there probably should be something.

[Gnaeus]

We do something like that, but more complicated.

The DM breaks down the sub class into about 8 parts. Really big things like full casting or AC progression may be 2 or 3. At levels 1,2,6,10,14 we get a pick off the subclass menu. Our class level for class abilities that we obtain from subclass picks is our full class level, but casting progression is usually delayed.

So for ranger the picks might be something like
Full BAB
Pick 2 feats from the bonus feat list. If level 11+ pick 3.
Ranger casting
Favored enemy
Favored terrain
Animal companion
Track and other wilderness junk

For Witch it might be
Familiar
Casting progression 1, 2, 3
Patron
Hex (can be taken again for more hexes)
Greater hex

[EldritchWeaver]

Yeah, but all everyone has done has said casters are favourable with it. And aside from a completely different system no one has actually offered any input on how to try solving that problem, well and your scrap the whole system.

There have been this post with a proposal how to improve your system without scrapping it:


I would take more of the gestalt rules and use the better ones available.

Upon which you replied:


Lots of great points, though it's supposed to penalize HD if you're choosing something with a tiny HD like wizard or sorcerer. It's to keep a relative balance to the health. Cause as my opening post stated being a barbarian/wizard with gestalt you get the d12 HD good attack bonus, and being a full caster.
With the subclass system it would be d8 HD and average attack bonus, along with being a full caster.
(I also realize the same happens with a fighter through subclass)

Though you can look at it the other way, basically anything but being a wizard & sorcerer will give a boost to both attack bonus and HD. Though those two will never get over a d8 HD and average attack bonus.


I'm also not looking at making a "powerful" system, I'm looking for making something that would make players actually think about what choosing certain combinations does to their character.

I would like suggestions on how to fix the caster favortism with it. And maybe suggestions on ways to improve on some of the other things that are a bit rough, like the saves. I don't want to do average on the saves, or best of both, but there probably should be something.

Which means that the sole suggestion which would keep your system mostly untouched, was thrown out. But looking at the facts, namely that certain combinations are trash compared to others and those worthwhile are always fullcaster//something, increasing the caster supremacy, shows that they are contrary to your goals. The only positive way to deal with this is that you accept that your pet system doesn't work and are willing to start from scratch using the additional knowledge. Complaining that there isn't any advice for your system (and "don't use it" is actually advice) wastes just everyones time.

[grarrrg]

Recommendation for Bab/skills/HD:
If main class is higher, use main class numbers. If secondary class is higher, use 'average'.
This doesn't penalize primary martials and skill monkeys, and only gives partial bonus to primary casters.

Saves:
Use main class saves, if secondary class has a good save that the main class doesn't, then you get a +2 to that save at level 2 (possibly an extra point every X levels).

[lylsyly]

When I DM I restrict PC Races to the ones that have a published Paragon Class. I give it to PCs as a freebie using full gestalt rules. I will sometimes allow a player to take 3 levels after that of another class with certain limitations.

1. NO arcane/divine caster combos.
2. NO Fighter, Barbarian, or Monk / arcane caster combos (I do allow divine and savage Bard from UA).

Got to have a GOOD backstory to explain it though:smallbiggrin:

[mabriss lethe]

I forget where the partial gestalt suggestion I saw was (maybe one of JaronK's)
It was Tier based and it works rather well, it goes something like this:

T1 and 2: No multiclassing allowed
T3 and 4: May multiclass with any NPC class
T5 and 6: May freely multiclass with NPC class or other class in same bracket.

The upshot is that potentially game breaking classes don't get any extra tricks out of it. Mid tier classes get to tweak their characters a bit, better BAB, HD, Saves, Skill points/lists, or add a little magic. Lower rung classes can find something to compliment them and hopefully push their effectiveness into the Mid-tier range.

[QuadraticGish]

I got inspired looking at this, so I decided to take my own stab at it.


The subclass system works as follows:
You pick two different classes.

One class you select to be the primary class, or referred now as your main class. The other class, is now considered the sub class.
Chassis: The character uses the chassis(BAB, Saves, Skills, HD) of the main class and may replace two of those elements with what the sub class possesses. If skills are chosen, instead take the higher of the two classes skill points per level and combine their class skill list. If saves are chosen, you may take the best combination of their main and sub class's save progression.
Proficiencies: Combine the proficiency list of the main andsub class.
Class features: At first level, you possess both class features of your main class and your sub class.


Sub class advancement: Your sub class advances every time you gain a HD, except every 3rd one. Example given, is that you would not gain class features from your sub class at HD 3,6,9,12,15,18 and so on.

I had an exert for combining overlapping class features(such as spellcasting, initiating, ect.) or in case your sub class chassis had nothing to offer, but I think that might've been creeping power a little hard. Anyway, I went with 2/3rd since a lot of class major class features such as spellcasting is based on 3. So, I guess you could more accurately say this is 2/3rds gestalt.