The New Exemplars

[Millstone85]

Looking for the planar posterchildren of the 5e Great Wheel, here is what I picture:




angels



eladrin



djinn

marids





eladrin




modrons

humans

slaadi




shadar-kai





efreet

dao



devils

yugoloths

demons



Angels are described in the MM not as being of any good alignment, or as favoring lawful goodness, but as "the embodiment of law and good". The only concession to previous lore is that they are created by, and serve, deities of any good alignment. Also of note is that VGtM explains aasimar as "descended from humans with a touch of the power of Mount Celestia", specifically, and describes their typical angelic guide as a deva who "lives in a realm of absolute law and good". Meanwhile, there is no sign of the archons.

Eladrin, from what we have been told of the contents of the upcoming MToF, now exist in several forms that a single individual might go through Pokémon-style. There are eladrin (humanoid, elf), eladrin (fey), eladrin (fey, arch-) and eladrin (celestial), with the first three being typically encountered in the Feywild while the last one has been welcomed back in Arborea.

Humans are the most widespread race in the Material Plane, something MToF will apparently try to give an in-universe reason for.

Shadar-kai, again from talk on MToF, are the elves of the Shadowfell just like the eladrin are the elves of the Feywild. Time will tell if the symmetry goes beyond that, with more powerful forms of shadar-kai.

Others are mostly what and where you would expect them to be by previous lore, except that:
* There are no guardinals. In fact, I have yet to see a single neutral good celestial in this edition.
* There are no rilmani.
* Yugoloths have apparently had their origin story modified.

Do you agree with my assessment of the situation? If yes, what do you like or dislike about this? How do you think it might change with future books?

Me, I think this reinterpretation of angels and eladrin is pretty cool. I am most interested by the story of an angel who wouldn't get to live on Mount Celestia, being bound to a chaotic good deity in one of the wilder upper planes. I also think that giving the Feywild and Arborea this kind of connection might actually help make them feel less redundant with each other. Finally, I have hope for a return of the guardinals, perhaps with their main base in the Beastlands rather than in Elysium, like the yugoloths are from Gehenna rather than Hades.

[Naanomi]

I am not a fan of the changes... but I’m a Planescape fangirl so I may be biased in this matter.

Moving the yugoloth home plans shatters the (sometimes inelegant) symmetry of the Outer Planes. Tying them to night hags is bizarre, and throws Baernoloth (one of my favorite planar creatures) in the trash.

Making angels (as archon replacements m) and eladrin tied to the Gods in different ways completely ruins the concept of exemplars to me; who represent an order of the cosmos more fundamental and distinct from the Gods (who, as we know, didn’t always exist... the Outer Planes existed long before the Gods appeared and moved in). It cheapens the exemplars to make them just some type of divine servant or castoff, they are beings with deeper and more inscrutable concerns next to the (in many ways) more comprehensible and mortal-focused Gods.

I’m a little bit more OK with the Eladrin bits than the rest. Eladrin have always had somewhat mysterious origins, and are explicitly a replacement race for the original CG exemplars... Morwel and her kin being ascended fey-Elves filling that gap ruins the mystery a bit, bit is passable... the angel and yugoloth lore is harder to swollow though

[Potato_Priest]

I think your analysis is probably pretty close to correct. You certainly seems like you know more about it than I do.

Now for some uneducated opinions:

This stuff gets more interesting if you shave off the bottom and top layers entirely, thereby removing viewpoints that are objectively good and objectively evil from the cosmos.

Eladrin are wierd and I don't like 'em. They seem to cheapen the fey and arcane ties of the other elves, by being "elves, but elfier!".

I really like the different types of Genies and Fey. They have a lot of personallity. Slaads are kinda close to evil for "neutral" creatures, but I suppose that's to be expected fo the infamous chaotic neutral alignment.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think 5e is going to have "Exemplars" as a category of beings or even a concept.

[Naanomi]

I don't think 5e is going to have "Exemplars" as a category of beings or even a concept.
Perhaps not a ‘full set’ of them... but the existing fluff of both Modrons and Slaad have some hints of it

[Unoriginal]

Perhaps not a ‘full set’ of them... but the existing fluff of both Modrons and Slaad have some hints of it

I think they would have been mentioned explicitly already, if it was the case.

Modrons are creatured by Primus on purpose. Slaadi were accidentally created by Primus. Eladrins are de-powered entities who might reach the ancient semi-divine state of the Elves. Shadar-Kai are elves linked to the Raven Queen.

None of them share anything that would qualify as an "Exemplar" unifying factor, if I understand what the Exemplars were back then.

They're just diverse beings that live in the various Planes.

[Millstone85]

Making angels (as archon replacements m) and eladrin tied to the Gods in different ways completely ruins the concept of exemplars to me; who represent an order of the cosmos more fundamental and distinct from the Gods (who, as we know, didn’t always exist... the Outer Planes existed long before the Gods appeared and moved in). It cheapens the exemplars to make them just some type of divine servant or castoff, they are beings with deeper and more inscrutable concerns next to the (in many ways) more comprehensible and mortal-focused Gods.In defense of WotC, I would question if D&D creatures are equipped for that narrative. Every celestial in the MM and VGtM has the look to be worship material. So if they aren't servants of the gods, and actually hold deeper cosmic connections than them, why aren't they the gods? Something similar can probably be asked within the context of Evil Land, but I am too tired to try.

Also, it doesn't really conflict with the Outer Planes themselves being older than the gods. Once you start seeing the planes as these giant organisms everyone else lives inside of, probably sapient in some incommensurate way, now that is "true divinity" many mortals wouldn't have the patience to pray to when they can turn to a deity with a face. Amusingly, Celestia probably finds its most devout worshippers in the likes of Bahamut, Ilmater and Torm.


You certainly seems like you know more about it than I do.Most of what I remember on the subject must be from similar threads where Naanomi brought precisions. :smallsmile:


This stuff gets more interesting if you shave off the bottom and top layers entirely, thereby removing viewpoints that are objectively good and objectively evil from the cosmos.Well, that removes over 40% of the cosmology. I like Mechanus and Limbo well enough, and the idea that the D&D multiverse started with them, but I think Celestia, Arborea, the Abyss and the Nine are the ones really shaping the story.


Eladrin are wierd and I don't like 'em. They seem to cheapen the fey and arcane ties of the other elves, by being "elves, but elfier!".The irony here is that I think D&D only really delved into elves as fey descendants when it started giving them Feywild cousins. I could be wrong, though.


I think they would have been mentioned explicitly already, if it was the case.I read somewhere that it was always a fan term.

[Nifft]

Looking for the planar posterchildren of the 5e Great Wheel, here is what I picture:




angels



eladrin



djinn

marids





eladrin




modrons

humans

slaadi




shadar-kai





efreet

dao



devils

yugoloths

demons




That's an awesome table.

But are eladrin really supposed to appear in two different places?

[Naanomi]

So if they aren't servants of the gods, and actually hold deeper cosmic connections than them, why aren't they the gods? Something similar can probably be asked within the context of Evil Land, but I am too tired to try.
It is one of the conceits of Planescape, that Primes think that their Gods made the universe, have existed since the beginning of time, their realms are the whole of the afterlife, and are all powerful... but from a larger perspective there are beings definitively above them, as well as a host of creatures that run the planes more directly (exemplars), and a handful of beings that can challenge them directly.

A prime thinks that their God of the Sun is absolutely paramount, the creator of all light, the keeper of all righteous souls after their death... on the Planes he is ‘Solar God from Prime #3728’ one of uncountable Sun Gods living in the second layer of Arcadia

Gods are important because of the unique way they can process faith and empower worshipers, their massive individual power (a Greater God could still trash most of the exemplar lords in a one on one fight), and are in some ways part of the ‘chain of command’ from the ultimate authorities of creation (just not at the very top of it, with at least three levels of cosmic boss above them)


I read somewhere that it was always a fan term.
It was an explicit term in 3e; before that the system of ‘one race per alignment in the Outer Planes as part of the structure of reality’ was discussed but not specifically labeled with a consistent special term

Incidentally it only refers to beings on the Outer Planes, the place where such balance and consistency is most important. There are races ‘made out of’ Elemental, Shadow, and even more exotic stuff; but they are but they are not fundamentally representative nor cosmically ‘manage’ that substance themselves in some meaningful way. Djinn are not exemplars in the classic sense (just one of several generally Elemental races), nor are Shadar-Kai (unless 4e did something different with them, I am not fluent in 4eish)

[Potato_Priest]

Well, that removes over 40% of the cosmology. I like Mechanus and Limbo well enough, and the idea that the D&D multiverse started with them, but I think Celestia, Arborea, the Abyss and the Nine are the ones really shaping the story.


In my experience, the only planes that see active service in play from the "alligned" list are the nine hells and the abyss, and these types of stories tend to be the cliche "demon portal invasion" that we all know and are bored of. It could be that I just play with relatively new or unimaginative GMs, of course.

I much prefer the elemental planes and the feywild, but this is just personal opinion.

[Millstone85]

That's an awesome table.Thank you.


But are eladrin really supposed to appear in two different places?Okay, I must confess that...
Eladrin, from what we have been told of the contents of the upcoming MToF, now exist in several forms that a single individual might go through Pokémon-style. There are eladrin (humanoid, elf), eladrin (fey), eladrin (fey, arch-) and eladrin (celestial), with the first three being typically encountered in the Feywild while the last one has been welcomed back in Arborea. was a generous interpretation of what Jeremy Crawford said some 22 minutes into this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO0f3G4hu30&t=21m55s):
What we delve into in this book is the eladrin's relationship with their elven kin, because eladrin are also a type of elf. However, unlike other elves, they have really connected deeply to realm of the Feywild, and as a result of that you have a mix where some of them are humanoid like other elves, and so the eladrin that you can play are humanoid, but then there are other eladrin that have been so transformed by the realm of féerie that they have become fey. And some of them can even then become archfey. And some of them have so attracted the notice of the elf gods that those eladrin have been invited back to Arvandor, where they dwell with the gods.

I am assuming Arvandor is still considered either another name or a major part of Arborea, that what Crawford is talking about is different from an eladrin going there upon their death, and that they would gain the celestial type like the elves the DMG already say are born here.


It was an explicit term in 3e; before that the system of ‘one race per alignment in the Outer Planes as part of the structure of reality’ was discussed but not specifically labeled with a consistent special term

Incidentally it only refers to beings on the Outer PlanesIn that case, maybe I should have stuck with the more inclusive term of "planar posterchild".

[Naanomi]

An interesting aside, nearly all of the original exemplar races were replaced over time; and in the beginning there may have only been four or five of them...


Unknown proto-Good exemplars (who may have just been Angels, but maybe not) fostered diverse goodness... giving rise to...

—LG Archons, who persist to this day
—NG Guardinals, who supplanted their creators as guardians of pure Good in what would later be called Elysium
—A CG race who is all but forgotten now, their name unknown and their scattered ruins spread across the third layer of Arborea... it is thought that they became too obsessed with individual expression and unburdened free will, ultimately isolating themselves in private dimensions and then fading away entirely... replace ultimately by...
*—CG Eladrin, focused on inspiring righteous individuality in others rather than expressing it only themselves, were raised up (possibly from the faerie Plane, in 2e associates with the CG upper planes), sometime well before the War of Law and Chaos

Similarly, evil beings known as Baernoloth (who still exist, though in few numbers and mostly in isolation) attempted to ‘purify’ Evil from the influences of Law and Chaos... creating one race and inadvertently giving rise to others...
—NE Yugoloth, the end result of the Baernoloth experiments... though lots of lore says maybe the experiments were a failure and Yugoloth haven’t fully replaced the Baernoloth as the NE exemplar race
—CE Obyrith, born from the discarded CE essence and the (weirdly active malevolent intelligence of) Abyss itself. Highly varied in form, with little consistency as a race. During the War of Law and Chaos, they figured out how to then mortal souls into a new kind of soldier-demon...
*—CE Tanar’ri overthrew their creators, and ultimately gained the support of The Abyss/CEness itself to supplant them
—LE Ancient Baatorians, about which little is known (partially because Asmodeus actively surpresses knowledge of their existence) other than that they eventually ‘evolved’ past having a physical body at all and just existed as sort of a general disembodied ‘corruption’ since long before meaningful history was recorded on the Outer Planes. A few still exist here and there, both in physical and disembodied forms, and most classic versions of nupperibo were actually their larval form. With them, for all intents and purposes, leaving existence that left room for...
*—LE Baatezu, who moved in and took the abandoned place over. There are some signs that they are not fully an exemplar race, and that perhaps Baator doesn’t completely accept them as rightful rulers of the Plane; but for all practical purposes they run the show for LE

(Note: there are other demons and devils that are around, are fiends, but are not exemplars in any meaningful sense... imps and quasits for example)

Law and Chaos, as well as neutrality, were both a bit more monolithic

—LN modrons, acting as a virtual extension of both the plane of Mechanus and the singular being Primus, have been consistently present for as long as the Outer Planes have existed, though they may not have been the original exemplar race...
?—LN Anaphacts were once very important in Mechanus, though opinions are divided in if they were actually the exemplars or not. In any case, they disappeared/transformed sometime before the war of Law and Chaos

—CN True Slaad; Chaos initially didn’t have a single exemplar race, giving birth to infinite unrelated beings from microscopic powerless specs to mighty beings that put the Gods to shame with their power. One of their number, Ygorl, didn’t like the idea that chaos could create something more powerful than himself, so he worked to limit the creation of future Slaad into a single set of known forms (though not perfectly, at least one other True Slaad has been born since then)
*—Slaad, that froggy form, has since been the default exemplar of Chaos. However, Chaos chafes under the unnatural constraints of a single form; and so many ultimately turn towards evil and become Death Slaad in an attempt to ‘change’ more ‘naturally’

It is unclear if Neutrality initially had an exemplar race, partially because it is unclear if the Outlands meaningfully existed at the beginning of the Outer Planes, or came into existence later as the more pure alignments made contact with each other. In any case, it does have an exemplar race of its own.

—Kamerel were the first exemplar race of neutrality, expressing neutrality as extreme isolationism and resistance to outside influences of any kind that would upset their perfect balance. Their isolationism eventually led them to abandon the Outer Planes (fleeing into the mirror world), which naturally manifested a replacement... it is unclear if this happened before or after (or during) the War of Law and Chaos
*—Rilmani, representing a more ‘active’ form of neutrality; crusading around the planes to keep alignment forced balanced (though in practice rarely acting)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Are Inevitables not an Exemplar?

[Naanomi]

Are Inevitables not an Exemplar?
Nope, though they may be the creation of the anaphacts (or even *be* the anaphacts). Alongside other more mystical factors, the key identifying trait of an exemplar race is that if they die off their home plane they return there to be reborn (but sometimes the details play out differently for the different exemplars)

Most of the modern Exemplar races are created from mortal souls drawn to that plane (though the specifics vary), however this is not a requirement... the original exemplar races predated all the current mortal races and possibly mortal races all together

Inevitables are definetly creatures of Law, but are not the living embodiments of Lawful Neutrality like modrons are. All the alignments have champions apart from the exemplar races... Law has modrons, several types of Law spirits, inevitables, the Serpents of Law... Good has angels and several other kinds of celestial in addition to the exemplar races

[Millstone85]

New video featuring Jeremy Crawford talking about eladrin.

At 10:25 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJMvnT_JRa8#t=10m25s), he says:
Now, some people ask "What about the eladrin that in previous editions, especially back in second edition, who were in Arvandor and were with the elven gods and were considered celestials?". Well Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes actually delves into that part of the story also.

After this, if it turns out the 5e version is just "archfey in Arvandor" without the celestial type, I will be so angry.

[the_brazenburn]

What about formians? You know, those ant-like guys from 3.5 who lived on Mechanus. Are they Exemplars? After all, 3.5 didn't have any modrons.

[Naanomi]

What about formians? You know, those ant-like guys from 3.5 who lived on Mechanus. Are they Exemplars? After all, 3.5 didn't have any modrons.
It is... kind of a weird case. They were definetly (along with inevitables) the poster-child for Law, but they were not really the type of spiritual being that an exemplar is. 3e did have modrons, in a web-enhancement; and they are discussed in the Manual of the Planes amongst other places.

The thought was they looked weird and didn’t fit the aesthetic of 3e