Did some math on what levels to give exotic mounts, would love your opinions!

[Rfkannen]

So I was thinking about exotic mounts, aka anything more powerful than a warhorse, and I couldn't find anything about what levels to give them, so I did some math, and I am wondering what you think!

My goal was to figure out what levels you can give mounts without significantly changing the balance of a party, you could give a level 2 character a cr 20 mount if you wanted, but it would make you really have to make encounters differently. My hope is that the numbers I provide show when mounts are a nice boost but shouldn't really change encounter building much. I am not suggesting you shouldn't give higher cr mounts, this just seems when it wouldn't be that much of a power upgrade.

I want to be clear, I took calculus in high school but at this point I know basically no math, so I would not be surprised if I did this wrong, if you have any improvements I would love to hear them!


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My basic idea was to go off the find steed spells, find steed gives a practically immortal intelligent version of a mount, so I feel it would be okay to give a normal version of the mount at the level that someone could get the spell. I know that only paladins get those spells, and they are half casters, but I feel that the spells are balanced enough that we can do the math as if a full caster got them.

I do not think this devalues those spells, as any bought or raised would be mortal, and you would probably have to spend a lot of money training it. The same way someone buying a warhorse doesn't devalue your paladin.

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the find steed spell is second level, which means that a full caster could get it at level 3. so I would feel okay giving any cr 1/2 or lower creature at level 3, so a worg or an axebeak would be fine.

Than find greater steed is a 4th level spell, meaning a spellcaster could cast it at level 7. So at level 7 I would feel okay granting a cr 2 or lower creature as a mount, so a gelatinous cube or a giant constriction snake would be fine.

Now to make the math easier, lets bring both up by 1. So at level 4 you get a cr 1/2 creature and at level 8 you get cr 2. That means that at level 4 you can have a mount with cr of an eightth of your level, and at level 8 you can have a mount with a quarter your level.

So my extrapolation would be that, since 8 is twice 4, that at level 16, you will be able to have a monster of half your cr, that being 8

so than, what I would say is


level 2 you can have a cr 1/4 mount
level 4 you can have a cr 1/2 mount
level 6 you can have a cr 1 mount
level 8 you can have a cr 2 mount
level 12 you can have a cr 5 mount
level 16 you can have a cr 8 mount



and than to extrapolate without doing any math


level 20 you can have a cr 10 mount



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so what do you think? I assume I got at least part of this wrong, how would you change it?

another thing I couldn't figure out is what level is right to give a mount as a nice big reward. For example, a wyvern is cool at level 16, but is also kind of only okay, which was the point of this. What level would you give it as a big reward?

Any thoughts?

[Davrix]

You would be better off just scaling up mounts of lower CR with more HP and adding AC with barding. They should be able to take more hits that way but your not offering things that could potentially break your encounter math because having mounts above CR 5 is going to offer things that the party would not get with normal mounts and it takes a bit away from things like the find greater steed spell.

That being said if you want exotic mounts just simply re-skin some things with the higher CR health give them plate barding or make it faster with light barding... You get the idea. The biggest problem at higher level is that mounts just die from AE very easily or a stray hit.

[Rfkannen]

You would be better off just scaling up mounts of lower CR with more HP and adding AC with barding. They should be able to take more hits that way but your not offering things that could potentially break your encounter math because having mounts above CR 5 is going to offer things that the party would not get with normal mounts and it takes a bit away from things like the find greater steed spell.

That being said if you want exotic mounts just simply re-skin some things with the higher CR health give them plate barding or make it faster with light barding... You get the idea. The biggest problem at higher level is that mounts just die from AE very easily or a stray hit.

You are probably right! Though the mm calls out taverns and griffons as mounts, so to me it feels right to give them to character, and come on, don't you want to ride a wyvern?

[SkylarkR6]

You are probably right! Though the mm calls out taverns and griffons as mounts, so to me it feels right to give them to character, and come on, don't you want to ride a wyvern?

I dunno about the wyvern but I can't see riding a battle tavern into battle will be very speedy. Might get a bit tipsy. Is this an automatic DUI?

[Rfkannen]

I dunno about the wyvern but I can't see riding a battle tavern into battle will be very speedy. Might get a bit tipsy. Is this an automatic DUI?

Autocorrect, you gotta love it.

Now I want stats for a tavern mimic, having one as an ally would be tottaly awesome!

[Blood of Gaea]

Autocorrect, you gotta love it.

Now I want stats for a tavern mimic, having one as an ally would be tottaly awesome!
You could toss one together by giving a normal mimic the ability to cast Mirage Arcane once a day, then add a few regular mimics without the spell into the encounter. Now you have a fake building filled with fake mimics pretending to be random objects (like the toilet in the outhouse, and the stools at the bar).

[JNAProductions]

The thing is, in 5E, Player Level does NOT equal CR. I've run the numbers before, and you typically end up with a CR for any given player of half to two-thirds of their level.

So by letting you get a PERMANENT monster ally of CR X/2, where X is the party level, is a HUGE boost.

I'd be inclined to say never make it greater than CR X/4, at the most.

[Blood of Gaea]

The thing is, in 5E, Player Level does NOT equal CR. I've run the numbers before, and you typically end up with a CR for any given player of half to two-thirds of their level.

So by letting you get a PERMANENT monster ally of CR X/2, where X is the party level, is a HUGE boost.

I'd be inclined to say never make it greater than CR X/4, at the most.
Paladins can get a CR2 mount at 13th level with Find Greater Steed, so I think CR X/4 is still pretty generous.

[Tetrasodium]

For what it's worth, I have a group of level 5-6 players where one is a paladin has a CR1 deinonychus with umm... splint(?) barding. for a level or so it doesn't change the balance too much but if there were a bunch of players with one, but largely because it's pretty fragile if something does look at it (which usually results in it getting killed or very nearly killed at best)

[Davrix]

You are probably right! Though the mm calls out taverns and griffons as mounts, so to me it feels right to give them to character, and come on, don't you want to ride a wyvern?

Oh I'm not saying its awesome. My paladin found a Triceratops egg and for the past 3 years (real time) and 10 levels he has been raising it and training it as a mount (oh god its cost me a fortune in gold so far). Its just reached full growth and yea a CR5 mount that has been trained well is rather deadly on the battlefield and the Dm lets me cast find steed on it to obtain the other benefits of the spell such as being able to give directions in battle. One of my favorites has been. You charge that guy while I jump off and stab the guy next to him. Its been rather fun. But yea things like this up the party power by a fair amount.

If your willing to put up with the balance issues by all means do as you wish but I was simply pointing out no matter what scaling you try to use via the math its going to greatly effect party power and game balance. If you wish to avoid such simply do as I suggested in the above post.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the mount most Paladins want, at the end of the day, is a metallic Dragon.

Used to be possible in 3.5, it seems to be much tricker in this edition. How do you balance that one? (The Dragon is essentially another party member, so it might be better for smaller parties)

[Davrix]

Well, the mount most Paladins want, at the end of the day, is a metallic Dragon.

Used to be possible in 3.5, it seems to be much tricker in this edition. How do you balance that one? (The Dragon is essentially another party member, so it might be better for smaller parties)

Eh when you get to things like True polymorph at Lv 17 its not unheard of that point to give the paladin an adult dragon as a mount for special missions or end game stuff. Everything gets a little silly around that point of play anyway. The real question would be why does the dragon deem you worthy of such a honor instead of seeing you as LUNCH

[Blood of Gaea]

Well, the mount most Paladins want, at the end of the day, is a metallic Dragon.

Used to be possible in 3.5, it seems to be much tricker in this edition. How do you balance that one? (The Dragon is essentially another party member, so it might be better for smaller parties)
I'd take a Bronze (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/bronze-dragon-wyrmling) or Silver (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/silver-dragon-wyrmling) Wyrmling, remove the 5-6 recharge on their breath weapon, and then make them large size instead of medium.

[Angelalex242]

Eh when you get to things like True polymorph at Lv 17 its not unheard of that point to give the paladin an adult dragon as a mount for special missions or end game stuff. Everything gets a little silly around that point of play anyway. The real question would be why does the dragon deem you worthy of such a honor instead of seeing you as LUNCH

It's a metallic dragon. They don't tend to eat people, not even in self defense. In general, if the dragon (I prefer gold, myself) sees you as worthy, it's because you earned it (And because the dragon is experimenting with the whole fly around and smite evil thing for what will turn out to be a very short portion of his/her thousands of years long life.)

It may even be a good percentage of metallic dragons are like, "Oh, you're doing the mount thing? Yeah, I did that about 1100 years ago. It's an interesting experience, hanging out with two leggers for a couple decades..."

Also, instead of altering wyrmlings, just use young dragons. Like this one. Size large'll do it.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/young-gold-dragon

[JackPhoenix]

Note: RAW, if you use rolling for wealth and get very lucky, you can start the game with CR 4 elephant (but absolutely no other equipment) at level 1.

[Blood of Gaea]

Also, instead of altering wyrmlings, just use young dragons. Like this one. Size large'll do it.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/young-gold-dragon
I chose Bronze/Silver Wyrmlings because they are CR 2, which works out well for Find Greater Steed, whereas a CR 10 clearly does not.

[Angelalex242]

I chose Bronze/Silver Wyrmlings because they are CR 2, which works out well for Find Greater Steed, whereas a CR 10 clearly does not.

Meh, who cares? If a Paladin is going to go dragon riding, CR goes out the window. Let the dragon be a goddamn dragon and have fun with it.

Besides, a mere spell isn't going to get anything as awesome as a dragon to be your friend for a couple decades.

...Your friend or even your lover, for that matter. Half dragons gotta come from somewhere...your character may be responsible for another one. (And that'd justify an adult dragon. You mount your dragon, then take her home at the end of the adventure and....mount your dragon!)

[Davrix]

It's a metallic dragon. They don't tend to eat people, not even in self defense.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/young-gold-dragon

I dont care how good the gold dragon is. You touch that lizards hoard and he is going to have you for dinner. At least for some, others well maybe they will just lecture you or do something else. But dont tell me all metallic dragons don't tend to eat people. Cause trust me a dragon is a dragon no matter the scales.

[Blood of Gaea]

Meh, who cares? If a Paladin is going to go dragon riding, CR goes out the window. Let the dragon be a goddamn dragon and have fun with it.

Besides, a mere spell isn't going to get anything as awesome as a dragon to be your friend for a couple decades.

...Your friend or even your lover, for that matter. Half dragons gotta come from somewhere...your character may be responsible for another one. (And that'd justify an adult dragon. You mount your dragon, then take her home at the end of the adventure and....mount your dragon!)
As a reward for assisting a dragon with something, they granted the spirit that is your Paladin's Steed the ability to take the form of a dragon, within the spirit's power.

Now you have a reasonable CR dragon for your Paladin to use and don't have to overly mess with what rewards you give to your other players to balance out a permanent CR10 follower.

Note, I'm not saying you can't just have a dragon chilling with your party that doesn't mind being used as a mount, this is just my two cents.

[Angelalex242]

As a reward for assisting a dragon with something, they granted the spirit that is your Paladin's Steed the ability to take the form of a dragon, within the spirit's power.

Now you have a reasonable CR dragon for your Paladin to use and don't have to overly mess with what rewards you give to your other players to balance out a permanent CR10 follower.

Note, I'm not saying you can't just have a dragon chilling with your party that doesn't mind being used as a mount, this is just my two cents.

The trick is, don't treat the Dragon as a follower. He/she isn't. He/she is basically another PC that the Paladin player is dual playing, with potential overrides from the DM if they try to have the Dragon do something a dragon wouldn't do.