Need Help Designing A New Cleric/Druid Cantrip: Holy Hand Grenade

[Basement Cat]

Monty Python name aside I got the idea for this elsewhere.

I've been playing the video game "Ori and the Blind Forest: Definitive Edition" a little too much recently. In it you play a genderless forest spirit named Ori who essentially has to save his world. It's a difficult game that's as addictive and immersive as it is beautiful. Seriously, the colored matte paintings used for the background are just gorgeous.

Anyway, one of the abilities Ori develops is Charge Flame which permits you to build a charge which you can release at will that explodes (centered from the floating will-o'-the-wisp like ball near Ori).

After a long night of playing the game I woke up this morning from a dream where I was using said ability like hand grenades in holding off hostile, flare burping frogs (this makes sense in context if you've played the game).

That got me thinking about such a cantrip for D&D.

Druids and Clerics have short and limited Cantrip lists compared to arcane magic using classes. Sacred Flame and Produce Flame are their sole missile weapon cantrips (in the PHB at least). As they wield weapons and can use armor and shields it's about game balance but lacking in flavor--and I'm all about fluff and flavor.

Introducing the Holy Hand Grenade Cantrip--working version.

Holy Hand Grenade:

Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

You hurl a ball of energy at a creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d4 Fire Damage and 1d4 Force Damage. The grenade has a 5 foot radius effect.

**************************

I'm not sure how to level up the damage for levels 5, 11, and 17. The range is short but it has a 5' radius so the leveling up damage can't be too great for balancing things out.

The Fire and Force damage combo is straight from the game: In the game the blast was Fire but it also knocked things away (Force energy).

Thoughts on the Holy Hand Grenade in general? How to make it work?

[Tiadoppler]

Holy Hand Grenade:

Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

You hurl a ball of energy at a creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d4 Fire Damage and 1d4 Force Damage. The grenade has a 5 foot radius effect.


My first thought was:
A ranged AoE cantrip is too much, even if it can only affect a 10'x10' area. If it did only 1d4 Fire damage, I could see it working okay with the standard (2d4, 3d4, 4d4) power progression.

My second thought was:
Well, what about Sword Burst? That's a melee AoE cantrip that does 1d6 Force to (possibly) 8 Medium targets.

So it shouldn't be as effective as Sword Burst, because Sword Burst's cost is that you have to be a spellcaster in melee range.

I'd write the cantrip this way:


Holy Hand Grenade
Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30'
Components: V, S (Verbal component: "Five!", Somatic component: a throwing motion)
Duration: Instantaneous

A white sphere arcs to a point you choose within range, then explodes with fire. Each creature in a 5-foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 1d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
This spell's damage increase by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

[Kuulvheysoon]

I want to say model it after acid splash. That’s an official, AoE cantrip already.

[Blood of Gaea]

Can't we make it a 9th level spell instead?

[Basement Cat]

I want to say model it after acid splash. That’s an official, AoE cantrip already. Good idea. Instead of effecting everyone in a 10' radius it can effect upwards of 2 people.

For damage it could be 1d3 Fire and 1d3 Force. The caster can target one opponent with both or two opponents but in the latter case cannot specify which energy effects which opponent.

For 5th level: 2d3 each, 11th level 3d3 each, and 4d3 each at 17th level.


Can't we make it a 9th level spell instead? With a count to 3 (not 5)?


My first thought was:
A ranged AoE cantrip is too much, even if it can only affect a 10'x10' area. If it did only 1d4 Fire damage, I could see it working okay with the standard (2d4, 3d4, 4d4) power progression.

My second thought was:
Well, what about Sword Burst? That's a melee AoE cantrip that does 1d6 Force to (possibly) 8 Medium targets.

So it shouldn't be as effective as Sword Burst, because Sword Burst's cost is that you have to be a spellcaster in melee range.

I'd write the cantrip this way:


Holy Hand Grenade
Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30'
Components: V, S (Verbal component: "Five!", Somatic component: a throwing motion)
Duration: Instantaneous

A white sphere arcs to a point you choose within range, then explodes with fire. Each creature in a 5-foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 1d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
This spell's damage increase by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

The Fire and Force dual effects are part of the flavor. Otherwise it's Produce Flame with an area effect.

[Blood of Gaea]

Good idea. Instead of effecting everyone in a 10' radius it can effect upwards of 2 people.

For damage it could be 1d3 Fire and 1d3 Force. The caster can target one opponent with both or two opponents but in the latter case cannot specify which energy effects which opponent.

For 5th level: 2d3 each, 11th level 3d3 each, and 4d3 each at 17th level.

With a count to 3 (not 5)?



The Fire and Force dual effects are part of the flavor. Otherwise it's Produce Flame with an area effect.
Making a split damage cantrip that deals multiple damage types makes it kind of hard to balance, it would be much easier as a 1st level spell with scaling die. And I would probably split the damage as Divine/Force myself.

Reflavoring the Ice Knife spell to deal Fire and Force damage would be easy enough.

[Easy_Lee]

Dex save for 1/2/3/4d4 radiant damage in a 5' radius. You may choose to expend a spell slot when you cast this spell. If you do, add 2d4 radiant damage per level of the spell slot.

Now that's a useful and unique cantrip.

As far as damage types go, radiant is less resisted than force but more resisted than fire. It makes more sense for a "holy" hand grenade as radiant damage is basically the same as holy fire.

[Matrix_Walker]

Seems like the Holy Hand Grenade should be an alchemical single-use item.

If you want to make it a spell, I would give it a GP cost consumed material component. If you had to craft a vessel to toss for each casting (the grenade), that would nicely balance a 1d4 fire + 1d4 force (though I might go radiant) per teir level of damage.

[Vaz]

How about Dex save or radiant damage to target?

[Angelalex242]

It should be a legendary artifact instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk

[Davrix]

Yea I'm sorry this needs to be a level 9 spell because seriously its suppose to one shot almost anything.

I mean just off the top of my head.

HOLY HAND-GRENADE Lv-9 spell
Throw and deal 20D6 damage Dex sv vs half in a 30ft radius area
Any creature in the blast with 100 HP or less that fails its save instantly dies.

Making this a cantrip = ... well LAME

I mean the idea isn't bad just use a different name. your killing the cool factor here.

[JellyPooga]

Yeah, The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch shouldn't be a cantrip; it should be a 9th level spell, if it's going to be a spell in the first place, but it should really be an Artifact.

[Basement Cat]

I'm pretty sure the title to the thread reads "Cantrip", folks. :smallwink:

I'm talking about a rinky-dinky cantrip. This isn't about creating the Legendary Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. You've given me grins, though. Thanks for that! :smallbiggrin:

On Topic:

Using Radiant energy instead of Fire was my first inclination, too. What about the separate energies randomly targeting anyone in within the radius?

[Vaz]

Having fully read the OP, I can confirm that one of my first projects after seeing Ori and the Blind Forest was to set up a reactive lighting surround for the wall mounted TV. Waited until nightime, brought the lass round, put up the sofa bed downstairs, duvet and all, and just inhaled the music and colours, and the story. It is an absolute masterpiece as we played through it together. It is a little piece of actual magic.

I'm wondering why you can't ust treat Sacred Flame as the spell? Sure, it's not AoE, but neither is Acid Splash really. Hitting a potential 9 creatures even with a 5ft radious is rather large so the damage should be little.

Sacred Flame meanwhile seems seriously fitting.

[Angelalex242]

Wait a minute. There technically already is a holy hand grenade artifact.

The Talisman of Pure Good works 7 times instead of once, but...

[bid]

A target takes 1d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Cantrips should never do half damage on save.

[Tiadoppler]

Cantrips should never do half damage on save.

Yeah you're right. I copied a version of another spell I had in a text document and forgot to change it.

[Vogie]

I want to say model it after acid splash. That’s an official, AoE cantrip already.

Or a Ranged version of Booming Blade. Think Magic Stone, but with the Booming blade effect, and you can only choose one or two, instead of three pebbles.

[Nullstellensatz]

Any creature in the blast with 100 HP or less that fails its save instantly dies.

Wouldn't that make it a multiple target Power Word Kill, with a save DC?

[danpit2991]

level 9 or artifact and it should be more than one action

And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once at the number three, being the third number be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I think you noticed the design flaw by now. You want to design this spell after an ability from a minor game you really like, but you named it really obviously after a completely different object from a huge cultural phenomenon, so people expect it to be like the object you named it after, not the unrelated ability from a different piece of media you're thinking of. That's not just a this board thing, that's going to happen in pretty much any group you introduce this in. The best advice I can give is therefore: ditch the name.