Balancing a multi-side battle encounter

[Tiadoppler]

My PCs have run headlong into a fair-sized ongoing skirmish between two hostile groups, and I'm looking for some advice on how to provide a Deadly challenge even when many of the combatants are fighting amongst themselves.

Group 1 consists of 5 Drow and 3 (enslaved/reprogrammed/brainwashed) Warforged who have been tasked to kill two specific PCs at all costs. Their leader may believe that she owes something to one of the PCs over a past debt. The Drow intend to dispose of the filthy Orcs quickly so that they cannot interfere with the mission. The warforged could potentially be convinced to rebel against the Drow.

Group 2 consists of 8 Orcs who are trying to secure an ancient tome that was recently claimed by one of the PCs. They might leave if the players hand over the book (unlikely) or demonstrate that it is useless. They want to capture one of the Drow for interrogation: what are they doing above-ground?


The PCs are all level 5 with full HP/resources. Paladin/Lore Bard, Champion Fighter, Abjurer Wizard, Kensei Monk, Fiend Warlock, Zealot Barbarian. Accompanied by a full, slow wagon which contains valuable cargo and cannot move off-road with any significant speed. They are currently 200' away from the treeline where their foes await, but are on an open rocky plain (lots of difficult terrain, some decent boulders for cover). The road they're on comes down from a steep mountain pass and goes straight down towards the trees (turning around would be very slow, and unlikely to allow them to escape).


My issue is as follows: I'd like this encounter to use a full adventuring day's worth of resources. It's a setpiece battle with a large map and different terrain areas (road, boulders, trees, elevation change, a water feature and a sand trap), and it's meant to give various options for tactics and strategy (the PCs will start out 30 squares from the trees, and have different ways to approach the enemy, or wait for them to approach). I'd also like it to be a very difficult encounter (for 6, lvl 5 PCs), even though some of the enemies will start out wounded and in combat with each other.

What CR ranges would you suggest? Are there any traps I should avoid in creating this encounter? Has anyone else had experience (good or bad) doing this sort of battle?



Team Drow:
> Drow Assassin (Recurring NPC): Crossbow, Daggers, Likes poison, some support spellcasting
> 2 x Drow Duelist: Dual-wielding melee damage specialists
> 2 x Drow Soldier: Sword and board tanks
> Warforged Slave Fighter: 2H Axe and extremely heavy armor, some evocation spellcasting
> 2 x Warforged Slave: Automatic hand crossbows

Team Orc:
> 2 x Orcish Brute: 2H Clubs and massive HP, thrown rocks
> 2 x Orcish Fighter: Waraxe, handaxes
> 2 x Orcish Piker: Reach polearms
> 2 x Orcish Spear-fighters: Spear and shield, javelins

[Armored Walrus]

Not necessarily a thing to avoid, but something to be aware of. If you put too many different pieces on the field that aren't the PCs, they are going to spend most of the fight watching you play with the tokens. You're going to want to think of how you're going to handwave stuff that doesn't directly involve the players, rather than actually playing out the turns and rolling dice. One of the published adventure paths has a three-sided fight on a ship and they made up some rules for that there, not sure how well they work, but someone here might be able to comment.

Beyond that, I'd just make sure each faction has at least a deadly encounter's worth of enemies in it, and then you can turn the dial up and down based on how well the PCs are faring - having groups of enemies fight each other if the PCs are having a harder time than you planned, or having them turn on the PCs if it's getting too easy. I wouldn't worry too much about getting the math right.

Edit: I did something like this in my campaign - there were human renegades, human city guards, steam mephits, and unexpected kobold allies. In retrospect, it probably would have worked better to make them discrete waves of encounters, rather than making it one large battle on one big map. But I did pull it off. Probably would have pulled it off better if I had just had a better focus on keeping the bubble of details around the PCs and only using narrative to manage the rest of the map, rather than mechanics.

[Tiadoppler]

Not necessarily a thing to avoid, but something to be aware of. If you put too many different pieces on the field that aren't the PCs, they are going to spend most of the fight watching you play with the tokens. You're going to want to think of how you're going to handwave stuff that doesn't directly involve the players, rather than actually playing out the turns and rolling dice. One of the published adventure paths has a three-sided fight on a ship and they made up some rules for that there, not sure how well they work, but someone here might be able to comment.

Beyond that, I'd just make sure each faction has at least a deadly encounter's worth of enemies in it, and then you can turn the dial up and down based on how well the PCs are faring - having groups of enemies fight each other if the PCs are having a harder time than you planned, or having them turn on the PCs if it's getting too easy. I wouldn't worry too much about getting the math right.

Edit: I did something like this in my campaign - there were human renegades, human city guards, steam mephits, and unexpected kobold allies. In retrospect, it probably would have worked better to make them discrete waves of encounters, rather than making it one large battle on one big map. But I did pull it off. Probably would have pulled it off better if I had just had a better focus on keeping the bubble of details around the PCs and only using narrative to manage the rest of the map, rather than mechanics.


Yeah, I'm planning on running 2 rounds of combat before the session, just between the two NPC groups. The PCs will show up and both groups will be somewhat wounded, but luckily both NPC groups hate the PCs way more than they hate each other. They won't cooperate with each other at all, but they will be focused on the PCs and their own goals.

I definitely don't want complicated enemies when there are so many pieces on the board. I'm pretty heavily focused on brute force monsters with a melee and a ranged attack, with only two "caster/special ability" enemies.

Do you think that a total budget of Deadly x 2 is reasonable? I'm tempted to go to total = Deadly x 3 and then have them go all-out at each other for two rounds whittling each other down.

[Xetheral]

For an encounter so sprawling and fluid, the difficulty of the encounter will likely depend greatly on the PCs actions. The encounter-building system isn't really designed for such cases, so I doubt it will give you good results. I suggest just eyeballing it, and making sure the PCs have viable ways to retreat.

[Unoriginal]

How many encounters will the PCs have to deal with, before that?

[bc56]

If both groups hate the PCs more than each other, they would switch their attack to the PCs as soon as they arrive. I wouldn't put more than a deadly encounter worth or challenge

As a side note, do the PCs have Fireball? It would alter the difficulty of the encounter significantly.

Also, if you're using the tables in the DMG, note that standard monsters in the MM always have significantly less health.

[Tiadoppler]

How many encounters will the PCs have to deal with, before that?

None. The last session ended with a difficult series of non-combat encounters, followed by a long rest. Then the party started heading down the road. The game is currently "paused" with the party roughly 200' from the enemies in the trees. The party had just received some good information on the enemy forces from successful Perception checks, and had decided to advance. Tonight's session will begin with initiative rolls.



If both groups hate the PCs more than each other, they would switch their attack to the PCs as soon as they arrive. I wouldn't put more than a deadly encounter worth or challenge

As a side note, do the PCs have Fireball? It would alter the difficulty of the encounter significantly.

Also, if you're using the tables in the DMG, note that standard monsters in the MM always have significantly less health.


Yeah, the main focus of both enemy forces will switch to the PCs when they show up. However, they will still take opportunity attacks on each other, and try to include all hostile forces in AoEs. They are also starting below max HP, so I recalculated CR based on current HP rather than max HP.

Yes, the PCs have fireball and burning hands, and this will be their first "five minute adventuring day" in quite some time. I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with full novas. :smallamused:

I gave these enemies -20ish HP and +2AC compared to the DMG tables for their CR (some of them are Offense focused, some are Defense focused, so the Defense CR varies quite a bit). Most of the enemies are in the CR .75 to CR 1.5 range, with a single CR 3, and a CR 2.25ish, or they were before they started fighting amongst themselves. The players have a significant advantage in terms of mobility, ranged weaponry and AoEs.

[Unoriginal]

None. The last session ended with a difficult series of non-combat encounters, followed by a long rest. Then the party started heading down the road. The game is currently "paused" with the party roughly 200' from the enemies in the trees. The party had just received some good information on the enemy forces from successful Perception checks, and had decided to advance. Tonight's session will begin with initiative rolls.





Yeah, the main focus of both enemy forces will switch to the PCs when they show up. However, they will still take opportunity attacks on each other, and try to include all hostile forces in AoEs. They are also starting below max HP, so I recalculated CR based on current HP rather than max HP.

Yes, the PCs have fireball and burning hands, and this will be their first "five minute adventuring day" in quite some time. I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with full novas. :smallamused:

I gave these enemies -20ish HP and +2AC compared to the DMG tables for their CR (some of them are Offense focused, some are Defense focused, so the Defense CR varies quite a bit). Most of the enemies are in the CR .75 to CR 1.5 range, with a single CR 3, and a CR 2.25ish, or they were before they started fighting amongst themselves. The players have a significant advantage in terms of mobility, ranged weaponry and AoEs.

Well if it's the only encounter in the day and they're lvl 5, the PCs should be able to handle Deadly*2 or even Deadly*3.

Now, two groups of half a dozen low CR opponent that will hurt each other before the fight aren't going to be much of a challenge still, especially with the ranged weaponry and AoEs. If they all worked together, it'd be different, but as its stand everyone is going to fight everyone (even if one side kill the PCs, they'll have to deal with the other side to claim what they want).

I'd advise you to add a couple of goons with ranged options on both side.

[Tiadoppler]

Well if it's the only encounter in the day and they're lvl 5, the PCs should be able to handle Deadly*2 or even Deadly*3.

Now, two groups of half a dozen low CR opponent that will hurt each other before the fight aren't going to be much of a challenge still, especially with the ranged weaponry and AoEs. If they all worked together, it'd be different, but as its stand everyone is going to fight everyone (even if one side kill the PCs, they'll have to deal with the other side to claim what they want).

I'd advise you to add a couple of goons with ranged options on both side.

I've got a few ranged attackers on both sides, and the battle mat is big for this encounter. I'm using 28'x42' for the whole map. Even a fireball isn't going to hit more than 3-4 enemies unless they clump up by mistake.

There's a decent caster on the Drow side who has some nasty tricks, and a pair of extremely fast+tough melee brutes who may be able to get among the PCs surprisingly quickly.

Each "side" of the map has a different terrain feature to help characters close the distance to the trees without being targeted by range: The North side has a river in a shallow ravine. If a character swims/walks along the shore (difficult terrain), they can't be seen from the trees. The South side has many fallen boulders along a cliff as cover, which is faster but may be open to readied actions as they move from cover to cover. The center of the map has the main road, which is smooth and open.

The Drow would prefer to take cover in the trees and wait for the PCs to come to them. The Orcs would like to rush forward and get their melee guys in among the PCs.

[Cespenar]

This looks like it's going to be a pretty fun and memorable encounter. A couple of points:

1) Don't strategize the enemies too long. It's already going to be a long battle, so just make a battle plan beforehand and stick to it. Consider "grouping actions", so to speak. Like, "these four melee guys just charge and attack", "these three archers move to cover and shoot", instead of "this guy... dashes to engage the wizard and end his turn, while this guy moves and tries to grapple you..."

2) I'd generally advise against opponents with high burst damages, in order for the players to better enjoy the chaos of the fight.

3) Obvious, but don't focus fire on the PCs if an easier target is right in front of them.

4) I second the overall difficulty rating suggestions up to even Deadly x2, since there will be a lot of beneficial factors for them.

[Armored Walrus]

I think OP already ran the encounter last night. Hey OP, how'd it go?

[Tiadoppler]

I think OP already ran the encounter last night. Hey OP, how'd it go?

It went quite well, with a few problems.


T: Trees
R: River
C: Cliff
=: Path
Players started on right side, enemies on left side in the trees


TTRRRRRRRR
TT
=========
TT
TTCCCCCCC


First, I had my players control various members of the Orcs and Drow when they were attacking each other. This way, the players rolled more dice and made more decisions about moving forces around. I only controlled the forces that were directly attacking/moving around the party. Score: B-. It's not as fun as playing your own character, but they had asked for a large-scale battle to break up a recent string of 1-2 enemy "boss" battles.

Second, the players spoke (in Common) to the Drow they recognized almost immediately (with a DC 25 perception check, they recognized her from 150' away). They tried to negotiate with the Orcs as well, but most of them didn't speak Common, and none of the PCs spoke one of the local Orcish languages. The Drow leader said she'd leave in exchange for the 2 PCs she was sent to kill, but she only knew that both PCs had specific types of backgrounds and origins. The PCs couldn't understand what she wanted at first, then refused violently. Score: B+. There was talky stuff, and opportunity for parley and peaceful resolution, it's just that nobody took those opportunities.

Third, the delay caused by negotiations allowed the two enemy forces to get their heavy melee troops quite close to the PCs before battle. The melee PCs had walked openly down the center of the path, attempting to demonstrate their intent to negotiate and desire for a peaceful resolution. While they shouted to the Drow hiding in the trees, the Orcs sent their fast-movers up the river bed towards the PCs wagon, and the Warforged Slaves were ordered to walk towards the PCs openly, with their crossbows Readied. Score: A- in my opinion. The two factions took advantage of the lull in fighting to pursue their own independent goals. The PCs realized quite quickly that the Drow were going to go hostile, but the Paladin ordered everybody not to provoke the Orcs, hoping that they would be friendly. This was overly optimistic.

The PCs mid-battle tactics were disorganized.
> The Orcish Brutes reached the party's wagon/non-combatants and were engaged in melee combat by... the ranged Warlock, by himself. This was suboptimal.
> The heavy melee PCs held the center of the map but stayed in close fireball formation and didn't maneuver. They engaged and defeated many of the Drow fighters, but were hit by several AoEs in close succession (from the Drow leader and the Warforged Fighter).
> The (Longbow) Kensei Monk climbed the cliff and did a good job damaging targets from up above, but abandoned the Warlock and Wizard to deal with a significant melee threat. She came back down eventually.
> The Paladin (after my suggestion that she use some of her healing abilities) decided to save her spells and healing for after the battle(??!@??).
> The (fire-resistant, but severely wounded) Paladin was surrounded by 5 of the Orcs, and asked the Warlock to target a Fireball on her position. None of the 6 targets saved. The Paladin dropped to 0, and all 5 Orcs took well above average damage but stayed conscious.
> The Wizard's spells prepared spells were focused on anti-spellcaster and general support. He had no AoEs to use. Luckily, Magic Missile's okay against low HP opponents.
Ummmm. Score: F. F-? Okay, to be fair, they did some cool stuff and didn't die, so a solid C?



This battle was less fun for me and my players than I had hoped. The players got to control some of the enemies fighting each other, which went over well, but it was still slow to get through initiative order. A lot of the tactical confusion could be traced back to: it was hard to remember what each character was doing on any particular turn. There were 6 PCs(and several non-combatant PC allies, who just ran away), 8 Orcs and 8 Drow/Warforged. That's 22 combatants. The enemy forces used a total of 8 very different stat blocks, which was inconvenient, even if all 8 were on one piece of paper.


If I had to do this over again, I'd

A) Focus on fewer but more powerful enemies. 2-4 very tough but identical Orcs versus Drow leader, Warforged slave fighter, 2 Drow mooks. 4 stat blocks to keep track of and only 8 enemy npcs total. That halves my workload in two ways and would have sped up the game considerably.

B) Ask for a tactical discussion from the PCs before initiative, so they could plan out what they intended to do in different situations.

[Armored Walrus]

This battle was less fun for me and my players than I had hoped. The players got to control some of the enemies fighting each other, which went over well, but it was still slow to get through initiative order. A lot of the tactical confusion could be traced back to: it was hard to remember what each character was doing on any particular turn. There were 6 PCs(and several non-combatant PC allies, who just ran away), 8 Orcs and 8 Drow/Warforged. That's 22 combatants. The enemy forces used a total of 8 very different stat blocks, which was inconvenient, even if all 8 were on one piece of paper.

Yep, it's really too big of a fight for D&D's mechanics to handle well. That was my experience as well when I tried it. It bogs down a lot once the DM has to keep track of more than about 3 different enemy types. (of course that will vary from DM to DM)

A third option to consider next time you feel like you need, or the narrative calls for, a big battle, is to break it up into a handful of encounters and run them sequentially. This is where a lot of folks that actually manage to pull off the 6-8 encounters a day average get it from. It's still a large battle, you're just "zooming in" on the action that directly involves the PCs and the rest of it is happening "off-camera." When they've fought encounter 1 for a few rounds, or have defeated it, you launch encounter 2, and so on. Or there's a short period of moving around and a quick change of maps in between, etc. I mean, really, in a large-scale battle,if someone's 600 feet away when it starts, you aren't fighting them at the same time as you're fighting the folks in front of you.

[Tiadoppler]

Yep, it's really too big of a fight for D&D's mechanics to handle well. That was my experience as well when I tried it. It bogs down a lot once the DM has to keep track of more than about 3 different enemy types. (of course that will vary from DM to DM)

A third option to consider next time you feel like you need, or the narrative calls for, a big battle, is to break it up into a handful of encounters and run them sequentially. This is where a lot of folks that actually manage to pull off the 6-8 encounters a day average get it from. It's still a large battle, you're just "zooming in" on the action that directly involves the PCs and the rest of it is happening "off-camera." When they've fought encounter 1 for a few rounds, or have defeated it, you launch encounter 2, and so on. Or there's a short period of moving around and a quick change of maps in between, etc. I mean, really, in a large-scale battle,if someone's 600 feet away when it starts, you aren't fighting them at the same time as you're fighting the folks in front of you.

I've run bigger battles before, but when I did that:
The bulk of the enemies were identical mooks, all with the same stats, who could generally only stand 1-2 hits.
There were only 1-3 special individual enemies with better stats.
The players were more experienced.

The multi-side battle is new to me, and it was not worth the trouble in my opinion. Sequential encounters are fun, especially if you've got a known map set up, and players can position themselves (around the edge of a fort, for example) between encounters.


Well, it was a good session, because everybody learned something. There was fun to be had, the players got a challenge, the DM got a headache, and everyone went home happy, except for the DM's headache.

I had an email conversation with my players today. The takeaways were:
> Future encounters will most likely vary between 1 single boss enemy, and 1-2 main enemies + at most 6 identical mooks. Usually 3-4 stat blocks at most.
> Players will try to focus more during other people's turns so that they aren't caught off-guard when their turn comes up. We had several individual players' turns last several minutes each(non-spellcaster at level 5! You attack, and you move. Come on!).
> The Paladin promises to remember to heal people.
> The party as a whole agrees that having an actual strategy would have been a good idea. Staying out of burst formation will be a part of that.

[Invalidmix]

Tbh I am trying something similar to this but smaller scale with multiple hard fights, but rather than have a lot of time where people do nothing, stagger the fight, as I would of done with yours have one group encounter the party first and engage in combat, as that group is dwindled down to 1 or 2 enemies have the next arrive and add them to the battle. this would prevent long initiative orders and allow for a longer battle that will push resources further, the one i intend to do myself, will be a 4-5 rounds or the first set of foes drops below a hp threshold, then the other turns up thus making it easy to finish the first set and then take on the new bigger threat, forcing them to fight hard and burn everything.