How many of you use the Sage Advice for Careful Spell?

[TheUser]

Saw it posted on a different forum and thought I'd get a feel for how prominant Jeremy Crawford's sage advice on careful spell is:

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/840017588746768384?lang=en

If you don't how do you rule on it and how do your players feel about it?

I personally think a lot of sorcerer players struggle enough as it is without having to worry about looking up sage advice. It removes fun and cool interactions to rule this way so I opt for as much compatibility as possible.

[LeonBH]

I go by the RAW on this and not the RAI. Because the RAI is lame, and the RAW makes Careful Spell very versatile and compatible with more spells.

Also, technically the RAW is what is used in AL (though I don't play it), because Jeremy Crawford's tweets are optional considerations in AL. So it's the more "official" ruling.

[Ellisthion]

Yeah this is another one of those Sage Advices that are just a little bit stupid.

It's bad enough that the RAW is already worse than the Evocation Wizard's Scult Spells feature, it doesn't need nerfing / confusing.

[rbstr]

I've never read it another way. Raw says "A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell." A singular saving throw, not multiple. And the creature has to be subject to the throw when you cast it or it can't be chosen to auto-succeed. Those conditions limit its usage to the sage advice ruling to begin with.
Reading it to apply persistently requires missreading half the rule.

Plus reading this against sage advice also means that you've gotta screw with a lot of stuff that clearly isn't intended to last multiple rounds multiple rounds like Draconic and Celestial's damage-adding features "When you cast a spell".

[strangebloke]

I've never read it another way. Raw says "A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell." A singular saving throw, not multiple. And the creature has to be subject to the throw when you cast it or it can't be chosen to auto-succeed. Those conditions limit its usage to the sage advice ruling to begin with.
Reading it to apply persistently requires missreading half the rule.

Plus reading this against sage advice also means that you've gotta screw with a lot of stuff that clearly isn't intended to last multiple rounds multiple rounds like Draconic and Celestial's damage-adding features "When you cast a spell".

Same here.

Heighten spell doesn't cover multiple rounds of saves, or saves of multiple creatures.

Really the difference is pretty minute. The permissive reading allows for careful to work with web and stinking cloud, but the less permissive reading still works with fireball and hypnotic pattern.

[AHF]

Same here.

Heighten spell doesn't cover multiple rounds of saves, or saves of multiple creatures.

Really the difference is pretty minute. The permissive reading allows for careful to work with web and stinking cloud, but the less permissive reading still works with fireball and hypnotic pattern.

A lot of gish types take it exactly for the multiround spells so for those builds the difference is big.

[TheUser]

Same here.

Heighten spell doesn't cover multiple rounds of saves, or saves of multiple creatures.

Really the difference is pretty minute. The permissive reading allows for careful to work with web and stinking cloud, but the less permissive reading still works with fireball and hypnotic pattern.

The difference is over half of the non-damaging spells on the sorcerer list; it is far from minute.

The less permissive reading cuts
web, stinking cloud, sickening radiance, sleet storm and earthquake from even getting one automatic save. So apart from AoE damage spells you're left with a whopping 4 disabling spells that get the full effect from the metamagic (hypnotic pattern, fear confusion and reverse gravity). Everything else still gives half damage.

[Blood of Gaea]

I honestly didn't know there was a way to interpret it other than what Sage Advice says, and I've never seen that Tweet before.

[MaxWilson]

I honestly didn't know there was a way to interpret it other than what Sage Advice says, and I've never seen that Tweet before.

Really, you were already not allowing Careful Spell on Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill, just like Sage Advice, because the saving throw happens on a different turn?

[Jerrykhor]

Honestly, its better to just ignore Sage Advice when it comes to Metamagic. Most of them are incredibly lame, especially JC's ruling on Twinned. Have you forgot he ruled that you can't Twin Dragon's Breath?

[Blood of Gaea]

Really, you were already not allowing Careful Spell on Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill, just like Sage Advice, because the saving throw happens on a different turn?
It calls for allowing that to make their saving throw not throws, so it seemed to me to be referring to that initial save a lot of spells have on casting, but it just wouldn't apply to the spells that don't.

[Jerrykhor]

I honestly didn't know there was a way to interpret it other than what Sage Advice says, and I've never seen that Tweet before.

How about the part where it says '...protect some of those creatures from the spells full force?'

[Blood of Gaea]

How about the part where it says '...protect some of those creatures from the spells full force?'
Most of the spells that allow an immediate initial keep the spell from impacting you, so long as you don't stick around in any lingering AoEs.

EDIT: Note, I'm not advocating that it's broken, nor that you shouldn't allow it in your game. That's just what I got from my initial reading of the ability.

[MaxWilson]

It calls for allowing that to make their saving throw not throws, so it seemed to me to be referring to that initial save a lot of spells have on casting, but it just wouldn't apply to the spells that don't.

Just to be clear: you were already not allowing Careful Stinking Cloud/Careful Cloudkill? Not even for the initial saving throw?

[Blood of Gaea]

Just to be clear: you were already not allowing Careful Stinking Cloud/Careful Cloudkill? Not even for the initial saving throw?
Correct. Though if one of my players was invested in the idea of using the combo and asked me about it, I'd definitely allow it apply to the first saving through of a spell in general. Considering other metamagic choices include Twinned, Quickened, and Subtle, I don't think it would break anything.

[TheUser]

Correct. Though if one of my players was invested in the idea of using the combo and asked me about it, I'd definitely allow it apply to the first saving through of a spell in general. Considering other metamagic choices include Twinned, Quickened, and Subtle, I don't think it would break anything.

A sorcerer player that picks a metamagic and a spell is invested lol
They can't un-pick that metamagic and they need to wait until a level up to cast that spell

[Davrix]

I really dont see why this is confusing


When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.

This is really simple and I'm confused by how people are taking this any other way. How are they reading this because it basically says when you cast a spell, choose up to a # of creatures affected by said spell and they make their save automatically. And thus you still follow the spells rules for when a creature makes its save. What are people doing otherwise?

[Matrix_Walker]

I was under the impression that JC Tweets were considered RAW.

[LeonBH]

I was under the impression that JC Tweets were considered RAW.

No, they are official tweets and are the official RAI, but they aren't RAW. His tweets are optional considerations in AL, where houserules are disallowed.

[Davrix]

No, they are official tweets and are the official RAI, but they aren't RAW. His tweets are optional considerations in AL, where houserules are disallowed.

I think people mistake Sage advice as the rule of god which its not. Which is why they are RAI. He was one of the creators of the game and this is how he see's the rules working. Also lets note the ADVICE portion of the posts. This is merely his suggestion not an errata or set in stone. If you wish to make a different ruling or see it differently by all means. Rule as you wish but I just don't understand people who bash poor Jeremy when they don't agree with his advice on a ruling.

[Chugger]

I think people mistake Sage advice as the rule of god which its not. Which is why they are RAI. He was one of the creators of the game and this is how he see's the rules working. Also lets note the ADVICE portion of the posts. This is merely his suggestion not an errata or set in stone. If you wish to make a different ruling or see it differently by all means. Rule as you wish but I just don't understand people who bash poor Jeremy when they don't agree with his advice on a ruling.

Because what he says is too often accepted as "the word of Gawd", and when he screws up, he messes up a whole bunch of players' play-style. It's not that we just "don't agree" with him - his word has considerable impact. And sometimes he seems pretty arbitrary, frankly. There are ripple effects here.

[Glorthindel]

I think people mistake Sage advice as the rule of god which its not. Which is why they are RAI. He was one of the creators of the game and this is how he see's the rules working. Also lets note the ADVICE portion of the posts. This is merely his suggestion not an errata or set in stone. If you wish to make a different ruling or see it differently by all means. Rule as you wish but I just don't understand people who bash poor Jeremy when they don't agree with his advice on a ruling.

Nah, its just players who interpret Sage Advice as rule of god when the ruling benefits players, and optional the second it doesn't.

[strangebloke]

The difference is over half of the non-damaging spells on the sorcerer list; it is far from minute.

The less permissive reading cuts
web, stinking cloud, sickening radiance, sleet storm and earthquake from even getting one automatic save. So apart from AoE damage spells you're left with a whopping 4 disabling spells that get the full effect from the metamagic (hypnotic pattern, fear confusion and reverse gravity). Everything else still gives half damage.
No, I suppose minute is the wrong word. The half damage spells are still useful though, particularly if you have a rogue or monk in the party.

And you're discounting things like Web, which still works with careful spell. You just can't stay in the area after he casts it.

Overall, I don't have a problem with it being used either way. I've never seen anyone pick careful spell in any case since it's so much less shiny than the others. Empower is probably the most common pick.

Honestly, its better to just ignore Sage Advice when it comes to Metamagic. Most of them are incredibly lame, especially JC's ruling on Twinned. Have you forgot he ruled that you can't Twin Dragon's Breath?
Oh yeah, that one was dumb.

[Dr. Cliché]

Regarding RAW, it's noteworthy that Heightened spell specifies 'first saving throw made against the spell', whilst Careful Spell simply says 'saving throw against the spell'.

Now, granted, it says saving throw (singular), but I think more consistent language would have helped a great deal.


However, I also think there's a fluff aspect in terms of what this metamagic is supposed to be doing. Is it creating safe pockets within the spell, in a similar manner to Sculpt Spell? Or is it conferring some manner of protection to the designated creatures?

If the former, which is heavily implied by the name, it's likely that the pockets are temporary (since there is no way for enemies to benefit from them), and hence you'd expect them to only protect against the initial effect - not subsequent ones.

[Davrix]

Because what he says is too often accepted as "the word of Gawd", and when he screws up, he messes up a whole bunch of players' play-style. It's not that we just "don't agree" with him - his word has considerable impact. And sometimes he seems pretty arbitrary, frankly. There are ripple effects here.

Im sorry then that's on the players not JC. The man is human and can and will make mistakes. Its called sage advice not sage official ruling by the overlord of DND. His rulings don't "mess up" players style. They can either take his "Advice" or continue to play as they have, which if your not in AL is perfectly fine if your table hasen't had an issue with how you have been doing things. And if it does affect you in AL? Well I'm sorry that's what you signed up for. Its an official league run game with rules and guidelines. If that's not the play-style you want go to a home table game if it bothers you so much.

[Blood of Gaea]

Overall, I don't have a problem with it being used either way. I've never seen anyone pick careful spell in any case since it's so much less shiny than the others. Empower is probably the most common pick.
Interesting, it's almost always Twinned, Quicken, and Subtle at my table.

[samcifer]

Saw it posted on a different forum and thought I'd get a feel for how prominant Jeremy Crawford's sage advice on careful spell is:

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/840017588746768384?lang=en

If you don't how do you rule on it and how do your players feel about it?

I personally think a lot of sorcerer players struggle enough as it is without having to worry about looking up sage advice. It removes fun and cool interactions to rule this way so I opt for as much compatibility as possible.

I can't access twitter at work. What does he say about it?

[Blood of Gaea]

I can't access twitter at work. What does he say about it?
https://i.imgur.com/4EyTmMW.jpg

[samcifer]

https://i.imgur.com/4EyTmMW.jpg

Image blocked. That's what I get working for the place I do. :/

[strangebloke]

Image blocked. That's what I get working for the place I do. :/

Q:"ask whether careful spell can be used with cloudkill"
JC:"Careful spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to work on saving throws made that turn."
"So careful fireball should mean your protected targets take half damage?"
JC:"That's correct."
"This has got to be the worst RAI ruling I have ever seen. Careful spell is now only compatible with 5 sorcerer spells that don't do damage."
JC: "Careful spell still works with fireball, lightning bolt, and many other spells."
"Indeed, it's just only half as effective lol."

Paraphrasing toward the end there.

Good grief people give JC a lot of abuse.

[samcifer]

Q:"ask whether careful spell can be used with cloudkill"
JC:"Careful spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to work on saving throws made that turn."
"So careful fireball should mean your protected targets take half damage?"
JC:"That's correct."
"This has got to be the worst RAI ruling I have ever seen. Careful spell is now only compatible with 5 sorcerer spells that don't do damage."
JC: "Careful spell still works with fireball, lightning bolt, and many other spells."
"Indeed, it's just only half as effective lol."

Paraphrasing toward the end there.

Good grief people give JC a lot of abuse.

Yeah, that's dumb. It literally the least useful mm of all that way. It needs to at least offer a 'no damage to allies' effect if they ever want anyone to use it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Good grief people give JC a lot of abuse.

He deserves criticism when he restates ambiguities with different words, refuses to clarify general cases, contradicts himself, or just gets high. Sometimes he's more like:

Q: Can Careful Spell be used with Cloudkill?

A: Yes, Careful Spell can be used with Cloudkill.

Q: OK, but I mean how do you use Careful Spell with Cloudkill?

A: You use Careful Spell normally with Cloudkill.

Q: That doesn't tell me anything, what happens when you use Careful Spell with Cloudkill?

A: Using Careful Spell with Cloudkill means a chosen creature succeeds on its saving throw against Cloudkill, just as it says.

Q: ARF GNARBAL GNORK GNORG

A: Thank you for consulting Sage Advice.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, that's dumb. It literally the least useful mm of all that way. It needs to at least offer a 'no damage to allies' effect if they ever want anyone to use it.

TBH it's still great with hypnotic pattern and a few other spells, and using it with a damaging spell is great if you're in a party that has resistance or evasion via some means.


He deserves criticism when he restates ambiguities with different words, refuses to clarify general cases, contradicts himself, or just gets high. Sometimes he's more like:


Haven't seen much of it, so I can't say. However, 'worst RAI ruling I have ever seen' is total hyperbole. First of all, that is RAW and secondly, I've seen way, way worse RAI rulings.

[TheUser]

Haven't seen much of it, so I can't say. However, 'worst RAI ruling I have ever seen' is total hyperbole. First of all, that is RAW and secondly, I've seen way, way worse RAI rulings.
Definitely not the worst no, but I don't think it's a RAW ruling. This came up in the other thread I pulled this question from; every other Metamagic uses the expression "when you cast a spell" but some have permanent effects which span the length of the spell (think Twinned and Distant Spell) without expressly stating they last the entire length of the spell (meaning the permanence of the effect is inferred). Where as there are other effects which only last the same turn the spell is cast are explicitly stated. A good example of them being precise about this is in the Arcane Trickster's Magical Ambush; it explicitly states the effects only occur the turn it is cast (while still using the expression "when you cast a spell..."). Likewise, if it only affects the first save it would state as such (like with heighten spell). The final clincher to this is that Jeremy uses the words "intended" which means by his own admission this is not a RAW interpretation of what is written in the PHB.

[strangebloke]

snip
Perhaps not RAW, but it makes the implication pretty heavily.

Careful says 'When you cast a spell' each of your selected persons succeed on 'their saving throw' against the spell. I don't know how you can read that to say 'All saving throws against that spell.' I will cede that the 'on the turn it is cast' is perhaps a little unclear, but... eh.

Distant, extended, and twin, by contrast, all speak about altering a quality of the spell itself, whether the range, duration, or number of targets.

Love your sorc guide, btw.

[TheUser]

Perhaps not RAW, but it makes the implication pretty heavily.

Careful says 'When you cast a spell' each of your selected persons succeed on 'their saving throw' against the spell. I don't know how you can read that to say 'All saving throws against that spell.' I will cede that the 'on the turn it is cast' is perhaps a little unclear, but... eh.

Distant, extended, and twin, by contrast, all speak about altering a quality of the spell itself, whether the range, duration, or number of targets.

Love your sorc guide, btw.

Thanks! It has a few Xanathar's updates recently but nothing too drastic.

It still uses the word "save" instead of "saves" but spells and their duration all function off of rounds, not turns. So I think technically it should still be the first save in the round (essentially until the start of the user's next turn). It means it would have a use with those spells but not be horrendous with long lasting ones. It also holds to the notion that turns are occurring "simultaneously" from a temporal perspective.

EDIT: as an aside the Invoker's version handles multiple saves across multiple rounds but exclusively with evocation spells (DAWN AND SICKENING RADIANCE WOOO)

EDIT 2: It also says for twinned and distant that it makes those metamagic alterations "when you cast" the spell, which means the alterations would only last that turn if you applied the same verbiage. If you accept JC's Careful spell as RAW it means you think Twinned and Distant should only have effects which last that turn.

[Jerrykhor]

He deserves criticism when he restates ambiguities with different words, refuses to clarify general cases, contradicts himself, or just gets high. Sometimes he's more like:

Q: Can Careful Spell be used with Cloudkill?

A: Yes, Careful Spell can be used with Cloudkill.

Q: OK, but I mean how do you use Careful Spell with Cloudkill?

A: You use Careful Spell normally with Cloudkill.

Q: That doesn't tell me anything, what happens when you use Careful Spell with Cloudkill?

A: Using Careful Spell with Cloudkill means a chosen creature succeeds on its saving throw against Cloudkill, just as it says.

Q: ARF GNARBAL GNORK GNORG

A: Thank you for consulting Sage Advice.
The truth, and nothing but the truth.