On the Shoulders of Giants: Moradin, a God of the Giant Pantheon? [Crazy Idea]

[Unoriginal]

Reading and watching some stuff about 5e's lore again, I noticed some odd things, and I got this crazy idea/hypothesis:

What if Moradin, creator of the Dwarves, was originally one of the gods of the Giants?

Data that made me think that:

-The Volo's makes two direct comparison between Dwarves and Giants: one of Volo's notes says the Dwarves and the Fire Giants are equal at forging, and one of Elminster's notes says how some Dwarves's tendency to get so lost in the craft they love that they only live for it is similar to the Stone Giants's way of life (and basicaly all Dwarves tend to get lost in their work, if to a lesser degree). Both those things were explicitly given to the different species by their respective gods.

-Both the Dwarves and the Giants considers their clan and family to be of immense importance, and generally live in communities based around them.

-The Dwarves are noted to seek personal excellency in the domains of activity they judge important, and their prowess in that domain increase both their individual's status and the one of their Clan's, similar to how the Ordning means a Giant's status is based on their prowess in reaching excellency in the domain their kind is defined by.

-The Stone Giant's, the Fire Giant's, and to an extent the Cloud Giant's Ordnings are remarkably similar to the what the Dwarves value a lot due to their Gods, ie artistry and stone work, metalworking (and to a lesser extent warfare), and possessing magnificent objects.

-The Dwarves and the Giants share the same alphabet, but both claim that they are the ones how had it first. Dwarves consider claiming others' work as your own to be anathema and sinful, yet there are hints that the Giants existed far before the Dwarves and still used this alphabet.

-Giants's and Dwarves's towns (and other communities) tend to ressemble each others (in particular the Mountain Dwarves' and the Stone Giant's ones, and the Fire Giants' with the dwarwen forges): well protected and filled with works the occupants value (even Hill Giants' keeps are like that).

As well as other anecdotic similarities.

So, what do you think? Me seeing patterns where there is none? A simple case of two species sharing some of their archetypal traits despite having no relations (it can happen in D&D, but usually when two species shares so many traits there is some kind of connection between the two)? Or could it be that Moradin was actually linked to the Giant Gods before he made his own mortals on his anvil?

Again, this is just a crazy idea I had, and the speculation is mostly for fun. I don't believe it's true or that there is any hard piece of evidence. I just noticed the similarities and thought it could be fun to share.

[Quoxis]

Racial traits like „getting lost in their work“? Eh. I‘ve seen dogs chase their tails, meanwhile i‘m grindIng xp in a video game, which too is basically the same thing, but that doesn’t mean i‘m a son of a bi- nah, too cheesy of a wordplay.
The alphabet thing: cool. You might be onto something, but tbh it’s just as likely to be an oversight on wotc‘s side.
In conclusion: this is a great idea for a campaign setting (pcs find out about the true heritage of the dwarves and can decide whether to destroy evidence and keep peace or share it with the world and see thousands of dwarves become atheists or have faith crisis‘).

[strangebloke]

Works for me. Giants certainly have a lawful bent overall, and I feel that of all the species, the leaves would flourish the best under an ordning-like system.

[Regitnui]

I like this, especially mixed with the nugget that the giants' head god has disappeared. What if their pantheon head became Moradin, or abandoned them after the giant race split?

[Anonymouswizard]

It's an interesting and potentially fun idea. Isn't it a common element that dwarves used to be be enslaved by giants? Here's a theory:

Dwarves were originally the giant equivalent of dogs, a servitor species that underwent convergent evolution. Like dogs dwarves are a little less intelligent than their 'natural' kin, but are by no means stupid and possess abilities that make them get along well with giants.

In this model Moradin was either a giant god that decided that dwarves deserved their freedom, or a giant or dwarf who led the dwarves to freedom became a god upon their death.

By the way, the original species dwarves evolved from? The ones not adopted by giants eventually became the gnomes. Ask the skill and craftsmanship of a dwarf, none of the intense focus.

Any thoughts? I'm sure we can build something off of this idea.

[PhoenixPhyre]

On mobile, but my dwarves are the descendants of the same primeval race as giants. The Titans used runic magic; both dwarven and giant languages use a broken form of that script. Goliaths (now thought extinct) too; gnomes are a forced hybrid of dwarves and goblins.

[vicente408]

Interesting idea, and gives me the idea to use in a homebrew setting someday that dwarves have their own version of the Ordning to define their status/caste/role in dwarven society. Maybe with duergar as a splinter group that made deals with dark forces in an attempt at freedom from their assigned roles?

[Unoriginal]

It's an interesting and potentially fun idea. Isn't it a common element that dwarves used to be be enslaved by giants? Here's a theory:

Dwarves were originally the giant equivalent of dogs, a servitor species that underwent convergent evolution. Like dogs dwarves are a little less intelligent than their 'natural' kin, but are by no means stupid and possess abilities that make them get along well with giants.

In this model Moradin was either a giant god that decided that dwarves deserved their freedom, or a giant or dwarf who led the dwarves to freedom became a god upon their death.

By the way, the original species dwarves evolved from? The ones not adopted by giants eventually became the gnomes. Ask the skill and craftsmanship of a dwarf, none of the intense focus.

Any thoughts? I'm sure we can build something off of this idea.

I prefer the "created by Moradin on his anvil" origin for the 5e Dwarves.

[Luccan]

I like the idea of Moradin originally being some sort of giant deity. Or maybe even a giant who ascended to deity status and sought to create a race similar to giants, without all their pride turning to a paternal, often damaging, arrogance over other races. Doubt it's canon, but a fun idea.

I also like the idea of a dwarf god who wants his people to take pride in their clans and work and to amass glory and riches, but dissaproves of arrogance and greed, which is what I would do with Moradin based off this idea.

[Unoriginal]

I also like the idea of a dwarf god who wants his people to take pride in their clans and work and to amass glory and riches, but dissaproves of arrogance and greed, which is what I would do with Moradin based off this idea.

It's canonically how Moradin is, or at least how the Dwarves are.


https://youtu.be/TYNU3Bk23IE

[Millstone85]

I like this, especially mixed with the nugget that the giants' head god has disappeared. What if their pantheon head became Moradin, or abandoned them after the giant race split?Annam and Moradin both go by the title of All-Father.

Well, coincidences happen. :smallwink:

[Luccan]

It's canonically how Moradin is, or at least how the Dwarves are.


https://youtu.be/TYNU3Bk23IE

Huh, I feel like this never gets brought up. I mean, yeah, dwarves would of course not want to give in to greed totally, but considering that's how so many of their kingdoms fall, I figured it wasn't as taboo as that.

[Unoriginal]

Huh, I feel like this never gets brought up. I mean, yeah, dwarves would of course not want to give in to greed totally, but considering that's how so many of their kingdoms fall, I figured it wasn't as taboo as that.

This is 5e lore, they weren't the same in other editions.

[Moredhel24]

By the way, the original species dwarves evolved from? The ones not adopted by giants eventually became the gnomes. Ask the skill and craftsmanship of a dwarf, none of the intense focus.

So dwarves are akin to working breed dogs while gnomes are chihuahuas, dachshund, or small terriers?

[Droodicus]

Maybe it's like the tale of mjolnir and loki. When moraine the giant god was forging giants in his image, the trickster giant god (away from book but maybe it was skoreaus? ) plays a prank that leads to the creation of tiny giants, the dwarves. Annam then banishes moradin for the insult to giant kind.

[Ganymede]

The Dwarven gods, at least in earlier editions, are also portrayed as being exceptionally large and tall. I believe Moradin was quoted as being over 20' tall in a 1E book.

[Pronounceable]

It's because they're all vikings. They used so much of the same stereotypes they accidentally created a neat mythical looking similarity there. No reason to not make it canon inworld too, as it's neat.

[Moradin]

[...]
What if Moradin, creator of the Dwarves, was originally one of the gods of the Giants?
[...]

You caught me!

Jokes aside, it is an interesting idea. Nonetheless, let's not forget that in 3/3.5, dwarves had a special training vs giants (+4 dodge to AC), reflecting the battles their ancestors had against this race. It hardly seem like the two races were anytime close; if anything, all points towards them hating each other. But I like the idea, I'll try and implement it in my games, if I have the chance.

[Unoriginal]

You caught me!

Jokes aside, it is an interesting idea. Nonetheless, let's not forget that in 3/3.5, dwarves had a special training vs giants (+4 dodge to AC), reflecting the battles their ancestors had against this race. It hardly seem like the two races were anytime close; if anything, all points towards them hating each other. But I like the idea, I'll try and implement it in my games, if I have the chance.

3.X's Dwarves are pretty different from 5e's ones, though.

[Millstone85]

It's because they're all vikings. They used so much of the same stereotypes they accidentally created a neat mythical looking similarity there. No reason to not make it canon inworld too, as it's neat.Exactly this!

[Unoriginal]

It's because they're all vikings. They used so much of the same stereotypes they accidentally created a neat mythical looking similarity there. No reason to not make it canon inworld too, as it's neat.

Dwarves and most Giants aren't vikings at all, though. The only ones who are viking-like are the Frost Giants.

[Anonymouswizard]

I prefer the "created by Moradin on his anvil" origin for the 5e Dwarves.

Oh, entirely fair. I personally prefer to have my fantasy species have evolved (and to generally be of the homo genus), but for more mythical settings or more fantastical ones it's a cool origin.

I must think there's potential in dwarves having been 'forged' by giants from some other series.


So dwarves are akin to working breed dogs while gnomes are chihuahuas, dachshund, or small terriers?

Yes! You've got it in one! Gnomes are Yorkshire Terriers!

In all seriousness, the idea is roughly that dwarves are to working dog breeds as gnomes are to wolves. One has been shaped to help another species through years of convergent evolution, the other hasn't.

[Millstone85]

Dwarves and most Giants aren't vikings at all, though. The only ones who are viking-like are the Frost Giants.Dwarves aren't raiders, but their aesthetics match that of, say, Marvel's Asgardians. Proud warriors clad in rune-engraved iron, always ready to dedicate another beer to the All-Father.

[Coidzor]

3.X's Dwarves are pretty different from 5e's ones, though.

That must make honoring their ancestors very strange for FR dwarves, then.