Optimizing the Purple Dragon Knight

[Easy_Lee]

The purpose of this thread is to determine the optimal way to build the weakest archetype for what many consider to be the weakest class: the Purple Dragon Knight Fighter.

This archetype appears in SCAG (http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/sc-adventurers-guide). For that reason, I can't link to the full text of the archetype but I believe I can summarize its first three abilities:

3rd: heal three allies when the fighter uses Second Wind. The allies must be able to see or hear you and thus this arguably does not work on unconscious allies (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/12/can-rallying-cry-restore-hp-to-a-character-who-currently-has-0-hp/).
7th: persuasion + expertise in persuasion.
10th: when the PDK uses Action Surge, one ally can spend his reaction to make one melee or ranged weapon attack. This is not an opportunity attack, so there's no synergy

That's not a strong chassis, but it does convey a standard fantasy fighter-leader exceptionally well. This character has no magic or special abilities and gains the most from its features as a pure fighter. But he's an experienced martial combatant, is charismatic and persuasive, and inspires his allies to fight harder. He's a martial front-liner and decent party-face.

Race Choice

Anything with a bonus to charisma and strength or dexterity will do fine. The most obvious choices from the PHB are drow elf, dragonborn, half-elf, lightfoot halfling, and variant human. Of these, I believe variant human and half-elf are the best options. Half-elves have superior attributes and racial abilities while variant humans start with a free feat choice. Half-elves are likely the best long-term choice due to the Fighter gaining two bonus feats.

Feat Choices


Inspiring Leader - the most obvious feat choice, fits both with the PDK's high charisma and leader-y fluff. It also gives you the excuse to force your table to listen to your rousing inspirational speeches.
Ritual Caster - always a good choice but potentially more useful here as the PDK has a decent Charisma and could take the Bard list. The Wizard ritual spell list is better, but the Bard actually has a few that the Wizard does not including Animal Messenger and Locate Animals or Plants. Both get Leomund's Tiny Hut which someone with the Ritual Caster feat might pick up at 6th level and which is invaluable in many circumstances.
Polearm Master - obvious for fighters trying to maximize melee damage.
Great Weapon Master - obvious for fighters trying to maximize melee damage.
Sharpshooter - great for archers, and the PDK can actually make a decent archer as long as he stays within 60' of his allies. If going this route, you would also want Crossbow Expert both for range limitations and a consistent bonus action attach.
Sentinel - good on a front-line martial in general.
Shield Master - quite good on a defensive fighter, but best if you're a human or half-elf and also take the XGtE feat Prodigy for expertise in Athletics.


Ideal Allies

Rogues, Barbarians, and Rangers all appreciate free reaction attacks from the 10th level ability and healing from the 3rd level ability. Paladins are also great but may overlap with the PDK's party role.

Sample Builds:

Standard greatsword-swinging fighter: Half-elf, Inspiring Leader, GWM, Great Weapon Fighting Style - will do great damage, also functions as a party face and supportive teammate
Shield Master: Variant Human, Shield Master, Prodigy (Athletics), Inspiring Leader, Protection Fighting Style - this versatile character has expertise in two useful skills, can serve as party face, can defend allies, has superior AC, and can knock enemies prone with great consistency.

What am I missing? Are there any great multiclass opportunities or other feat and race choices that work well on a PDK?

[Paeleus]

I think the most optimal way to play a PDK is to play a paladin.

Jokes aside, any charisma based caster would add cool tricks such as Smites for spike damage, EB for a solid range option, or Shield for obvious reasons.

I think Swashbuckler would be worth a 3 or 4 level dip for the better initiative and the expertise in athletics could save the prodigy feat tax if going the Shield Master path.

[Ganymede]

Ahh, such groundbreaking tidbits like "Take Polearm Master, Greatweapon Master, or Sharpshooter."

[Specter]

That 3rd level ability is like scotch: it's totally lame by the time you get it, but at level 20 it's up to 110hp healed with a bonus action, and I don't think anyone else can pull that off. So a general piece of advice would be not to multiclass unless you know you're not going far, in which case you shouldn't play a PDK.

[MxKit]

You covered the PHB races, but to get into some of the others: Scourge Aasimar, Fallen Aasimar, Tabaxi, and Tritons give Charisma boosts as well as another boost to stats you're going to want to have.

Bugbears, Duergar, Air Genasi, Earth Genasi, Goblins, Goliaths, Half-Orcs, Stout Halflings, Kobolds, and Tieflings also wouldn't be <i>bad,</i> though they lack either the Charisma bonus or the martial-related bonus. They give you other good Fighterin' stuff, though.

Personally, I think if you're going Banneret, you're going to want to stick with it up through at least 17th level, for the extra use of Action Surge and the third use of Indomitable, and probably 18th level for letting two allies get the benefit of your Inspiring Surges. That still leaves you open for a potential two-level dip, though, and plenty of classes give fun things to Fighters. Barbarian would improve your martial prowess, Rogue would improve that and your skills (and if you went three levels in, you could go Swashbuckler or Mastermind), Warlock could work out great for you with your Charisma (and if you go three levels in, you could go Pact of the Blade), and Bard and Paladin synergise well with both your high Charisma and your help-out-the-party priorities.

[Malifice]

What am I missing? Are there any great multiclass opportunities or other feat and race choices that work well on a PDK?

Oath of the Crown Paladin, and Valor Bard make for two very effective and fluffy MC combos.

Between bardic inspiration buffing the party, bard spells buffing the party, your sacred oath buffing the party, or locking down tagets, your PDK abilities buffing the party, the Protection F/S defending the party, Inspiring leader feat etc, you have a very effective 'Warlord'.

[jas61292]

As has been mentioned, there is very little that this subclass gets that would not be inferior to other sub classes unless you really stick with it.

Sharing your Second Wind is incredibly underwhelming at first due to only giving part of the already minor healing. As such, with the way it scales, it will only ever become decent if you reach high levels AND stay single classed. Similarly, the level 7 feature, while perfectly good, is hardly the cornerstone of a build. And if it was, Rogue and Bard could do it just as well but with less investment. Sharing your Action Surge, on the other hand, that is where things start to come together. Its not the most amazing or unique thing ever, but it is actually good, which is the best thing I can say about the subclass so far. And finally, if you stick it out far enough, Bulwark is not bad at all. I mean... its not good. But the potential to turn a situation where two party members might be down and out into one where no one is can be quite useful.

But yeah, really, if you are playing this class for more than just the flavor (which is not a bad reason at all to play it, for what its worth), you really, really want to stick with it all the way to the end. Only at level 17, when you can finally give two allies an attack with your action surge, can you really do something fairly powerful and worth writing home about.

So with that in mind, whatever build you make with this should most likely either be pure class or, at most, have a 3 level dip (or a 1 and a 2, or three 1s, I guess....). Personally, I'd try and play up the charismatic side of things. Make sure you have good charisma to actually make the most advantage of that Persuasion expertise you have, and maybe use feats or a small dip to grab some other things to use that Charisma for. Ideally, I'd probably grab persuasion from my Background so that I have it from the start, and use the level 7 feature to just grab a different skill. Feats like Inspiring Leader really help play into the archetype too. If you are going to be a Strength based Fighter, I'd consider using a feat to grab Magic Initiate (or Spell Sniper if you are a Tiefling or something) to grab a ranged cantrip. It will give another use for the high Charisma you would want, and probably has better range than anything you can throw. And of course, anything that is good for a fighter in general will be good for you. But... personally I'd stay away from most of those traditional fighter feats like Polearm Master or Sharpshooter. Not because they are bad for this subclass or anything, but because they are just good generic fighter things, and if I wanted to play a good generic fighter, I'd not be playing a Banneret.

That all said, one of the best ways to take advantage of this class, imo, would be to just dip Hexblade and actually make Charisma your primary. But... I hate Hexblade with a passion for the very fact that you can do this exact thing, so.... I would never do it myself.

[the_brazenburn]

IMO, Beastmaster Ranger is the weakest subclass from the weakest class (unless you use Revised).

The Purple Dragon Knight stuff looks good, though. I'd have to say that Dex builds are probably better than Strength ones, and that Variant Human might be a better option than half-elf, but that's just my opinion.

[Specter]

Now that I've reread SCAG, I noticed PDKs get nothing at level 18. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Were the devs drunk or something?

[Aett_Thorn]

That 3rd level ability is like scotch: it's totally lame by the time you get it, but at level 20 it's up to 110hp healed with a bonus action, and I don't think anyone else can pull that off. So a general piece of advice would be not to multiclass unless you know you're not going far, in which case you shouldn't play a PDK.

How are you getting that number? At level 20, I'm seeing 3 * 20 = 60 HP total. Hardly that amazing, given that to get that much from it, you need the have three hurt allies in range in the first place.

Even if you include the self healing (which isn't a part of this feature), it's a maximum of another 30 HP, so 90 total. But again, I don't think that you should include this as part of the subclass feature, since every fighter gets that part of it.

[Throne12]

Class: purple dragon knight
Race: v-human
Fighting style: great weapon
Weapons: glaive, and a quiver of javelins
Feats: magic Initiative, Inspiring leader, healer if you got space PAM.
Cantrips. Guidance, Thaumaturgy
1st. Divine favor.

[Specter]

How are you getting that number? At level 20, I'm seeing 3 * 20 = 60 HP total. Hardly that amazing, given that to get that much from it, you need the have three hurt allies in range in the first place.

Even if you include the self healing (which isn't a part of this feature), it's a maximum of another 30 HP, so 90 total. But again, I don't think that you should include this as part of the subclass feature, since every fighter gets that part of it.

I thought it was four allies, my bad. So yes, 60 + Second Wind's regular healing.
The point is not whether it's exclusive to PDKs or not, the point is the amount you can heal with a bonus action, which is, well, massive.

[Easy_Lee]

Now that I've reread SCAG, I noticed PDKs get nothing at level 18. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Were the devs drunk or something?

Inspiring Surge was supposed to go up at 18 instead of 17. That still sucks for the PDK as they don't get a proper capstone but instead a boost to one of their existing archetype abilities.

[Malifice]

PDK was a poor Warlord patch. It really is lackluster compared to other Fighter archetypes, and the really annoying thing is that taking it really restricts the BM manouvers you can select (Martial adept only).

I tend to find you're better off creating a Warlord with Battlemaster levels (Rally, commanders strike, manouvering strike etc), some Valor bard (bardic inspiration, combat inspiration, buff spells, expertise in Persuasion and Intimidate), and a splash of Paladin (auras, buff spells like bless and so forth).

Tack on the inspiring leader feat and the Defence F/S and you're pretty much there.

Works well on its own when it's not buffing others as well.

I like 5 levels of Valor Bard, 8 of Crown Paladin, and 7 of BM Fighter. Caster level 9th for smites (and spells) giving slots up to 5th level, plus 5d8 Sup dice (Commanders strike, Rally, Maneuvering attack, Distracting Strike, Goading attack), plus bardic inspiration 5/ short rest, plus +cha to saves, +bless etc.

Hits like a truck, and buffs like a legend.

[Easy_Lee]

PDK was a poor Warlord patch. It really is lackluster compared to other Fighter archetypes, and the really annoying thing is that taking it really restricts the BM manouvers you can select (Martial adept only).

I tend to find you're better off creating a Warlord with Battlemaster levels (Rally, commanders strike, manouvering strike etc), some Valor bard (bardic inspiration, combat inspiration, buff spells, expertise in Persuasion and Intimidate), and a splash of Paladin (auras, buff spells like bless and so forth).

Nothing wrong with that build, but I'm trying to make the most of a PDK.

Two reasons why:

I take great pleasure in making bad options work.
Thanks to my time here, I know more about the rules and optimization than any DM or player I've ever played with.

I tend to bring characters that are above the power curve relative to groups I play with simply because I'm better at building characters. As a result, I sometimes have to play "poorly" to avoid overshadowing the others. I try to be very aware of my group and their feelings when I play.

I figure if I take the least powerful options and make them work, I'll have an interesting character that can keep up without overshadowing anyone.

[mephnick]

Man reading this thread just reminds me how limited this subclass is. I'd never argue fighter is the weakest class in the game, but PDK is definitely the worst designed subclass. Yes, worse than 4e and BM. Sword Coast Guide really needed the playtest treatment.

[Naanomi]

Man reading this thread just reminds me how limited this subclass is. I'd never argue fighter is the weakest class in the game, but PDK is definitely the worst designed subclass. Yes, worse than 4e and BM. Sword Coast Guide really needed the playtest treatment.
I’d argue Undying Patron is worse

[Easy_Lee]

I’d argue Undying Patron is worse

Undying patron has a niche though: undead campaigns.

[Aett_Thorn]

Well, if you're dead set on making this work, I'd say that the main thing that you need to do when you're a Purple Dragon Knight is to focus on the timing.

Since you don't really gain any new features (you just tack on new abilities to existing features), you need to make sure that you're using them well. For instance, usually, a Fighter has no trouble using Second Wind whenever they're hurt. However, for you, you're going to want to use it when not only you're hurt, but other teammates are as well. Otherwise, you're wasting healing. If your teammate is hurt but you're not, you've wasted the self healing. If you're hurt but none of your teammates are, you've wasted the team healing. So wait until several teammates are a bit hurt before using it.

For Action Surge, a Fighter normally has no problem using this just whenever they want to take a second Action. However, as a PDK, you want to make sure that you're using this only whenever you have other teammates around that can benefit from it. For instance, if you have a Rogue or Paladin that can get a big off-turn hit in with it. However, it's going to use up their Reaction, so make sure that they're not going to need that for something else.

For Bulwark, use it whenever you actually can, because the times where this would come up maybe few and far between.

[ad_hoc]

All it needs is to allow the healing on characters at 0hp and it would be a decent subclass.

Giving them the full Second Wind would also be reasonable.

[opaopajr]

From what I am seeing in the DnD 5e Basic PHB text, there is no limiting clause "in/during combat" in either Second Wind or Action Surge, so no Specific Beats General limiter there. Thus they are usable outside of combat. And since they both are rechargable by Short or Long Rests, they are therefore repeatable during longer lulls between combat.

Which brings me to question the wording on PDK's Rallying Cry and Inspiring Surge features. Granted I am reading from online, so please correct if it is not the correct PDK text clauses. But what words I see are "When you use X feature..." it is followed by the clause "you can chooose (up to) N creature(/s)."

This necessarily implies you are using that initiating feature as written beforehand as the trigger of this process, and "can choose" this archetype feature atop the initiating feature's effect. It is not an "instead of" clause. Ergo, what is there in the text to prevent repeated Short Rests to spam these effects during non-combat time? At 3rd lvl, a PDK Second Winds for 3+1d10 HP, and may Rallying Cry atop so it can choose up to three targets for 3 HP each -- pretty much every peacetime hour.

Further, (to nip in the bud the response to the word "attack" in Inspiring Surge's feature from being a defense that they are intended to only be used in combat,) attack allows target of Nouns -- literally a Person, Place, or Thing. Citation:

Making an Attack
Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, ring a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location. [...]
(D&D 5e Basic PHB. August 2014, v.02. p. 73.)

(Also using its location in the Combat chapter makes no sense from limiting Attack to strictly combat time usage, otherwise for consistency you would have to further prevent Help, Ready, Dash, and Use an Object as well. Sheer coherency defeats these arguments. Attack allows the targeting of nouns, inside or outside of combat. Thus Inspiring Surge is usable outside of combat, and moreso repeatable after each Short Rest.)

It seems like you have a repeatable group minor heal and group coordinated trick with a PDK. Want to have someone cut the rope (holding whatever) as you action surge a trick? (Or, wanna emulate Ewoks of Endor ambushes?) Here's your guy. Want to keep your allies in good health without deep expenditure during peace time? Here's your guy.

It seems a PDK lives and breathes by his allies. But given it's repeatable group heal and coordinated efforts, it's a lot of power projection. That's really hard to tamp down design-wise. Won't play as optimally with elite squad adventures as much, but looks to be a total monster in weaponizing the average joes at low expense.

More than any other "build widget" this archetype screams "invest in skilled servants." Granted that's not AL doable, but DPK and AL sounds like it'll go together like sardines and raspberry jam. AL adventures lean heavily into focused elite squad adventures, with less negotiation of how many SRs a party can take. But other than that, PDK sounds like a multiplier effect archetype in the right hands.

Someone please double check PDK clause wording to make sure there is no "instead of" clause!

[Specter]

If PDK's main features rely on resting, then the only way to optimize them is to rely on rests as much as possible. Allies with Catnap, Leomund''s Tiny Hut and Rope Trick are your best allies.

[Easy_Lee]

If PDK's main features rely on resting, then the only way to optimize them is to rely on rests as much as possible. Allies with Catnap, Leomund''s Tiny Hut and Rope Trick are your best allies.

Sure, but the same is true of the battlemaster.

[Aett_Thorn]

Ergo, what is there in the text to prevent repeated Short Rests to spam these effects during non-combat time? At 3rd lvl, a PDK Second Winds for 3+1d10 HP, and may Rallying Cry atop so it can choose up to three targets for 3 HP each -- pretty much every peacetime hour.

Any decent DM would easily put a stop to this by enforcing some adventure pacing. Also, if you're only giving back 3 HP per short rest, why not just have the party use their Hit Dice during that short rest and probably heal for more?



Further, (to nip in the bud the response to the word "attack" in Inspiring Surge's feature from being a defense that they are intended to only be used in combat,) attack allows target of Nouns -- literally a Person, Place, or Thing. Citation:

Making an Attack
Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, ring a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location. [...]
(D&D 5e Basic PHB. August 2014, v.02. p. 73.)

(Also using its location in the Combat chapter makes no sense from limiting Attack to strictly combat time usage, otherwise for consistency you would have to further prevent Help, Ready, Dash, and Use an Object as well. Sheer coherency defeats these arguments. Attack allows the targeting of nouns, inside or outside of combat. Thus Inspiring Surge is usable outside of combat, and moreso repeatable after each Short Rest.)

It seems like you have a repeatable group minor heal and group coordinated trick with a PDK. Want to have someone cut the rope (holding whatever) as you action surge a trick? (Or, wanna emulate Ewoks of Endor ambushes?) Here's your guy. Want to keep your allies in good health without deep expenditure during peace time? Here's your guy.

It seems a PDK lives and breathes by his allies. But given it's repeatable group heal and coordinated efforts, it's a lot of power projection. That's really hard to tamp down design-wise. Won't play as optimally with elite squad adventures as much, but looks to be a total monster in weaponizing the average joes at low expense.

More than any other "build widget" this archetype screams "invest in skilled servants." Granted that's not AL doable, but DPK and AL sounds like it'll go together like sardines and raspberry jam. AL adventures lean heavily into focused elite squad adventures, with less negotiation of how many SRs a party can take. But other than that, PDK sounds like a multiplier effect archetype in the right hands.

Someone please double check PDK clause wording to make sure there is no "instead of" clause!

Well, sure, but that seems uber situational to me.

I mean, if you have the game the system this much for the subclass to be worth it, I'd still say that it's not worth it.

[opaopajr]

Arrgh! No one confirmed the text clauses! :smalltongue:

And as for gaming SRs, I don't think much of it. A GM shouldn't be worrying about players "gaming" their own adventure pacing beyond the general In-Game and Out-Of-Game timer. All SRs do during peacetime safe areas is trade for more Social (and *maybe* light Explore) time for a PC widget benefit -- and as always such time remains interruptable. It's their PCs' game, you are just their biggest fans. Let them pace their adventures as they wish.

Artificial interruptions, like "And Ninjas Attack!", out of boredom or laziness of not being in combat is just GM sour grapes impatience in my view. Social is often the most dangerous pillar, longterm; it's the tapping on spider web strands of institutions and social mores. And it is also a major feeder of hooks and quests, of which every party will easily be overloaded the more they tap this pillar. In-Character NPC Agendas will forever move on their own pace, so there is no need for this GM artifice of "illusionism."

So no, I reject the "decent GM" would stop it with arbitrary combats. That's lazy GMing to me. Actions have consequences, and players managing the pace of their play is merely one of these. There is no need to metagame a counter to the players when the choice already implicates at least 3 major potential consequences -- of which at least #1 will always trigger with both its parts.

(If you "enforce it with coherent pacing," fine! I agree in spirit! :smallsmile: But I want others to understand deeper, for there is a pitfall lurking here. I want new GMs to avoid thinking idly why throwing more combat at the party, if they chose safe areas for peacetime rests, is the go-to solution. The Enforced Pacing should try for coherency. And since all actions have costs, the cosequences will naturally follow.)

Those consequences are:

1) taking longer to complete a quest.
a. OOC time loss, taking more sessions to beat.
b. IC time loss, NPC agendas have more time to complete.
2) possible lingering in dangerous territory, (random encounters).
a. OOC pressure on non-SR refreshed metagame resources.
b. IC pressure on setting resources (gear & allies).
3) possible tapping of Social & Explore pillars.
a. OOC overloaded plate of quest opportunities, many of which have their own timeframe.
b. IC tapping of the Social and Environmental webs, which may trigger further consequences, both short and long term.

In fact, it's trading in focused quest time for opportunities within the richer setting-dependent pillars that I like the most. This enmeshes them deeper into the setting experience, which is something I would want as a GM. If the setting world is alive -- and up to the task of counterbalancing the game's mechanics through setting consequences -- then there is no such "wrong answer" to how players pace themselves. It's just new opportunities and consequences from a choice.

So PDK's SR-based widgets are only an issue when a GM lets players "top off the gas tank for free" without contemplating the ramifications.

[Easy_Lee]

Regarding rests, the ability to second wind outside of combat in an effort to give people additional HP before a rest is noteworthy. The healing is small but not inconsequential when used properly.

[Specter]

Sure, but the same is true of the battlemaster.

Well... Yeah.

Congratulations boys, we found a subclass whose features can't be optimized at all.

[Easy_Lee]

Well... Yeah.

Congratulations boys, we found a subclass whose features can't be optimized at all.

No I think you made a good point. The PDK might work well if the rest of the party is a monk, warlock, and Catnap-casting bard. They'll appreciate his healing and, between PDK and bard, should always be at full health after a rest.

[PeteNutButter]

You guys are missing the true potential here. Since it relies entirely on allies, you need to create your own ally to make the build truly self sufficient. So you combine it with beastmaster and suddenly one round per short rest you can actually function like a beastmaster! Two horrible subclasses combine to be... a pretty bad build still, but there is a bit of synergy.

To really use this you might want to roll with the idea and combine it with powerful summons like a planar ally or a teammate that is currently polymorphed into a T Rex. Things like that are stronger than rogue damage for a good bit.

The problem with PDK is one of its defining features is basically a slightly improved commanders strike, but with significantly less uses per short rest, and its other feature is just extremely weak. An upcast mass healing word is just so much more useful as it can heal more and actually brings people back. I love optimizing bad classes but there usually needs to be one niche thing that you can push to the extreme. Sadly, PDK doesn’t even have a niche that other classes can’t do so much better. It’s like a Druid subclass that functions like a moon Druid but only gets CR increases at half the progression, a half moon Druid. Just straight up worse.

All that being said, the fighter base chassis is enough to potentially let you carry the party with some GWM/SS BS, while your subclass sucks ass.

Edit: Does telepathy count as hearing? Because a Rarys Telepathic Bound could allow you to revive unconscious teammates...