How does your game govern when a character decides to give up in a fight?

[Donnadogsoth]

Hit points could do this job, instead of also uneasily modeling physical injuries. If I were to use hit points I would have them represent resolve, not capacity for injury. Wounds I would deal with separately.

Living Steel compares wounds with the character's combat skill and courage under fire to see whether he or she becomes useless. I have expanded this to include mental shocks like seeing a giant spider, entering a haunted crypt or even wandering away from one's dark ages village for the first time.

How do you determine whether or not a PC or NPC either cowers in shock, surrenders, or flees? Do you combine the injury and morale aspects of the matter into a single subsystem like D&D or Palladium's hit points, or do you separate wound from morale issues, like Living Steel?

(I am aware that at least some versions of D&D have a morale system, but I do not remember how it worked, and have no way to immediately check.)

[oxybe]

I use my brain?

Asking yourself "why is this person fighting? are they willing to lose their life over this? are they ok with being captured?" should be enough to determine if any given enemy gives up or runs away.

A zealot will probably fight to the death for their cause while a random thug will probably run away when a strong resistance is put up: they want easy money, not to lose their life.

Some monsters, like goblins, scatter when the going gets tough. Others, like kobolds, will scatter but often to regroup and mount a defense against invaders using their superior numbers.

I tend to try to play most intelligent creatures as not wanting to die.

Big, dumb ones like Ogres might just fight until they die as dying to a squishy littl'un doesn't even register as possible and Orcish tradition dictates that the weak are culled anyways, so why not fight until you win or die. Some Drow may just fight until they die as they know worse punishments are in store for them if they come back in failure. Frenzied werebeasts might not be aware how weak they are and fight until they die.

Obviously creatures with non-intelligence, like many undead or constructs, will just keep doing their last instruction, even to their detriment. Predatory undead don't want to re-die either: they'll retreat to lick their wounds and try again or simply find another prey that won't try to stab them.

Now individuals might break the mold: a wanted man may know that horrible torture for his crimes may be his future if he gets caught, so any pursuer should be ready to fight for their lives. A particularly treacherous orc may sell out his band for his life and leave to form a new one in another area. A werewolf with his wits about him may just escape when it's obvious that he's fighting prepared enemies.

But I never really cared for random morality checks "why is this person fighting and is it worth them losing their lives over this scuffle?" generally answers the "do they run, give up or fight" answer, regardless of system.

[Darth Ultron]

DM Whim mostly.

With some general guidelines like:

Most foes won't ''fight to the death''. In general, many only stay in the fight if the ''have a chance to win'', ''are winning'' or at least ''are not loosing''. The basic thug/bully mentality.

Most foes will retreat once they loose about half their hit points, and surrender if they get down to like a quarter.

Some foes are very fanatical, and will fight to the death...no matter what.

A typical ''hungry'' monster is likely to fight to the death....even more so if it's in it's lair.

And, should the PCs be murderhobos, foes will fight to the death..because, after all, they will be killed either way.

[Grek]

Players decide when their player character flees based on whatever criteria they want. DM decides when NPCs flee based on the goals and personality of the NPC. When I'm DMing, all NPCs default to fleeing and only attack if A] they were already planning on this fight, either in particular (they're ambushing/hunting the PCs) or in general (they're guarding something and will fight anyone who tries to take it), or B] if they can't successfully flee.

[Quertus]

(I am aware that at least some versions of D&D have a morale system, but I do not remember how it worked, and have no way to immediately check.)

Let me start here. Off the top of my head, mind.

There were certain decision points (every 25% losses, leader dies, etc) at which point the NPC group needs to check morale. Different creatures had different morale ratings, with different target numbers for how likely they were to break.

The roll had various modifiers - including for the situation that caused the roll, how badly that they were outnumbered, and whether they had any ability to damage their opponent.

Some creatures were fearless, and never checked morale.

-----

Me, I'd like to say that I prefer to "just roleplay", but, honestly, when playing earlier editions of D&D, most often, I'd just use the existing morale system, out of a desire to be both fair and lazy. Although, even when I used it, I'd occasionally throw in results it didn't have, like just one monster flees, or just one holds the line while the rest flee. Or, say, zombies attack the town, and one guard sees his daughter, and breaks formation to go pull her to safety. Just little things to add character to the fights.

But, for systems without such a mechanic, or when I felt like the added effort would be worthwhile, I'd just ask WWaPCD?

[CharonsHelper]

I'm not a fan of Morale systems for PCs (I don't like to remove their control from the PCs much) but I like them for NPCs if properly integrated into the system.

I've seen systems where it's just slapped on and it feels awkward.

I added a Morale system into my own WIP, but I tied it into the initiative system to keep it from needing extra rolls, and there are PC abilities which can interact with it, forcing penalties to the NPCs' next Morale check etc.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Player characters are at their own discretion as to when to retreat from an engagement. Unfortunately for them, the answer is usually "No retreat! Follow me to glory!"

However, enemies usually consider fleeing if their leaders are dead and/or their unit has suffered heavy casualties. I don't use an actual test, just GM's discretion.

Typically, units also don't retreat if they wouldn't be able to escape, because the party is faster or has the range to gun them down as they flee.

[BWR]

Usually I'll use my brain. How does X character/reature feel about Y situation. Easy enough. I use morale for most NPCs/creatures in borderline situations, usually determined in the fly if one isn't available.

[Quertus]

Oh, PCs? Yeah, no. Short of supernatural compulsion, I am unlikely to play a game where the system takes control of the PCs away from the players.

I've had a loaded gun to my head / pointed at me more times than I believe someone is likely to live through. I've been in an enclosure when an animal that was capable of killing me went wild from pain. I've been within spitting distance of a wild bear and her cubs. I've had a lot of potentially terrifying experiences, and whether I fled or not has always been my choice. Why would I let a system make that choice for my character?

[ross]

Oh, PCs? Yeah, no. Short of supernatural compulsion, I am unlikely to play a game where the system takes control of the PCs away from the players.

I've had a loaded gun to my head / pointed at me more times than I believe someone is likely to live through. I've been in an enclosure when an animal that was capable of killing me went wild from pain. I've been within spitting distance of a wild bear and her cubs. I've had a lot of potentially terrifying experiences, and whether I fled or not has always been my choice. Why would I let a system make that choice for my character?

high quality cringe here, thanks

[Koo Rehtorb]

In Burning Wheel there's a mechanic called "Steel". At character creation you answer a bunch of questions about your PC's life up until that point. Some notable questions include "have you ever killed someone before?" "have you ever been badly injured?" "were you a professional soldier at any point in your life?" etc. From those questions you get your character's starting Steel, basically how used they are to being in stressful/dangerous situations.

In play when you encounter a highly stressful situation, getting stabbed, coming face to face with a terrifying dragon, being shot at, etc, then you roll your Steel with a base difficulty of 10 - your will. Additional difficulty can be added to that based on the situation, encountering a god is much harder than being shot at. For every point of failure under the target number you're forced to spend a "heartbeat" doing one of four things. "Run screaming", "fall prone and beg for mercy", "stand and drool" or "swoon". You have your choice of which of those options your character does, but on any of them you're ineffective for some number of seconds. Once that time is up you're free to act again as you please. It's notable that the game expects that most people will fail this test by some amount and it's important how much you fail by. If you want to be a character that actually passes Steel tests then you're going to need to have an abnormally high Steel and Will and probably some traits as well.

And, like anything else in Burning Wheel, you get better at things by doing them so if you're routinely making Steel tests eventually you're going to get better at it.

[LibraryOgre]

Morale for most NPCs; PCs continue to whenever their player decides to stop, barring other considerations (like a Barbarian's magic phobia)

[Quertus]

In Burning Wheel there's a mechanic called "Steel". At character creation you answer a bunch of questions about your PC's life up until that point. Some notable questions include "have you ever killed someone before?" "have you ever been badly injured?" "were you a professional soldier at any point in your life?" etc. From those questions you get your character's starting Steel, basically how used they are to being in stressful/dangerous situations.

In play when you encounter a highly stressful situation, getting stabbed, coming face to face with a terrifying dragon, being shot at, etc, then you roll your Steel with a base difficulty of 10 - your will. Additional difficulty can be added to that based on the situation, encountering a god is much harder than being shot at. For every point of failure under the target number you're forced to spend a "heartbeat" doing one of four things. "Run screaming", "fall prone and beg for mercy", "stand and drool" or "swoon". You have your choice of which of those options your character does, but on any of them you're ineffective for some number of seconds. Once that time is up you're free to act again as you please. It's notable that the game expects that most people will fail this test by some amount and it's important how much you fail by. If you want to be a character that actually passes Steel tests then you're going to need to have an abnormally high Steel and Will and probably some traits as well.

And, like anything else in Burning Wheel, you get better at things by doing them so if you're routinely making Steel tests eventually you're going to get better at it.

Hmmm... Depending on how you fluff "stand and drool", I might find this system not actually objectionable. Depending on the situation, I or even some of the most "steeled" soldiers I know might pause for a few heartbeats when someone explodes unexpectedly. Having a system that modifies initiative by how long it takes the character to collect themselves after trauma sounds reasonable, IMO.

The only thing I would add is, I - and most people I know - will still respond immediately in such circumstances when a CO (or equivalent) belts out an order, like "MOVE!" or "DOWN!" or "DUCK!" or even "HELP!". Longer orders may not count, as they may take more heartbeats.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Hmmm... Depending on how you fluff "stand and drool", I might find this system not actually objectionable. Depending on the situation, I or even some of the most "steeled" soldiers I know might pause for a few heartbeats when someone explodes unexpectedly. Having a system that modifies initiative by how long it takes the character to collect themselves after trauma sounds reasonable, IMO.

The only thing I would add is, I - and most people I know - will still respond immediately in such circumstances when a CO (or equivalent) belts out an order, like "MOVE!" or "DOWN!" or "DUCK!" or even "HELP!". Longer orders may not count, as they may take more heartbeats.

System has you covered. Someone who isn't hesitating can make a Command test (with the difficulty based on how much your target is hesitating for) to snap them out of it instantly.

[Psikerlord]

Generally speaking players decide whether their PC tries to run away, bargains, etc.

I like to have a formal party retreat rule in place so everyone knows retreat is valid option and the chances of success.

For NPCs, I generally go by GM fiat or make a willpower check (with mods depending on the situation).

[Grod_The_Giant]

A good rule of thumb for many situations is "when the players have clearly won." In a lot of systems, a fight can hit a point where the result is a foregone conclusion-- there are only scattered minions, or a big tanky guy getting beaten down by the more numerous party, or woud penalties or other debuffy things have crippled enemies, and it's all over but for the actual rolling. Sometimes you'll even hit a tipping point before then, when the party hits on a winning strategy and have a few good rounds. At that point, it's sometimes worth throwing in a surrender or retreat for the sole purpose of wrapping up the fight and saving time (while also tying nicely to in-game events-- "holy crap, we're getting our butts kicked, run away!").

[Keltest]

Typically, I also use my brain. Playerss are almost entirely in charge of the foolish decisions their characters make, barring magical compulsion, with the exception of if they have some trait like, say, arachnophobia, in which case I might work out a system with them to determine how well their character is able to stand their ground against a spider the size of a small house.

[RFLS]

Oh, PCs? Yeah, no. Short of supernatural compulsion, I am unlikely to play a game where the system takes control of the PCs away from the players.

I've had a loaded gun to my head / pointed at me more times than I believe someone is likely to live through. I've been in an enclosure when an animal that was capable of killing me went wild from pain. I've been within spitting distance of a wild bear and her cubs. I've had a lot of potentially terrifying experiences, and whether I fled or not has always been my choice. Why would I let a system make that choice for my character?

I feel like there's a good story or two in here.

[Geddy2112]

Ill throw a +1 to PC's getting to determine when they flee combat(short of magic forcibly removing them from combat or mind control/influence and the like)

For NPC's and monsters, I always build encounters with the morale of the enemy in mind and I know in advance under what circumstances an enemy will surrender, flee, or fight to the death. If my players throw a curve ball, I either know enough about the NPC or I can refer to the monster manual entry to figure out what they would do. If an enemy is immune to fear, they never surrender or flee, but might retreat to lick wounds and prepare another attack. If none of that resolves morale, I may roll, but I have had to do that only a couple times in my years of being a DM.

[Donnadogsoth]

Morale for most NPCs; PCs continue to whenever their player decides to stop, barring other considerations (like a Barbarian's magic phobia)

How would you adjudge Living Steel's rules for PCs, whereby X amount of physical damage compared with Y knockout value yields a % chance of being incapacitated by shock and fear? Would you recommend ditching the knockout rules entirely for PCs, allowing them to stride across the battlefield ignoring all injuries until they were actually beheaded, paralysed, or collapsed from blood loss?

[LibraryOgre]

How would you adjudge Living Steel's rules for PCs, whereby X amount of physical damage compared with Y knockout value yields a % chance of being incapacitated by shock and fear? Would you recommend ditching the knockout rules entirely for PCs, allowing them to stride across the battlefield ignoring all injuries until they were actually beheaded, paralysed, or collapsed from blood loss?

Not being familiar with it, I'd have to look closer, but Hackmaster uses something similar for physical shock... take a large enough hit and you have a chance of being incapacitated by pain for a while. In effect, though, LS's rule doesn't sound that much different than 2e's Morale system, where being injured was one of many factors that could force or affect a morale check.

[Donnadogsoth]

Not being familiar with it, I'd have to look closer, but Hackmaster uses something similar for physical shock... take a large enough hit and you have a chance of being incapacitated by pain for a while. In effect, though, LS's rule doesn't sound that much different than 2e's Morale system, where being injured was one of many factors that could force or affect a morale check.

But, do you treat physical shock differently for PCs than psychological shock? You implied earlier your PCs were immune to morale checks. Shouldn't they be immune to pain and physical shock as well? Both psychological shock and physical shock are both shock, aren't they?

[JNAProductions]

But, do you treat physical shock differently for PCs than psychological shock? You implied earlier your PCs were immune to morale checks. Shouldn't they be immune to pain and physical shock as well? Both psychological shock and physical shock are both shock, aren't they?

One is body, the other is mind.

For players, the mind of a character is a lot more inviolate than the body. A silly distinction? Probably. But one that matters when it comes to the game.

[Donnadogsoth]

One is body, the other is mind.

For players, the mind of a character is a lot more inviolate than the body. A silly distinction? Probably. But one that matters when it comes to the game.

No, all is brain. How does a physical shock affect free will differently than a psychological shock, in terms of the brain?

[JNAProductions]

No, all is brain. How does a physical shock affect free will differently than a psychological shock, in terms of the brain?

Because one is a physical response to stimuli, the other is a mental one.

Again, the distinction is likely silly and pointless, except for the fact that it FEELS different for players. And feeling matters.

[Tanarii]

Generally speaking players decide whether their PC tries to run away, bargains, etc.

I like to have a formal party retreat rule in place so everyone knows retreat is valid option and the chances of success. I like to add this in any individual initiative based system. It's fairly easy to retreat if you have side-based initiative, but it can be quite hard or even lethal if it's individual and PCs and enemies are mixed up in the turn order with no easy way to delay actions in the system.

Usually it's something as simple as: if you have a effective line of combat (as opposed to all randomly mixed in melee), any player can call for a retreat, and if no one immediately objects, I skip a round as they all disengage and move back one turns worth of movement. Then I make a morale check (or just decide) to see if the enemies are going to pursue. If they do, I move the enemies forward to engage, and we just pick up the combat with the next creatures turn but in the new position.

I also encourage players think ahead tactically and have backup plans in place for when the crap hits the fan. Especially if the system has built in tools for it. Caltrops, smoke grenades/missiles, fog cloud or darkness spells. Disengage-type actions, or (from D&D 5e) good use of Dodge, Dash and cover. Stuff like that.

[Jay R]

I tend to have the NPC enemies surrender or flee when the battle is no longer in doubt, and I'm bored with running the mechanics of combat. Since that's about when the players get bored, it works out pretty well.

[LibraryOgre]

But, do you treat physical shock differently for PCs than psychological shock? You implied earlier your PCs were immune to morale checks. Shouldn't they be immune to pain and physical shock as well? Both psychological shock and physical shock are both shock, aren't they?

PCs are usually immune to morale checks in the game in part because that's how it is... they get to be crazy brave, because they are controlled by extradimensional beings who do not necessarily care for about their survival. The only exceptions are willingly accepted limitations on those extradimensional beings control... magic spells, or "quirks" and "flaws" that the extradimensional being created them with.

In short? PCs are largely immune to Morale checks because they are PCs. The player makes decisions for them. NPCs, however, frequently get decisions like that made for them by the dice, because the dice are less partial than the GM, who might pull or lean in to punches unfairly... or might simply want a way to adjudicate without having to get into the mind of every kobold.

[Tanarii]

PCs are usually immune to morale checks in the game in part because that's how it is... they get to be crazy brave, because they are controlled by extradimensional beings who do not necessarily care for about their survival. The only exceptions are willingly accepted limitations on those extradimensional beings control... magic spells, or "quirks" and "flaws" that the extradimensional being created them with.Not every game runs with that assumption. Many games have Horror or Pinning or some other kind of (effectively) morale check that PCs have to make under unusual or even fairly common circumstances. Because actually inspiring the level of fear or bravery that a character may be feeling in a player is quite hard. So sometimes dice can be used to do the mediating / translating between player and the imaginary character.

[LibraryOgre]

Not every game runs with that assumption. Many games have Horror or Pinning or some other kind of (effectively) morale check that PCs have to make under unusual or even fairly common circumstances. Because actually inspiring the level of fear or bravery that a character may be feeling in a player is quite hard. So sometimes dice can be used to do the mediating / translating between player and the imaginary character.

I agree, but Donnadogsoth wanted clarification that PCs were treated differently than NPCs in this case, and the whys of it... which boil down to "They're PCs, they get to do what the player wants."

[tensai_oni]

This thread's getting muddled. Characters getting temporarily shocked or intimidated by whatever occurs on the battlefield is not the same as them willingly giving up the fight. Regarding how to stat up the former, I am a fan of Legend of Wulin's conditions. They are very versatile and allow for a psychological effect to affect a player character without taking agency from the player. It just means their actions will be so much less effective if they play into the condition's requirements.

As for the original question, combats don't break out for no reason. The parties in an encounter always want something, have a goal in mind - and a fight breaks out because one or more of the parties present decided the best way to achieve that goal is to murder the crap out of the other. A good GM knows what the NPCs are after (and it's usually something very simple like "get rich by stealing from the travellers" or "kill the living ones who intrude in the crypt"), so it's easy to judge when that goal becomes less important than fleeing for your life. Of course the answer may be "never". Such is life.

[Tanarii]

I agree, but Donnadogsoth wanted clarification that PCs were treated differently than NPCs in this case, and the whys of it... which boil down to "They're PCs, they get to do what the player wants."
Oh yeah my bad. Classic case of not following the chain of comments & responses properly. :smallredface:

[dps]

Let me join in the chorus of "It's up to the player when a PC gives up (and whether the character gives up by surrendering or by trying to flee, or even by trying to arrange a cease-fire/parlay, or playing dead, or some other means).

And NPCs give up by DM fiat. A good DM will take into account the NPC's motivation for fighting in the first place, and allow some NPCs to be braver or more fool-hardy than others.

[Psikerlord]

I like to add this in any individual initiative based system. It's fairly easy to retreat if you have side-based initiative, but it can be quite hard or even lethal if it's individual and PCs and enemies are mixed up in the turn order with no easy way to delay actions in the system.

Usually it's something as simple as: if you have a effective line of combat (as opposed to all randomly mixed in melee), any player can call for a retreat, and if no one immediately objects, I skip a round as they all disengage and move back one turns worth of movement. Then I make a morale check (or just decide) to see if the enemies are going to pursue. If they do, I move the enemies forward to engage, and we just pick up the combat with the next creatures turn but in the new position.

I also encourage players think ahead tactically and have backup plans in place for when the crap hits the fan. Especially if the system has built in tools for it. Caltrops, smoke grenades/missiles, fog cloud or darkness spells. Disengage-type actions, or (from D&D 5e) good use of Dodge, Dash and cover. Stuff like that.

Yeah I like this a lot and have to confess I had always thought about retreat using mixed initiative. But this post highlights for me that side initiative is a different kettle of fish, and works better for retreat. I'd never considered that before!

[RazorChain]

Hit points could do this job, instead of also uneasily modeling physical injuries. If I were to use hit points I would have them represent resolve, not capacity for injury. Wounds I would deal with separately.

Living Steel compares wounds with the character's combat skill and courage under fire to see whether he or she becomes useless. I have expanded this to include mental shocks like seeing a giant spider, entering a haunted crypt or even wandering away from one's dark ages village for the first time.

How do you determine whether or not a PC or NPC either cowers in shock, surrenders, or flees? Do you combine the injury and morale aspects of the matter into a single subsystem like D&D or Palladium's hit points, or do you separate wound from morale issues, like Living Steel?

(I am aware that at least some versions of D&D have a morale system, but I do not remember how it worked, and have no way to immediately check.)


NPC's it's just based on my whim. Thugs will flee when they know the PC's are competent, a loyal soldier who is bodyguarding his lord might fight to the death.

The PC's decide when they surrender or run. Unless of course they get taken out in a fight. The system I'm running now is Gurps which uses HP but you can still get crippling injuries, knockdowns, knockouts and stunning blows. Fights often end with one good blow that stuns you, now you have penalties to your defenses and can't attack for a round and your opponent will press the advantage and try to finish you.

If you take enough damage you'll die, get knocked unconscious or incapacitated and bleed to death. I'll let the system govern when people can't fight anymore because of injuries and the PC's can govern their mental fortitude on if they want to fight to the death or not.

[Jay R]

Let me join in the chorus of "It's up to the player when a PC gives up (and whether the character gives up by surrendering or by trying to flee, or even by trying to arrange a cease-fire/parlay, or playing dead, or some other means).

With the exception of certain spell effects, of course - fear, domination, hideous laughter, etc. The player is in charge of what the PC attempts to do, not whether or not the attempt is successful.


And NPCs give up by DM fiat. A good DM will take into account the NPC's motivation for fighting in the first place, and allow some NPCs to be braver or more fool-hardy than others.

Also, take into account how interesting the battle is. When it gets boring, and the outcome seems clear, my NPCs tend to flee or surrender.