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Runa
2007-08-28, 03:12 PM
...needless to say, a quirky character. This is what I'm workin' on for our next game, which is just over a week from now. We're experimenting with doing a gestalt game, for the record, so it's not a Bard that multiclasses, just a (female) Drow Bard who's also a Paladin :P

Paladin of Freedom, that is (CG variant version of the Paladin). Who worships Elistrae.

If you examine some of the ol' details, it actually fits oddly well. Thematically it works, since Elistrae's a CG Drow goddess who's very... pro-music, I guess is a good way to put it.

Being a Drow gives me an easy way to explain how I worship a Drow goddess, and also gives me a Cha bonus to boot, which will help me in both my Paladin and Bard roles, since both work better with a high Cha.

So yeah. A Drow Paladin, who worships a Good goddess that likes to dance naked in the moonlight, who fights to protect freedom... and sings while doing it.

This should be fun. :smallbiggrin:

Comments? Questions? Desire to tell me I'm rather strange?

-Runa

*...and yes, I do plan to at least eventually take that feat that allows me to not get blinded by the pretty bright light; I'm not quite that much of a newbie! :smallwink:

GimliFett
2007-08-28, 03:19 PM
Sounds interesting, and not in a bad way. :smallwink:

Just remember you'll have to worry about arcane spell failure if you're wearing medium or heavy armor (unless you take the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane). Other than that, I think they should complement each other fairly well. You might consider the Extra Music feat and the Bardic Music feats from Complete Adventurer: Chant of Fortitude, Ironskin Chant and Lyric Spell.

Solo
2007-08-28, 03:21 PM
We are Drow! Drow in tights!

de-trick
2007-08-28, 03:25 PM
as long as you stay away from becoming a ranger, getting 2 scimitars, and a puma

your good

The Mormegil
2007-08-28, 03:26 PM
In my opinion, there are two ways of being a Bard: either Searcher of the Song or Sublime Chord.

First way: go Dervish to gain the ability to move, a full attack and dance/sing while you do. I'd take Scout for hyper optimization.

Basically: TWF, smite, inspire courage and use a Searcher of the Song big blast in a single round. Counsels: PHBII has a Combat Dancer feat thing that's really good. And I suggest only dipping in Bard and stack Bard/Pally levels with the feat. Use other progression to get PrCs and bonus feats.

Secod Way: Nifty high level spellcasting is nice. I suggest Lyric Thaumaturge before entering SCh; also, after taking it you can choose between ECL 20 cosmic fire and a multiclassing Archmage/things. Take 2nd SCh level to gain the song of arcane might.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-28, 04:09 PM
You'll want the following feats:

Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn). +Cha mod to attack for a number of rounds equal to your Perform(Dance) ranks, fatigue for ten minutes afterward. It also meshes perfectly with the flavor of Eilistrae's priesthood.
Divine Might. +Cha mod to damage for a round, uses a Turn Undead attempt.
Divine Shield. +Cha mod to AC for Cha mod rounds, uses a Turn Undead attempt.

If you can do all of this while dual-wielding a one-handed weapon and a shield (Requires TWF+Improved Shield Bash, or Shield Specialization+Improved Shield Bash+Agile Shield Fighter), even better. You're probably too feat-starved as a +2 LA nonhuman to manage that, though.

Basically, during several combats per day, you're adding your charisma modifier to attack, damage, and AC, and to your saves permanently with divine grace. It's a neat trick that only Bardadins can really pull off.

Also consider Devoted Performer. It's not necessary to your build like to a Bard/traditional Paladin, but stacking levels for Smiting (which is +Cha to your attack again, by the way) damage and Bardic Music uses is still useful.

Amiria
2007-08-28, 05:50 PM
*...and yes, I do plan to at least eventually take that feat that allows me to not get blinded by the pretty bright light; I'm not quite that much of a newbie! :smallwink:

Daylight Adaption isn't worth one of your precious few feat slots. Sure, it avoids being dazzled in bright light and blinded for one round when it comes suddenly. But you still take the extra damage from spells like Sunburst.

I'd say deal with it. Get a nice hooded cloak and some amazingly cool sunglasses. There are far better feats that can help you offensively or defensively.

tannish2
2007-08-28, 07:25 PM
1. why does noone ever play a neutral or evil drow?
2. that spelling of the word implies that you are, just admit it, and have fun with it
3. looks like an interesting character, but ya, unless your drowning in extra feats, some cool sunglasses a nocturnal lifestyle or a nice hood work almost as well, and dont cost a feat
4. if its not a gestalt character then there might be some problems with multiclassing...

Fax Celestis
2007-08-28, 07:35 PM
Might I suggest my rebalanced Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551), instead of the questionable Paladin of Freedom? You'll still be able to be CG, but you'll also be able to better define your personal code.

tannish2
2007-08-28, 07:46 PM
rebalanced paladin looks a bit stricter, like free exalted vow feats, which would be excelent for a lawful paladin but for CG paladin the paladin of freedom variant or holy liberator presteige class are the best choices, because they fit the alignment

Runa
2007-08-28, 07:50 PM
1. why does noone ever play a neutral or evil drow?

I wanted to try out Paladin of Freedom, which requires a CG alignment, I wanted an unusual but fun build so picked Bard, etc.

A Neutral drow might be fun though.

As for the evil alignment - exactly how many parties go evil? :P



2. that spelling of the word implies that you are, just admit it, and have fun with it

...?



3. looks like an interesting character, but ya, unless your drowning in extra feats, some cool sunglasses a nocturnal lifestyle or a nice hood work almost as well, and dont cost a feat

Thanks for the advice.



4. if its not a gestalt character then there might be some problems with multiclassing...

It is indeed gestalt. :)

In fact, the whole reason I picked the Bard/Paladin thing was other people in the group wanted to try gestalt, and the DM said, rightly, that it would be unbalanced if only one or two people were gestalt so we all ended up deciding to go gestalt. Then of course, I wanted to come up with the most amusingly quirky gestalt combo I could think of. I pretty much started from "Bard/Something" and went from there. ;) (I've always wanted to play a Bard, for some reason)

-Runa

Krellen
2007-08-28, 10:53 PM
I like the idea of a Bard/Paladin of Freedom, though I think a Bard/Cleric probably fits Elistraee's clergy better (in a Gestalt world, anyway).

tannish2
2007-08-28, 11:47 PM
hey for quirky... paladin/paladin of slaughter! or not

and evil characters are funnest when the whole party isnt evil........ really a questionably neutral character works well there too... havent you ever read OOTS? belkar adds to the fun... and it works like that in any REAL campaign as well... in a FR campaign im in a party that had a paladin of tyr a neutral cleric (well actually mystic theurge) of mask, and the rest of the party pretty much balanced at true neutral. good campaign, as long as the DM is fine not having every single event be about random encounters or a pre-written story its good. interparty conflict smash... i mean good.

but if you want to play a drow, i think you have to be good aligned... otherwise the gaming gods eat your soul

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-28, 11:54 PM
A good drow of Elistrae is perfectly legitimate and encouraged within the setting. The proposed build works really well for warrior priestesses who dance as part of their ritual, you're just more warrior and less priestess.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-29, 02:09 AM
Just a note, I would go either Bard/Seeker of Song//Paladin of Freedom or Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge/Sublime Chord//Paladin of Freedom.

Actually, if it were me, I'd go with:
Bard//Drow (until your LA is gone)
Bard//PoF (until you can be a LT)
LT//PoF (until level 10)
SC//PoF

But that's just me.

Also, have you heard of the Marshall class. It would have some pretty good synnergy with the bard class, if I remember correctly.

tannish2
2007-08-29, 01:39 PM
i think it specifically states that marshal things dont stack with bard things... not completely sure though

Talya
2007-08-29, 03:41 PM
Eilistraee is one of my favorite FR deities.

Moff Chumley
2007-08-29, 03:56 PM
A shot in the dark, but doesn't making a fun build more important than a good build when the subject matter is Drow Bard/Paladin? I'll assume so. For the daylight adaptation, go nocturnal. More fitting for a follower of Eillistree. Also, Dervish would be a cool adition to this build, but be sure to house rule in somethin replacing the twf with Bastard Sword wielding. Harper might make an interesting adition to this build, as would a modified Foluchan Lyricist. Hey, that reminds me, druid might also be fun to slip in there in place of bard for a little bit.

tannish2
2007-08-29, 05:28 PM
if dervish is used (one of my favorite presteige classes, movement mastery is good, and movement mastery lets you preform with a full attack which would probably make this character functional) please... ask your DM to make it longsword or peircing weapons and rapier(or maybe deitys favored weapon.. which im too lazy to look up right now, ...... so the cliche police and WOTC dont eat your soul)

Talya
2007-08-29, 05:37 PM
ask your DM to make it longsword or peircing weapons and rapier(or maybe deitys favored weapon.. which im too lazy to look up right now, ......

Bastard Sword. She should two-hand it, not dual weild. It functions with Dervish, it's slashing, it's just not finessable.

Talya
2007-08-29, 05:41 PM
Oh, and with Eilistraeen focuses on dancing, Bastard-sword Dervish is BEAUTIFUL for this character. The Champions of Valor Eilistraeen substitution levels are for fighter, unfortunately, but they are called "Darksong Knights," and to give you an idea o fthe flavor, include such abilities as:
Dancing Feint - User perform (dance) to feint in combat instead of bluff
Combat Dancing - A Darksong Knight with at least 5 ranks in perform (dance) gains a +2 dodge bonus against attacks of opportunity. If she uses spring attack, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus on the attack roll.

You can see the flavor fits well. I'd try to get the darksong knight substitution levels adapted to your paladin class instead of fighter.

The Mormegil
2007-08-30, 01:27 PM
Hmmm... Gestalt changes things alot. Depending on how much strong you weant it you could decide to go Scout/Ranger/Dervish or not.
feats ARE a problem, so I'd recommand taking the Holy Warrior Paladin variant (gives up spellcasting for bonus feats, CCh) and take 5 levels of paladin.
I'd play:
Drow (+2) Bard 1/Scout 4/Ranger +3/Searcher of the Song 10//Paladin 5/Ranger 2/Dervish 10/Ranger +1/Fighter 2
TWF and does LOTS of things in a round.
Taking both Holy Warrior and Natural Warrior (same for Ranger) you have 7 bonus feats, skirmish is at +5d6/+4 (with Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter), you have godly songs [well, dances] and do lots of attacks in a round.
I recommand Battle Dancer feat (PHBII) because it's practically Melee Weapon Mastery for you. I wouldn't say no to Devoted Entertainer for the bardic music stack (a lot better than Extra Music).
The only feedback is, you don't cast. Except for a few dancing lights and prestidigitations...

Remind: in a round you
-move at your speed (gaining benefits from skirmish, dervish dance, feats etc.)
-make full attack (8ish attacks that deals +5d6 damage plus smites bonuses)
-sing or dance mantaining concentration on two musics at the same time
-activate Searcher of the Song's special abilities to deal a bunch of d6 extra damages (or teleport away if needed, or healing yourself better than a cleric does)
-fight with your mount and animal companions

Runa
2007-08-31, 01:00 PM
Wow, so much response! This'll take a few minutes to respond to, methinks. Let's see if I can address as much as I can.


Just remember you'll have to worry about arcane spell failure if you're wearing medium or heavy armor (unless you take the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane). Other than that, I think they should complement each other fairly well. You might consider the Extra Music feat and the Bardic Music feats from Complete Adventurer: Chant of Fortitude, Ironskin Chant and Lyric Spell.

Good point. Armor will be a slight concern I suppose. I think we have a copy of Complete Adventurer and such between us somewhere, I'll have to look through them.


In my opinion, there are two ways of being a Bard: either Searcher of the Song or Sublime Chord.

First way: go Dervish to gain the ability to move, a full attack and dance/sing while you do. I'd take Scout for hyper optimization.

I'm a little confused on the Dervish thing that people keep suggesting, but I gather it's a "whirling dervish"-inspired dance-heavy... thing... that helps with movement stuff (dodges, multitasking music and attacks, etc.), that you can class to when you level? (Sorry for my lack of coherent sentence-making, I'm a little sleepy today)

Sometimes I forget just how immense the D&D universe is, and I realize I'm still such a newb. :smallbiggrin:



Basically: TWF, smite, inspire courage and use a Searcher of the Song big blast in a single round. Counsels: PHBII has a Combat Dancer feat thing that's really good. And I suggest only dipping in Bard and stack Bard/Pally levels with the feat. Use other progression to get PrCs and bonus feats.

I'm guessing that last two sentences were written before you realized it was gestalt. :) Still, some of the other stuff in this paragraph looks handy. I'm positive we have a PHBII around somewhere, I'll have a look at that feat. Sidenote, though - what's TWF stand for again?



Secod Way: Nifty high level spellcasting is nice. I suggest Lyric Thaumaturge before entering SCh; also, after taking it you can choose between ECL 20 cosmic fire and a multiclassing Archmage/things. Take 2nd SCh level to gain the song of arcane might.

Hmm, interesting.


Hmmm... Gestalt changes things alot. Depending on how much strong you weant it you could decide to go Scout/Ranger/Dervish or not.
feats ARE a problem, so I'd recommand taking the Holy Warrior Paladin variant (gives up spellcasting for bonus feats, CCh) and take 5 levels of paladin.
I'd play:
Drow (+2) Bard 1/Scout 4/Ranger +3/Searcher of the Song 10//Paladin 5/Ranger 2/Dervish 10/Ranger +1/Fighter 2
TWF and does LOTS of things in a round.
Taking both Holy Warrior and Natural Warrior (same for Ranger) you have 7 bonus feats, skirmish is at +5d6/+4 (with Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter), you have godly songs [well, dances] and do lots of attacks in a round.
I recommand Battle Dancer feat (PHBII) because it's practically Melee Weapon Mastery for you. I wouldn't say no to Devoted Entertainer for the bardic music stack (a lot better than Extra Music).
The only feedback is, you don't cast. Except for a few dancing lights and prestidigitations...

Remind: in a round you
-move at your speed (gaining benefits from skirmish, dervish dance, feats etc.)
-make full attack (8ish attacks that deals +5d6 damage plus smites bonuses)
-sing or dance mantaining concentration on two musics at the same time
-activate Searcher of the Song's special abilities to deal a bunch of d6 extra damages (or teleport away if needed, or healing yourself better than a cleric does)
-fight with your mount and animal companions


Either I'm tired, or I'm still not up on the lingo enough to translate all of that. o.O

Although I gathered enough to realize I should probably mention what the others in the group are probably doing.

The group is REALLY heavy on beat-'em-characters. I can't remember if there's many casters, but there's apparently one guy willing to class cleric on one half of his build, I think one other person doing Bard/Something supposedly (or at least, somebody said they might) but I could swear we have two rangers in the party and at least one fighter.

For the record, the PCs will be a group of it looks like 6, possibly 7. The majority, regardless of exactly what they're doing, seems to lean towards characters that'll be, um, beat'em ups of some kind. So, yeah. Perhaps "toughness" not so big a deal for my character, even though it'd be handy. :P

The current group is basically half newer players to the group (including at least a couple who've never or almost never played, I think), half our old group. Our old group usually did dungeon crawls and the like, but we're all sick of that, so the DM's just going to come up with an actual story himself - it's his first time DMing, but he's been playing for a few months under our old DM (who is now a PC in the new game), and picked up on certain things that, um, don't really "work" (like he'll actually look at our character sheets, for instance, and he's not using a ready made WotC adventure, like our old DM always ended up doing because he didn't have time between work and school to come up with completely new stuff).

Anyway, the DM for the upcoming adventure has said he'll definitely tailor it to the group anyway, and he's more concerned with everyone having fun than everybody just beating up monsters for treasure. :P Not that there won't be some of that too, but you know.

Alas, I am at work at the moment and I must do pricing on a seperate computer (siiiiiigh), so I'll have to respond to some of the other posts a little later.

-Runa

The Mormegil
2007-08-31, 02:21 PM
Me again. I explained every shorting I could find out, I can see you're still not attuned to Forum Slang [meh, I wasn't either! :smallwink: ].
Thought this might help you understanding what others have said.




I'm a little confused on the Dervish thing that people keep suggesting, but I gather it's a "whirling dervish"-inspired dance-heavy... thing... that helps with movement stuff (dodges, multitasking music and attacks, etc.), that you can class to when you level? (Sorry for my lack of coherent sentence-making, I'm a little sleepy today)



Okay, Dervish is a Prestige Class [PrC] from Complete Warrior [CW].
It requires Base Attack Bonus (Bab) +7, so you can enter it at Effective Class Level [ECL] 8. It gives you the Dervish Dance class feature that is a rank-based-duration-dance that allows you to move at your speed and do full attack in the same round. You can even sing or dance while doing it. And at level 10 you get the ability to double your attacks 1/day! Check the book for other things.



Sometimes I forget just how immense the D&D universe is, and I realize I'm still such a newb. :smallbiggrin:

I'm guessing that last two sentences were written before you realized it was gestalt. :) Still, some of the other stuff in this paragraph looks handy. I'm positive we have a PHBII around somewhere, I'll have a look at that feat. Sidenote, though - what's TWF stand for again?


It's Two Weapon Fighting.




Either I'm tired, or I'm still not up on the lingo enough to translate all of that. o.O

Although I gathered enough to realize I should probably mention what the others in the group are probably doing.

The group is REALLY heavy on beat-'em-characters. I can't remember if there's many casters, but there's apparently one guy willing to class cleric on one half of his build, I think one other person doing Bard/Something supposedly (or at least, somebody said they might) but I could swear we have two rangers in the party and at least one fighter.

For the record, the PCs will be a group of it looks like 6, possibly 7. The majority, regardless of exactly what they're doing, seems to lean towards characters that'll be, um, beat'em ups of some kind. So, yeah. Perhaps "toughness" not so big a deal for my character, even though it'd be handy. :P

The current group is basically half newer players to the group (including at least a couple who've never or almost never played, I think), half our old group. Our old group usually did dungeon crawls and the like, but we're all sick of that, so the DM's just going to come up with an actual story himself - it's his first time DMing, but he's been playing for a few months under our old DM (who is now a PC in the new game), and picked up on certain things that, um, don't really "work" (like he'll actually look at our character sheets, for instance, and he's not using a ready made WotC adventure, like our old DM always ended up doing because he didn't have time between work and school to come up with completely new stuff).

Anyway, the DM for the upcoming adventure has said he'll definitely tailor it to the group anyway, and he's more concerned with everyone having fun than everybody just beating up monsters for treasure. :P Not that there won't be some of that too, but you know.

Alas, I am at work at the moment and I must do pricing on a seperate computer (siiiiiigh), so I'll have to respond to some of the other posts a little later.

-Runa

I understand what you need is versatility (even though you have another Bard), that you lack an arcane caster (therefore I would lean toward Sublime Chord), that you haven't got enough space to manoeuvre around the enemy (too much melee, and that means no to dervish, 'cause he doesn't get to make attacks if he doesn't move enough), that you might need to have a second rank healer (bard spell list might be helped with the Arcane Disciple (Healing) feat, from Complete divine (CD), and you can search for Metamagic Song, in Races of Dragons (RoD), to get them Quickened, but you could also use the Searcher of the Song healing song) and that you don't really need to be effective in melee fighting as I thought (but you may want it, anyway).


That means, I will post below the spellcaster/supporter version of what I thought.

Drow (+2) Bard +4/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2/Lyric Thaumaturge +6/Archmage 2//Bard 2/Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Searcher of the Song 6/Exemplar 1/Bard +3

Hmmm... on second thought, no, don't do this. It is a quite good spellcaster and a singer/dancer bard, but he is a poor fighter and he's not what you asked for, really.

Let's try another way 'round: if you don't mind going with Tome of Battle, you might be Paladin and Crusader. You didn't ask for toughness, that's true, but he's a good fighter and has healing capacities that support those of the cleric. And stack well with bard, and has access to White Raven (that is expecially good since you have many party members).

Now, let's see:
Drow (+2) Bard 7/Jade Phoenix Mage +1/Searcher of the Song 6/Jade Phoenix Mage +4//Crusader 1/Paladin 4/Fighter 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Fighter +1/Jade Phoenix Mage +3/Master of the Nine 5/Crusader +3/Paladin +1

Has decent Bab, good inspire courage (take Music of the Heart, Eberron), Manoeuvres from many disciples (focus on White Raven to get War Master's Charge, deadly charging group!), good feats, can expend (useless)bardic spell slots to gain (useful) +4 on attack roll +Xd10 damages, cumulable with smite, can use his bardic music abilities in tons of ways (expecially if you take Lyric Spell, Ironskin Chant, Chord of distraction, Metamagic Song and Quickened Spell and maaaany Extra Music).
I think the other has more bare power, while this counts more on flexibility and party gaming.

Your choice!

Runa
2007-08-31, 03:36 PM
A good drow of Elistrae is perfectly legitimate and encouraged within the setting. The proposed build works really well for warrior priestesses who dance as part of their ritual, you're just more warrior and less priestess.

Exactly. Quirky, but it works thematically and such. :D I think that's why it appeals to me so much.


A shot in the dark, but doesn't making a fun build more important than a good build when the subject matter is Drow Bard/Paladin? I'll assume so. For the daylight adaptation, go nocturnal. More fitting for a follower of Eillistree. Also, Dervish would be a cool adition to this build, but be sure to house rule in somethin replacing the twf with Bastard Sword wielding. Harper might make an interesting adition to this build, as would a modified Foluchan Lyricist. Hey, that reminds me, druid might also be fun to slip in there in place of bard for a little bit.

OH! TWF = Two Weapon Fighting! OK, that makes some of this thread make a whole lot more sense now. :smallbiggrin:

And yes, I'm mostly concerned with making it "fun". ;) Especially since the DM is determined to have this campaign be more than a series of dungeon crawls. That, and having picked classes to start with that are high-Cha, and picked a race that is Cha-increasing, and having picked the deity I did, etc., I basically decided the character isn't going to be one of those angsty-wangsty ones, she's going to be a cheerful, goofy character who likes to joke around, loves to dance and sing and be social and all, and happens to go out and try to battle evil and oppression a lot... and is more than fine with looking slightly silly in battle (as Elan of the OotS puts it - what could be sillier than singing in battle the way D&D Bards do?).

Granted, this is partly me associating "high charisma" with "fun-loving, jokey and social" (which describes all of the "charismatic" people I've ever met in real life), and partly because I wanted to explore a completely different end of the Paladin spectrum from our first game, where I had played a much more serious, more traditional LG Paladin - from a race almost universally not LG-aligned and a family not LG-aligned, and so basically she had an angsty "never fit in with original family and social circle"/"overcoming the heritage"/"doing the right thing"/"a god showed up and said 'hey, you totally should be good and go out and do good things' and she needless to say listened" thing going on. Even after her god showed up again and basically told her she should really kinda loosen up and be a little more open-minded than she was allowing herself to be, she struggled with it. It practically took a mind-control spell (literally!) just to cause her to question the way she was interpreting the Lawful end of her alignment, and even after she was about to to go Paladin of Freedom (that campaign ended before I actually got the chance to do this, though I planned it as part of her development from pretty early), she was quite serious-minded.

...but this one, I think I just wanna have her be much more easygoing and such, even while she's still going out and helping people. Something different, you know? A little more filled with the joie de vive or however the heck you spell it (I took Spanish and Japanese, so I can't consistently spell French for the life of me). 'Course her parents were (I've worked this much out so far at least) devoted Elistrae-worshipers too, and what with that goddess being CG... yeah, you can see how she could end up more like that than angsty!Paladin. :smallwink: I think there's a tendency to see the term "Paladin" and associate with very serious characters, which is probably why I did my first character the way I did. This should be a refreshing change of pace. :)

(Not that I didn't have a character in between, I did, it was a Rogue, but I didn't get much time to develop that one, and she was kind of in between in personality, what little I got to give her anyway. Although, granted, less scrupulous...)





ask your DM to make it longsword or peircing weapons and rapier(or maybe deitys favored weapon.. which im too lazy to look up right now, ......
Bastard Sword. She should two-hand it, not dual weild. It functions with Dervish, it's slashing, it's just not finessable.


Oh, and with Eilistraeen focuses on dancing, Bastard-sword Dervish is BEAUTIFUL for this character. The Champions of Valor Eilistraeen substitution levels are for fighter, unfortunately, but they are called "Darksong Knights," and to give you an idea o fthe flavor, include such abilities as:
Dancing Feint - User perform (dance) to feint in combat instead of bluff
Combat Dancing - A Darksong Knight with at least 5 ranks in perform (dance) gains a +2 dodge bonus against attacks of opportunity. If she uses spring attack, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus on the attack roll.

You can see the flavor fits well. I'd try to get the darksong knight substitution levels adapted to your paladin class instead of fighter.



Me again. I explained every shorting I could find out, I can see you're still not attuned to Forum Slang [meh, I wasn't either! ].
Thought this might help you understanding what others have said.



I'm a little confused on the Dervish thing that people keep suggesting, but I gather it's a "whirling dervish"-inspired dance-heavy... thing... that helps with movement stuff (dodges, multitasking music and attacks, etc.), that you can class to when you level? (Sorry for my lack of coherent sentence-making, I'm a little sleepy today)
Okay, Dervish is a Prestige Class [PrC] from Complete Warrior [CW].
It requires Base Attack Bonus (Bab) +7, so you can enter it at Effective Class Level [ECL] 8. It gives you the Dervish Dance class feature that is a rank-based-duration-dance that allows you to move at your speed and do full attack in the same round. You can even sing or dance while doing it. And at level 10 you get the ability to double your attacks 1/day! Check the book for other things.

Ah! Prestige Class, I should have guessed. >.<

And yes, that Dervish PrC sounds great for what I'm doing. :smallbiggrin: Assuming we keep going past ECL 8, I'll probably do that. Assuming we keep ending up in battles where I have room. :P

The DM for this adventure's pretty easygoing and willing to house-rule and group-tailor some things, so I might be able to convince him to allow those "fighter" levels for my Pal character, especially if I mention a potential scenario like this:

DM: The orc gets an attack of opportunity on you...
Me: I pirouette gracefully out of the waaaay... maybe...?
*rolls a 1*
Me: Correction - I attempt to pirouette gracefully out of the way, and instead hit the wall, having forgotten it was there. I clonk my head on the wall and yelp - "Ow! Ah! No! That wasn't supposed to happen!" as the orc attacks me...

...or something. (Actually, something about the way that's worded makes me think I remembered something about combat steps wrong... or did I? Gah! Did I mention it's been like about two or three months since we last played? :smalltongue: )

Eh, it's worth asking, anyway, right? :smallwink:

Bastard sword, though, eh? I'll keep that in mind.


I like the idea of a Bard/Paladin of Freedom, though I think a Bard/Cleric probably fits Elistraee's clergy better (in a Gestalt world, anyway).

Possibly, but PoF seems pretty fun to play. :)



I understand what you need is versatility (even though you have another Bard), that you lack an arcane caster (therefore I would lean toward Sublime Chord), that you haven't got enough space to manoeuvre around the enemy (too much melee, and that means no to dervish, 'cause he doesn't get to make attacks if he doesn't move enough), that you might need to have a second rank healer (bard spell list might be helped with the Arcane Disciple (Healing) feat, from Complete divine (CD), and you can search for Metamagic Song, in Races of Dragons (RoD), to get them Quickened, but you could also use the Searcher of the Song healing song) and that you don't really need to be effective in melee fighting as I thought (but you may want it, anyway).


That means, I will post below the spellcaster/supporter version of what I thought.

Drow (+2) Bard +4/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2/Lyric Thaumaturge +6/Archmage 2//Bard 2/Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Searcher of the Song 6/Exemplar 1/Bard +3

Hmmm... on second thought, no, don't do this. It is a quite good spellcaster and a singer/dancer bard, but he is a poor fighter and he's not what you asked for, really.

Let's try another way 'round: if you don't mind going with Tome of Battle, you might be Paladin and Crusader. You didn't ask for toughness, that's true, but he's a good fighter and has healing capacities that support those of the cleric. And stack well with bard, and has access to White Raven (that is expecially good since you have many party members).

What's White Raven?



Now, let's see:
Drow (+2) Bard 7/Jade Phoenix Mage +1/Searcher of the Song 6/Jade Phoenix Mage +4//Crusader 1/Paladin 4/Fighter 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Fighter +1/Jade Phoenix Mage +3/Master of the Nine 5/Crusader +3/Paladin +1

Has decent Bab, good inspire courage (take Music of the Heart, Eberron), Manoeuvres from many disciples (focus on White Raven to get War Master's Charge, deadly charging group!), good feats, can expend (useless)bardic spell slots to gain (useful) +4 on attack roll +Xd10 damages, cumulable with smite, can use his bardic music abilities in tons of ways (expecially if you take Lyric Spell, Ironskin Chant, Chord of distraction, Metamagic Song and Quickened Spell and maaaany Extra Music).
I think the other has more bare power, while this counts more on flexibility and party gaming.

Your choice!

*head spins* :smalleek:


-Runa

Jannex
2007-08-31, 07:07 PM
Hi! :smallsmile: From the sound of things, I'm guessing you're probably not looking for a whole lot of super-Prestige-Class sourcebook-fu, so I'll keep my ideas based mostly in the base Bard and PoF classes. (I'll be honest, the Bard//Paladin gestalt combo has appealed to me for a while, though I was thinking more in a LG human Paladin of Bahamut direction--similar personality, though: easygoing, friendly, cheerful.)

If you're not focusing quite as much on the combat side of your character as the spellcasting side, I'd put your level adjustment in the Paladin column of your gestalt, and just go Bard for the first two levels. That way your spells advance faster (and because the Bard progression takes forever to advance, this is a very good thing). I'd stick with light armor, and adopt a Dex-based combat style, instead of doing the usual Paladin heavy-armor-bashy thing. A mithral chain shirt is only 1100gp, after all. The Bard's traditional rapier will serve you well here, if you can spare a feat for Weapon Finesse.

Your most important stat, as you probably already know, is Charisma. Jack it as high up as you possibly can with stat increases and magic items (at what level is your game starting? I think I missed that detail). If you're going to be the backup healer, a ridiculously high Charisma will boost your Paladin's 'Lay on Hands' ability (and, incidentally, raise your Bard spell save DCs). I don't know how important skill points are to you; I know that I personally tend to prioritize skills very highly, and so generally focus on Int, but that may not be something you're interested in. (You do have a nice skill list, though; I'd max out Charisma-based skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, and--obviously--Perform, some Knowledges, and a few other key ones like Spellcraft and Tumble. Mostly, whatever works for you and fits the character.)

So, it's sounding like Cha is your primary stat, followed by Dex (which, conveniently, are the stats your racial bonuses boost. Don't let that convince you they're "high enough," though--the sky's the limit!), and then either Wisdom, if you want to get some mileage out of your Paladin spells, or Int if you want to focus more on skill points. Con is probably a slightly higher priority than Strength, both for Hit Points and your Concentration score.

In general, I really like the concept. As I said, I've been toying with the idea of a Bard//Paladin gestalt combo for a while myself, and I'll confess to having a certain affection for drow. I think you'll have a lot of fun with her, regardless of the direction you take her build. :smallbiggrin:

Runa
2007-09-02, 12:50 AM
Hi! :smallsmile: From the sound of things, I'm guessing you're probably not looking for a whole lot of super-Prestige-Class sourcebook-fu, so I'll keep my ideas based mostly in the base Bard and PoF classes. (I'll be honest, the Bard//Paladin gestalt combo has appealed to me for a while, though I was thinking more in a LG human Paladin of Bahamut direction--similar personality, though: easygoing, friendly, cheerful.)

Hooboy yes. Especially since, I mean, it won't be until Tuesday that we apparently REALLY discuss it and some people are kinda indecisive on it, but so far it seems like about five people (out of seven) are doing characters that'll be good or decent at melee. Robert's apparently doing Cleric//some face-bashy thing that in combination will be kinda vicious (our DM, Ralph, pointed out that since clerics get both cure and inflict type spells... combine that with being able to stab or bludgeon something... yeah. Also, something about... what was it, duskblades?). So, we'll have a Cleric, which is good! Also, at least one guy's apparently doing Rogue in combination with something, though I may have misinterpreted something there.

That, and while PrCs always seem to sound fun, I rarely get around to doing them. Though I may do Sword Dancer, just because... I mean have you seen the prerequisites for that? You have to dance naked in the moonlight. Every night. For a month straight. :smallbiggrin: Bwaha! Awesomeness, especially for the potential hilarious awkward moments... see, most of us seem to be playing characters the same gender. I think there's only two women in the group, so... :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, I'm not as interested in PrCs, though I'm willing to take them into consideration.



If you're not focusing quite as much on the combat side of your character as the spellcasting side, I'd put your level adjustment in the Paladin column of your gestalt, and just go Bard for the first two levels.

Whoa, you can do that? *feels like a total newb now* I had no idea! Er... then again, I've never played Gestalt before, so... perhaps the newbieness is understandable. :smallwink:

I think under the circumstances, it's not going to be much like our original group's first game, where I was pretty much the tank character, out of only two or three (in a total of five PCs) that tended to do combat damage. Plenty of people in the party will apparently be fully capable of melee, so I may just do exactly what you suggest here.



That way your spells advance faster (and because the Bard progression takes forever to advance, this is a very good thing). I'd stick with light armor, and adopt a Dex-based combat style, instead of doing the usual Paladin heavy-armor-bashy thing. A mithral chain shirt is only 1100gp, after all. The Bard's traditional rapier will serve you well here, if you can spare a feat for Weapon Finesse.

That is so weird. I was just thinking of going with studded leather armor! Bards do better in lighter armor, after all, and I won't need to be a tank on the front lines anyway.



Your most important stat, as you probably already know, is Charisma. Jack it as high up as you possibly can with stat increases and magic items (at what level is your game starting? I think I missed that detail).

You didn't miss it, because I forgot to list it. Here's the skinny on the plan thus far (this may change, aside from what level we're starting at anyway, but so far this has been pretty consistent):

We're starting at first level. Apparently, the other characters won't know all each other, but they'll have all met me (for various reasons, though my character will probably have traveled a lot anyway, and what with being outgoing and all, it seems plausible enough), and will be on the way to meet me when the first adventure starts. I've been told there's a very good chance I'll be given a... for lack of a better term, cannon fodder character to start with, a loveable, endearing little miss who will stick with the other characters on their adventure, only to get brutally murdered by the soon-recurring villain. Or not. Ralph seems to be wavering on this part, partly because it's a bit of work, really. :P

But, two things are for sure: we're starting at first level to begin with, and Ralph is hugely reluctant to go into the Epic level campaigns (with a 7-member party, you can kinda see why I think). So, think low-level.



If you're going to be the backup healer, a ridiculously high Charisma will boost your Paladin's 'Lay on Hands' ability (and, incidentally, raise your Bard spell save DCs). I don't know how important skill points are to you; I know that I personally tend to prioritize skills very highly, and so generally focus on Int, but that may not be something you're interested in. (You do have a nice skill list, though; I'd max out Charisma-based skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, and--obviously--Perform, some Knowledges, and a few other key ones like Spellcraft and Tumble. Mostly, whatever works for you and fits the character.)


It sounds like I'll end up at least partly being a backup healer, with only one confirmed Cleric in the party. Not that I'm underestimating the use of course; I still remember how often I had to use Lay On Hands in our first game, especially during the brief time we didn't have a Cleric, or anytime she got knocked out!

I like skill points, for some reason. I guess because it's one of those things that you really have a choice in adjusting, and it helps focus what you're doing with the character and all. I hadn't thought about where my skill points other than Perform were going (partly because we aren't officially rolling characters until Tuesday or Wednesday), but Diplomacy seems an obvious one to me certainly, especially given my character's intended personality (and the size of the party!) means she may well have to call on it often. I can see use for most or all of the others you list, too.



So, it's sounding like Cha is your primary stat, followed by Dex (which, conveniently, are the stats your racial bonuses boost. Don't let that convince you they're "high enough," though--the sky's the limit!),

Makes me think that maybe the developers were thinking in terms of crunch as much as "fluff" when they made Elistraee a drow goddess, considering how many performers are supposed to be in the ranks of her worshipers, heh.



and then either Wisdom, if you want to get some mileage out of your Paladin spells, or Int if you want to focus more on skill points. Con is probably a slightly higher priority than Strength, both for Hit Points and your Concentration score.

Note to self: print out this page first chance I get!

I think the Bardic end comes first (going by the logical thematic and backstory basics; she would probably have learned music and dance from a very young age, and not decided to actively fight against oppression and such until a little later anyway, methinks), especially with existing casters and melee pros and such in the party, so I'll probably make Int my third, followed by Wis and Con.



In general, I really like the concept. As I said, I've been toying with the idea of a Bard//Paladin gestalt combo for a while myself, and I'll confess to having a certain affection for drow. I think you'll have a lot of fun with her, regardless of the direction you take her build. :smallbiggrin:

I certainly hope to. :smallsmile:

Talya
2007-09-02, 02:51 AM
Dervish is very worth considering as a PrC for "Fluff" reasons for this character.

Let me quote a bit of the fluff description of the dervish "dance of death" ability they have:



Dervish Dance (Ex): A dervish can become a whirling dancer of death a certain number of times per day. While in this dervish dance, she can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and still move up to her speed. However, the dervish most move a minimum of 5 feet between each attack...the dervish is subject to attacks of opportunity while dancing, but may tumble normally as part of her move. If a dervish wields a slashing weapon while in a dervish dance, she gains a bonus on her attack and damage rolls.

Dervish dance duration is based on the perform (dance) skill. Do this weilding a bastardsword and it just screams Eilistraee.

Rad
2007-09-02, 03:31 AM
Since nobody mentioned it, anyone interested in playing a paladin should consider the feat Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) which allows you to actually use your paladin spells lowering their casting time from a standard action to a swift action. It has practically no fluff, so no reason not to take it if you have any spells that you might like to use. I second the divine feat that gives you Cha to damage; it's not like you have any other uses for turning undead anyway.

As for the ranks in diplomacy, the diplomacy rules, as written, are a sure way to disrupt a campaign since they turn any battle into a recruiting of personal followers for the bard. This means that usually, at some point, it will be house ruled or disregarded; talk with your DM and only get ranks in diplomacy if it is functional for whatever house rule will be applied. The giant has a nice rewrite for it in the gaming section.

Have fun playing!

Jannex
2007-09-02, 03:41 AM
Whoa, you can do that? *feels like a total newb now* I had no idea! Er... then again, I've never played Gestalt before, so... perhaps the newbieness is understandable. :smallwink:

It depends largely on how your particular DM wants gestalt and level-adjustment to interact; the way I've seen it handled is that level adjustment only takes up one of your gestalt columns; otherwise races with it get kind of screwed over. So, assuming that's how your DM approaches it, I'd recommend Bard for your free gestalt column until your level adjustment is done, and then putting your Paladin levels in the newly-freed column, yeah.


That is so weird. I was just thinking of going with studded leather armor! Bards do better in lighter armor, after all, and I won't need to be a tank on the front lines anyway.

Studded leather is good at low levels, but as soon as you can afford it, I highly recommend going for the mithral chain shirt. Because it's made of mithral, it counts as one step lighter (and is therefore light armor, meaning your Bard abilities like it), and it's the best armor bonus with a -0 armor check penalty (which is happy, if you like skills, or just hate having your mobility hindered).


You didn't miss it, because I forgot to list it. Here's the skinny on the plan thus far (this may change, aside from what level we're starting at anyway, but so far this has been pretty consistent):

We're starting at first level. Apparently, the other characters won't know all each other, but they'll have all met me (for various reasons, though my character will probably have traveled a lot anyway, and what with being outgoing and all, it seems plausible enough), and will be on the way to meet me when the first adventure starts. I've been told there's a very good chance I'll be given a... for lack of a better term, cannon fodder character to start with, a loveable, endearing little miss who will stick with the other characters on their adventure, only to get brutally murdered by the soon-recurring villain. Or not. Ralph seems to be wavering on this part, partly because it's a bit of work, really. :P

But, two things are for sure: we're starting at first level to begin with, and Ralph is hugely reluctant to go into the Epic level campaigns (with a 7-member party, you can kinda see why I think). So, think low-level.

Fair enough; that actually sounds like a pretty good idea for handling someone playing a character with level-adjustment, when the campaign starts at first level. That way, he'll presumably introduce your drow at around 3rd level or so, by which point you'll be Bard 3//Paladin 1 (+2 LA).


It sounds like I'll end up at least partly being a backup healer, with only one confirmed Cleric in the party. Not that I'm underestimating the use of course; I still remember how often I had to use Lay On Hands in our first game, especially during the brief time we didn't have a Cleric, or anytime she got knocked out!

If you're on backup healing detail, you'll probably want to choose one or two Cure spells for your Bard spells-known (or just invest in a wand or three of Cure Light Wounds), and then go nuts with the Lay On Hands. You get Paladin Level x Charisma Bonus per day of HP that you can heal, so you'll want to make that Charisma as ridiculous as humanly (or, in this case, elvenly) possible. That Charisma will be nice with your Divine Grace, too!


I like skill points, for some reason. I guess because it's one of those things that you really have a choice in adjusting, and it helps focus what you're doing with the character and all. I hadn't thought about where my skill points other than Perform were going (partly because we aren't officially rolling characters until Tuesday or Wednesday), but Diplomacy seems an obvious one to me certainly, especially given my character's intended personality (and the size of the party!) means she may well have to call on it often. I can see use for most or all of the others you list, too.

The great thing about skill points is that you never run out of uses per day; you can persuade people, or Tumble, or Know things, all day long if you want to. And if you think creatively, you can find all sorts of clever ways to solve problems solely, or primarily, with skills. And you're right; skills are one of the most customizable, personalizable parts of a D&D character.


I think the Bardic end comes first (going by the logical thematic and backstory basics; she would probably have learned music and dance from a very young age, and not decided to actively fight against oppression and such until a little later anyway, methinks), especially with existing casters and melee pros and such in the party, so I'll probably make Int my third, followed by Wis and Con.

Sounds like a plan! I hope you have fun with the character. :smallbiggrin:

Runa
2007-09-05, 10:36 AM
Dervish is very worth considering as a PrC for "Fluff" reasons for this character.

Let me quote a bit of the fluff description of the dervish "dance of death" ability they have:


Dervish Dance (Ex): A dervish can become a whirling dancer of death a certain number of times per day. While in this dervish dance, she can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and still move up to her speed. However, the dervish most move a minimum of 5 feet between each attack...the dervish is subject to attacks of opportunity while dancing, but may tumble normally as part of her move. If a dervish wields a slashing weapon while in a dervish dance, she gains a bonus on her attack and damage rolls.

Dervish dance duration is based on the perform (dance) skill. Do this weilding a bastardsword and it just screams Eilistraee.

True...



Since nobody mentioned it, anyone interested in playing a paladin should consider the feat Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) which allows you to actually use your paladin spells lowering their casting time from a standard action to a swift action. It has practically no fluff, so no reason not to take it if you have any spells that you might like to use. I second the divine feat that gives you Cha to damage; it's not like you have any other uses for turning undead anyway.

OK, that looks definitely like something I'm going to want to look into.



As for the ranks in diplomacy, the diplomacy rules, as written, are a sure way to disrupt a campaign since they turn any battle into a recruiting of personal followers for the bard. This means that usually, at some point, it will be house ruled or disregarded; talk with your DM and only get ranks in diplomacy if it is functional for whatever house rule will be applied. The giant has a nice rewrite for it in the gaming section.

Have fun playing!

...who on Earth would use Diplomacy in the middle of a battle? I was thinking of in-between stuff, like if I need to get information from somebody or (god forbid) get a fellow party member out of trouble or whatever. That's all our group has ever used it for. o.O





Whoa, you can do that? *feels like a total newb now* I had no idea! Er... then again, I've never played Gestalt before, so... perhaps the newbieness is understandable.
It depends largely on how your particular DM wants gestalt and level-adjustment to interact; the way I've seen it handled is that level adjustment only takes up one of your gestalt columns; otherwise races with it get kind of screwed over. So, assuming that's how your DM approaches it, I'd recommend Bard for your free gestalt column until your level adjustment is done, and then putting your Paladin levels in the newly-freed column, yeah.

I talked to him about it, and he said he didn't like the idea (he gave some very reasonable reasons, though I can't remember what they were), but that I could pay experience later to just get rid of each level adjustment (by which I mean, I have a level adjustment of 2, so I could do it twice to get rid of both).

I'm not the only one who's apparently playing races that probably have a leveal adjustment, so it probably won't be too big a deal.




That is so weird. I was just thinking of going with studded leather armor! Bards do better in lighter armor, after all, and I won't need to be a tank on the front lines anyway.
Studded leather is good at low levels, but as soon as you can afford it, I highly recommend going for the mithral chain shirt. Because it's made of mithral, it counts as one step lighter (and is therefore light armor, meaning your Bard abilities like it), and it's the best armor bonus with a -0 armor check penalty (which is happy, if you like skills, or just hate having your mobility hindered).

Sounds good. :)




You didn't miss it, because I forgot to list it. Here's the skinny on the plan thus far (this may change, aside from what level we're starting at anyway, but so far this has been pretty consistent):

We're starting at first level. Apparently, the other characters won't know all each other, but they'll have all met me (for various reasons, though my character will probably have traveled a lot anyway, and what with being outgoing and all, it seems plausible enough), and will be on the way to meet me when the first adventure starts. I've been told there's a very good chance I'll be given a... for lack of a better term, cannon fodder character to start with, a loveable, endearing little miss who will stick with the other characters on their adventure, only to get brutally murdered by the soon-recurring villain. Or not. Ralph seems to be wavering on this part, partly because it's a bit of work, really. :P

But, two things are for sure: we're starting at first level to begin with, and Ralph is hugely reluctant to go into the Epic level campaigns (with a 7-member party, you can kinda see why I think). So, think low-level.

Fair enough; that actually sounds like a pretty good idea for handling someone playing a character with level-adjustment, when the campaign starts at first level. That way, he'll presumably introduce your drow at around 3rd level or so, by which point you'll be Bard 3//Paladin 1 (+2 LA).

I'm not entirely sure what we're doing, really. Catherine's apparently not going to be able to make it next week, for one, and... just... confusing. We start play tonight though, so I guess we'll figure it out then. :P


[quote=Runa]
It sounds like I'll end up at least partly being a backup healer, with only one confirmed Cleric in the party. Not that I'm underestimating the use of course; I still remember how often I had to use Lay On Hands in our first game, especially during the brief time we didn't have a Cleric, or anytime she got knocked out!

If you're on backup healing detail, you'll probably want to choose one or two Cure spells for your Bard spells-known (or just invest in a wand or three of Cure Light Wounds), and then go nuts with the Lay On Hands. You get Paladin Level x Charisma Bonus per day of HP that you can heal, so you'll want to make that Charisma as ridiculous as humanly (or, in this case, elvenly) possible. That Charisma will be nice with your Divine Grace, too!

Sounds good.





I like skill points, for some reason. I guess because it's one of those things that you really have a choice in adjusting, and it helps focus what you're doing with the character and all. I hadn't thought about where my skill points other than Perform were going (partly because we aren't officially rolling characters until Tuesday or Wednesday), but Diplomacy seems an obvious one to me certainly, especially given my character's intended personality (and the size of the party!) means she may well have to call on it often. I can see use for most or all of the others you list, too.

The great thing about skill points is that you never run out of uses per day; you can persuade people, or Tumble, or Know things, all day long if you want to. And if you think creatively, you can find all sorts of clever ways to solve problems solely, or primarily, with skills. And you're right; skills are one of the most customizable, personalizable parts of a D&D character.

All of which makes sense. :)





I think the Bardic end comes first (going by the logical thematic and backstory basics; she would probably have learned music and dance from a very young age, and not decided to actively fight against oppression and such until a little later anyway, methinks), especially with existing casters and melee pros and such in the party, so I'll probably make Int my third, followed by Wis and Con.

Sounds like a plan! I hope you have fun with the character.


Here's hoping! :)

-Runa