humanoid-looking-non-ugly immortal creatures with LA?

[RoboEmperor]

Planning for the endgame of my cleric in my campaign.

She's human, but I want to make her immortal, so I want to turn her into an immortal and eternally youthful creature using Savage Species' Wish method.

Succubi, Nymphs, Erinyes, etc. would qualify except their LA is ludicrously high. Although i don't care about having 9th level spells, turning into one of these will absolutely annihilate my spellcasting so they are not an option.

MEPHITS would work except they are cohort only (I have absolutely no idea why they would be banned from normal play)

Warforged is my current choice at the moment due to their extremely customizable body and LA:0, but I prefer to be a living creature. Actually I'd prefer to be an outsider so I can grab Infernal Bargainer feat.

Elans satisfy the immortality part but not the eternal youth part.

Elementals are all LA:- so they are not an option.

My character is strong enough with planar binding that she can contribute to the party with Greater Planar Binding. If she is an outsider she can in fact contribute enough with only Planar Binding thanks to being able to bind Mariliths with Infernal Bargainer + Malconvoker so high LA is acceptable, just as long as I can cast Planar binding (or Greater Planar Binding)

The only thing I'm looking for is Immortality and Eternal Youth, preferably outsider.

edit: No undead. I have some reservations against fey but not so much as that it's not an option.

edit2: No dragon magazine.

[Forrestfire]

You could take Wedded to History (Dragon Magazine 354) and just be immortal and youthful from that. Also, as far as I know, elans should stay the appearance they were turned into forever, despite bodily deterioration? Also, warforged are alive (they're armor-plated plants), so if it's the "living" aspect that's the dealbreaker there, might be worth thinking about?

Getting Outsider type on those is tricky, though. I might just try for a savage progression LA 0 aasimar or tiefling with Wedded to History?

[Uncle Pine]

You can also use Steal Life (BoVD), several castings of Last Breath (SC), or create several living zombies (CoR).

[RoboEmperor]

You could take Wedded to History (Dragon Magazine 354) and just be immortal and youthful from that. Also, as far as I know, elans should stay the appearance they were turned into forever, despite bodily deterioration? Also, warforged are alive (they're armor-plated plants), so if it's the "living" aspect that's the dealbreaker there, might be worth thinking about?

Getting Outsider type on those is tricky, though. I might just try for a savage progression LA 0 aasimar or tiefling with Wedded to History?

Like most DMs, my DM hates dragon magazine with a passion, so much that even dragon compendium is not allowed.


You can also use Steal Life (BoVD), several castings of Last Breath (SC), or create several living zombies (CoR).

No undead, they are disgusting. Rotting flesh for all eternity, yuck. My cleric doesn't mind being not beautiful, but she does mind being ugly.

Steal life isn't bad, but it's unclear. If I drain a creature with 10 all stats, do i permanently and forever gain 10 to all my stats? What's stopping me from doing this for all eternity to reach 10,000 in every score?

In anycase I am playing a cleric so I don't have access to it even via miracle.

No to last breath, or any reincarnation shenanigans. I am looking to become immortal rather than cheat death.

[Rebel7284]

You don't gain the drained stats at all. The subject just loses them.

[RoboEmperor]

You don't gain the drained stats at all. The subject just loses them.

My bad. "The caster taps into the life force of a subject and drains it away, adding it to her own."

That first sentence caused this misunderstanding. In anycase though it is a sor/wiz8 spell so my cleric does not have access to it.

[jdizzlean]

wedded to history can also only be taken at 1st level.


if you can figure the aging part out, and are goody enough, you could apply the saint template to gain outsider, however it's a LA +2

[Uncle Pine]

No undead, they are disgusting. Rotting flesh for all eternity, yuck. My cleric doesn't mind being not beautiful, but she does mind being ugly.

That's not how living zombies work: no one is becoming undead, you certainly don't become ugly, and instead you turn i.e. 8 people into mindless pitch black-eyed version of themselves so that you age only 5.6 minutes a day. More living zombies of course work better (even though there's a limit to how many of them you can control at a time), with 17 living zombies being the bare minimum you need to age less than a second each day. Assuming you can cast all the involved spell (command undead, either dominate animal, person, or monster, false life, and feeblemind) yourself or through allies, a setup consisting of 17 living zombies is going to cost you only 17,000 gp, plus any expenses involved in their storage and upkeep.

[Ramza00]

wedded to history can also only be taken at 1st level.


if you can figure the aging part out, and are goody enough, you could apply the saint template to gain outsider, however it's a LA +2

The immortality is not related to the Wedded to History feat but it is located in the same article "Ancient PC" that the Wedded to History feat appears in. In the article there is a 9th level spell "Kissed by the Ages" where you get a ring or necklace that is 4,000 GP and the 5,000 XP cost of the 9th level spell and you make a magic item (that is not technically a magic item) that as long as you wera the magic item you gain the endless trait. The endless trait means you do not age and thus do not take any physical penalties, nor gain mental bonuses to aging, nor does your body get old, and blah blah blah. You still need to do the normal things to take care of your body such as breathe, eat, sleep, etc.

----

Combine with another 9th level spell Hide Life. Hide Life also has a 5,000 XP cost. Hide Life causes you to give up a body part such as a finger (but I think picking some of your hair would be cool from a flavor perspective) and you hide this body part and as long as this body part exists in a safe matter, you can not be dead (-10 hp), dying (-1 to -9 HP), or disabled (0 HP) and are immune to effects that cause death, dying, or disabled such as a finger of death spell. Instead you just gain the staggered condition if you are negative hit points.

----

An easy way if you are just going to do the wish method is that the Elan race has no maximum age category even though they do have middle age, old, and venerable, but once venerable they do not have a maximum age where they suddenly die due to old age.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I suggest becoming an Elan and then using Miracle to mimic those arcane spells that affect your age. Elans don't age and with arcane spells you can influence your age, I believe.

Otherwise become a Lich and use Gentle Repose on your body all the time so that it never rots and becomes ugly.

How about becoming a Lantern Archon or something immortal with low LA, and then using Miracle to mimic polymorph self and take a semblance of your original form again? Or Alter Self to look like a Solar?

[Jack_Simth]

The immortality is not related to the Wedded to History feat but it is located in the same article "Ancient PC" that the Wedded to History feat appears in. In the article there is a 9th level spell "Kissed by the Ages" where you get a ring or necklace that is 4,000 GP and the 5,000 XP cost of the 9th level spell and you make a magic item (that is not technically a magic item) that as long as you wera the magic item you gain the endless trait. The endless trait means you do not age and thus do not take any physical penalties, nor gain mental bonuses to aging, nor does your body get old, and blah blah blah. You still need to do the normal things to take care of your body such as breathe, eat, sleep, etc.

----

Combine with another 9th level spell Hide Life. Hide Life also has a 5,000 XP cost. Hide Life causes you to give up a body part such as a finger (but I think picking some of your hair would be cool from a flavor perspective) and you hide this body part and as long as this body part exists in a safe matter, you can not be dead (-10 hp), dying (-1 to -9 HP), or disabled (0 HP) and are immune to effects that cause death, dying, or disabled such as a finger of death spell. Instead you just gain the staggered condition if you are negative hit points.


Both of those are Sor/Wiz 9. However: That's not a problem for Kissed by the Ages, as it's other only. It is a problem for Hide Life, as that one is personal only. That said:
Neither is dependent on caster level. A greater Ring of Spell Storing, and someone able and willing to cast them on your behalf, and you're set.

Expensive as all get-out, though.

[RoboEmperor]

I suggest becoming an Elan and then using Miracle to mimic those arcane spells that affect your age. Elans don't age and with arcane spells you can influence your age, I believe.

Otherwise become a Lich and use Gentle Repose on your body all the time so that it never rots and becomes ugly.

How about becoming a Lantern Archon or something immortal with low LA, and then using Miracle to mimic polymorph self and take a semblance of your original form again? Or Alter Self to look like a Solar?

1. Lantern Archons are LA:-.
2. Which arcane spells? Miracle can't replicate higher than 7th level, so Steal Life cannot be accessed this way.
3. No to undead. It's just... I really don't like being undead.
4. I could you know, turn into a butt ugly Mane or Dretch and do what you said with PaO or whatnot, but... no, I want her true form to be non-ugly. I don't mind Lantern Archons because they are non-ugly despite being non-humanoid and polymorph solves the latter, but again they're LA:-


The immortality is not related to the Wedded to History feat but it is located in the same article "Ancient PC" that the Wedded to History feat appears in. In the article there is a 9th level spell "Kissed by the Ages" where you get a ring or necklace that is 4,000 GP and the 5,000 XP cost of the 9th level spell and you make a magic item (that is not technically a magic item) that as long as you wera the magic item you gain the endless trait. The endless trait means you do not age and thus do not take any physical penalties, nor gain mental bonuses to aging, nor does your body get old, and blah blah blah. You still need to do the normal things to take care of your body such as breathe, eat, sleep, etc.

----

Combine with another 9th level spell Hide Life. Hide Life also has a 5,000 XP cost. Hide Life causes you to give up a body part such as a finger (but I think picking some of your hair would be cool from a flavor perspective) and you hide this body part and as long as this body part exists in a safe matter, you can not be dead (-10 hp), dying (-1 to -9 HP), or disabled (0 HP) and are immune to effects that cause death, dying, or disabled such as a finger of death spell. Instead you just gain the staggered condition if you are negative hit points.

----

An easy way if you are just going to do the wish method is that the Elan race has no maximum age category even though they do have middle age, old, and venerable, but once venerable they do not have a maximum age where they suddenly die due to old age.

Again, no dragon magazine. Also your Elan suggestion fails to satisfy the "Eternal Youth" part of the requirement. Though it is an option to turn myself into an Elan and PaO myself into a permanent duration younger version of me, I rather have my cleric's true form be non-ugly. But yes this is a viable option and I will have to debate it between it and Warforged unless someone else comes up with a better creature.


That's not how living zombies work: no one is becoming undead, you certainly don't become ugly, and instead you turn i.e. 8 people into mindless pitch black-eyed version of themselves so that you age only 5.6 minutes a day. More living zombies of course work better (even though there's a limit to how many of them you can control at a time), with 17 living zombies being the bare minimum you need to age less than a second each day. Assuming you can cast all the involved spell (command undead, either dominate animal, person, or monster, false life, and feeblemind) yourself or through allies, a setup consisting of 17 living zombies is going to cost you only 17,000 gp, plus any expenses involved in their storage and upkeep.

Thanks for the clarification, but I'm still looking for true immortality rather than cheats or delays that can be undone via dispel magic and the like.

[Jack_Simth]

1. Lantern Archons are LA:-.
2. Which arcane spells? Miracle can't replicate higher than 7th level, so Steal Life cannot be accessed this way.

Can you rely on an arcane ally? The Greater Ring of Spell Storing is a thing, and Steal Life for agelessness also requires a Divine spell in the mix (unhallow). Seems like it'd be a match made in the lower planes.

3. No to undead. It's just... I really don't like being undead.
4. I could you know, turn into a butt ugly Mane or Dretch and do what you said with PaO or whatnot, but... no, I want her true form to be non-ugly. I don't mind Lantern Archons because they are non-ugly despite being non-humanoid and polymorph solves the latter, but again they're LA:-

Let's see... a Grig or Nixie is +3 LA and on RHD - and of course, with only 1 RHD, that goes away with class levels, so it's just +3 LA. Fey, no aging tables, and at 20th you'd still be a Cleric-17, able to cast 9ths.

[RoboEmperor]

Let's see... a Grig or Nixie is +3 LA and on RHD - and of course, with only 1 RHD, that goes away with class levels, so it's just +3 LA. Fey, no aging tables, and at 20th you'd still be a Cleric-17, able to cast 9ths.

Interesting.

Grigs are a no because of their insect bottom half.

But Nixies and Pixies do satisfy all my requirements. Unless someone comes up with a better creature I guess I will be one of these two. I can't decide whether I like Nixies or Pixies more.

It seems both of them are free of the usual fey restraints of having to be near nature, or needs nature to survive, and the like, as the MM clearly states Nixies can live on land indefinitely.

Nice find! Thanks! I think I might go with Pixies since they look more human and can fly. Not a fan of their bug wings though.

[Marlowe]

By, "with LA" do you mean they HAVE to have LA, or do you just want them to be playable? That's is, neither LA/something ridiculous nor LA-?

Killoren from Race of the Wild might work. They're immortal and they're supposed to look like Half-Elves (the artist apparently ignored this and threw in some picture of random vegetable mutants I'm presuming he had left over from art school). Of course, they're LA +0.

[RoboEmperor]

By, "with LA" do you mean they HAVE to have LA, or do you just want them to be playable? That's is, neither LA/something ridiculous nor LA-?

The latter part. You are correct.


Killoren from Race of the Wild might work. They're immortal and they're supposed to look like Half-Elves (the artist apparently ignored this and threw in some picture of random vegetable mutants I'm presuming he had left over from art school). Of course, they're LA +0.

Yeah they are weird. They're like anthropomorphic cat demons made out of vegetables. I'm categorizing them as "ugly" lol.

I'm still hoping for someone to give me an outsider because if I can bind mariliths with planar binding, then I can attempt race change at like level 15 instead of waiting all the way to 19 or 20. Why are mephits unplayable >.<

I literally combed the entire MMI-V and Fiend Folio in my search for an acceptable outsider to no avail. They're either all native and therefore not immortal, have ludicrous ECL, or LA:-.

I should add Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes, and Ghostwalk to my outsider database.

[Karmea]

A non-native outsider without ridiculous LA is a tough one. Are you married to the cleric casting? Sylph (MM2) is 3 HD and 5 LA, but casts as a 7th level sorcerer.

I was almost about to suggest noviere eladrin (http://www.enworld.org/cctest/newcc/Conversions/Eladrin,%20Noviere.htm), but then I remembered it doesn't have an official conversion, just the enworld one :smalltongue:

[Jowgen]

Interesting.

Grigs are a no because of their insect bottom half.

But Nixies and Pixies do satisfy all my requirements. Unless someone comes up with a better creature I guess I will be one of these two. I can't decide whether I like Nixies or Pixies more.

I raise you a Feytouched, Fiend Folio p. 71. Same Fey-type agelessness and lack of location-bond, but they come in humanoid-shaped medium size with a Cha boost, as well as Mind-affecting immunity and DR 5/Cold Iron (per errata). All at the price of a +1 LA.

... so, what I win? :smallbiggrin:

[RoboEmperor]

A non-native outsider without ridiculous LA is a tough one. Are you married to the cleric casting? Sylph (MM2) is 3 HD and 5 LA, but casts as a 7th level sorcerer.

I was almost about to suggest noviere eladrin (http://www.enworld.org/cctest/newcc/Conversions/Eladrin,%20Noviere.htm), but then I remembered it doesn't have an official conversion, just the enworld one :smalltongue:

There it is... in the UPDATE BOOKLET. Sylphs do not have a LA in MMII, Grrr.

Yeah Sylphs almost qualify. Almost. 8 is a bit too steep. Pixie is the superior choice here since if I have to be level 20 to change race, might as well get Greater Planar Binding than a 16hd Planar Binding.

[RoboEmperor]

I raise you a Feytouched, Fiend Folio p. 71. Same Fey-type agelessness and lack of location-bond, but they come in humanoid-shaped medium size with a Cha boost, as well as Mind-affecting immunity and DR 5/Cold Iron (per errata). All at the price of a +1 LA.

... so, what I win? :smallbiggrin:

You would win if you could show proof of your claims!

I am looking at Feytouched in Fiend Folio right now and I don't see a Cha boost, or an errata entry, or an update book entry.

Which got me curious, where does it say Fey are ageless and immortal? For Sprites it says they are in their description.

In any case if what you claim is true then you do win! Of course if someone were to bring up an outsider then you might lose :P

[Jowgen]

You would win if you could show proof of your claims!

I am looking at Feytouched in Fiend Folio right now and I don't see a Cha boost, or an errata entry, or an update book entry.

Which got me curious, where does it say Fey are ageless and immortal? For Sprites it says they are in their description.

In any case if what you claim is true then you do win! Of course if someone were to bring up an outsider then you might lose :P

Well, I'd do the calculation on the given stat-block to show the ability score modifiers... except I do not have to, because they also published them as a playable race as part of the savage progression web articles (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, off the bat.

For the DR 5/ Cold Iron, you have to consult the Fiend Folio 3.5 update (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/FiendFolio_Errata02062006.zip)

As for Fey immortality, I recall there being a few discussions about this, and the consensus is almost always that the default assumption in the rules is that they are in fact ageless, with mortality being an occasionally suggested variant. As Fey get little splat-book love, most of this comes from the Fey Feature (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey) articles

[Karmea]

Now that I think about it, Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) doesn't make you a native outsider, just a normal one. Fits with the cleric thing and you can get it early.

Oh, and you can also become an elemental via a transformational prc like elemental savant or winterhaunt of iborighu.

[Troacctid]

Non-native outsider with low LA is easy, be a neraph. It's non-ugly non-native outsider that's the trick.

[Braininthejar2]

Could you put your real body on some timeless plane like the astral, and act through astral projections?

[mabriss lethe]

Oooh, What about the Ghostwalk LA 0 Ghost template? Become an incorporeal (ethereal? I can't remember, I'm AFB and haven't cracked open Ghostwalk in a long time) outsider. (of course there are other secondary rules that the DM may or may not enforce at his leisure, so that's something of a YMMV option. Keep your original looks for all of eternity, or until you get brought back to life or shuffle off into an afterlife, should your DM want to play with the Call, or whatever it is. If you want to play in the real world, either learn to manifest, possess others, or get a shellcraft manikin, or similar.

[RoboEmperor]

Non-native outsider with low LA is easy, be a neraph. It's non-ugly non-native outsider that's the trick.

Neraphs are ugly. Slaadi are ugly and Neraphs are almost Slaads. I hate toads and Neraphs and Slaadi are toads!


Could you put your real body on some timeless plane like the astral, and act through astral projections?

Not only would casting astral projection once result in a book in my face, but it will also leave me forever vulnerable to the silver swords. Also this counts as cheating/delaying death instead of achieving true immortality an eternal youth.


Oooh, What about the Ghostwalk LA 0 Ghost template? Become an incorporeal (ethereal? I can't remember, I'm AFB and haven't cracked open Ghostwalk in a long time) outsider. (of course there are other secondary rules that the DM may or may not enforce at his leisure, so that's something of a YMMV option. Keep your original looks for all of eternity, or until you get brought back to life or shuffle off into an afterlife, should your DM want to play with the Call, or whatever it is. If you want to play in the real world, either learn to manifest, possess others, or get a shellcraft manikin, or similar.

I am AFB atm so I can't check but if I recall, the template did not mention how I can acquire the ghost template which is why I couldn't use it.

[RoboEmperor]

I just realized I could just add a half-fiend template to the feytouched! This would satisfy everything! (MM says they are hideous to behold, yet Malcanthet has half-fiend nymphs so it's not always true?)

But... I prefer to be half celestial, but I have yet to come across a spell that transforms you into a half celestial.

Are there any other outsider templates that can be acquired?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I am AFB atm so I can't check but if I recall, the template did not mention how I can acquire the ghost template which is why I couldn't use it.

Dude. You get that ghost template by dying. That's the whole schtik for the ghostwalk setting.

[Crake]

A changeling necropolitan can minor change shape away any undead ugliness while retaining all the undead goodies, including immortality. Same applies to any "ugly" immortal race with 1 level in shaper psion with the minor change shape ACF from the wizards web articles.

[Crichton]

If you're not overly concerned with gaining the Supernatural abilities and SLA's of your chosen target type, how about using a power stone of True Mind Switch? Then you can use pretty much any creature you want, so long as . If the creature is under your control, the low save DC you'll have won't matter, and you can use anything, including LA- creatures, I believe. You'd have to make a Use Psionic Device check, but boosting your skill level temporarily shouldn't be too hard.

[Jowgen]

I just realized I could just add a half-fiend template to the feytouched! This would satisfy everything! (MM says they are hideous to behold, yet Malcanthet has half-fiend nymphs so it's not always true?)

But... I prefer to be half celestial, but I have yet to come across a spell that transforms you into a half celestial.

Are there any other outsider templates that can be acquired?

You could try a savage progression into Half-Celestial. I don't think WotC ever properly released one, but they allude to it here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) and they made a 3 level transition class for aasimar to half-celestial here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a)which mentions that the full celestial progression exists and is 4 levels long.

Personally, I'd just go with that awesome suggestion made by some random, surely very handsome genius: Feytouched.

[Goaty14]

1: Kill yourself in the coolest way possible, becoming a martyr (thus earning brownie points with your deity).
2: You are a martyr, and rise again as a deathless (BoED)

Upsides: Immortality, you look as you did before
Downsides: You can be destroyed by evil clerics and commanded by good clerics (counter turning, idk). You have to take levels in the martyr prestige class, and go to your deity's plane when you reach 10th level (but this shouldn't be so bad because you're retiring your character).

That, or you could just become undead and grab a shirt of gentle repose (from that book) and not look too shabby.

[Vertharrad]

You might want to do research into Araevin Teshurr. From what I've been able to gether he cast Elven High Magic inorder to gain the qualities of a eladrin. Maybe you can do something similar with epic magic?

[Yogibear41]

Like most DMs, my DM hates dragon magazine with a passion, so much that even dragon compendium is not allowed.


I don't understand this, whats so bad about dragons that everyone hates?


Depending on who you ask half-fiends/half-celestial are immortal. Apparently it said somewhere in a 2nd edition book (only seen it quoted, not the actual book)

Only 3.5 evidence of this is the Half-fiend Harpy in the story in Frostburn that is said to be immortal. No explanation for that is given at all, so one could assume they are immortal because they are a half-fiend.

Elves have eternal youth in our campaign, but that's a house rule.

Arcanis setting has Elori, which are basically elves with fangs or something, that are immortal.

[RoboEmperor]

A changeling necropolitan can minor change shape away any undead ugliness while retaining all the undead goodies, including immortality. Same applies to any "ugly" immortal race with 1 level in shaper psion with the minor change shape ACF from the wizards web articles.

I just really don't like undead unless it's a shadow or nightwalker or the like.


If you're not overly concerned with gaining the Supernatural abilities and SLA's of your chosen target type, how about using a power stone of True Mind Switch? Then you can use pretty much any creature you want, so long as . If the creature is under your control, the low save DC you'll have won't matter, and you can use anything, including LA- creatures, I believe. You'd have to make a Use Psionic Device check, but boosting your skill level temporarily shouldn't be too hard.

Staying away from Astral Seed + Mind Switch and True Mind Switch because of its power. A lot of DMs hate this with a passion especially since you'll be using Gate to force the target to fail its will save and whatnot.


You might want to do research into Araevin Teshurr. From what I've been able to gether he cast Elven High Magic inorder to gain the qualities of a eladrin. Maybe you can do something similar with epic magic?

If I had epic magic I would make myself completely immune to all forms of damage and become an Abomination of some kind to gain immunity to all the things that kill a creature that is immune to all forms of damage. Probably a Phane.


I don't understand this, whats so bad about dragons that everyone hates?

Virtually everytime I see a Dragon Magazine content I could see how it can completely derail the game even when compared to all the books in d&d 3.5 put together so I can understand why. Especially the feats for spellcasters. Also people don't have easy access to it.



Depending on who you ask half-fiends/half-celestial are immortal. Apparently it said somewhere in a 2nd edition book (only seen it quoted, not the actual book)

Only 3.5 evidence of this is the Half-fiend Harpy in the story in Frostburn that is said to be immortal. No explanation for that is given at all, so one could assume they are immortal because they are a half-fiend.

You actually make a strong case.
1. Official Example
2. Native Outsiders don't age and die by default. They just need to eat, breathe, and sleep.
3. Another official example are half-fiend nymphs in Malcanthet's layer of the abyss. While not explicitly said they're immortal, it would make sense.

[hamishspence]

2. Native Outsiders don't age and die by default. They just need to eat, breathe, and sleep.

Tieflings, aasimar, other planetouched, and even some "extraplanar Outsiders" (Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny, Planar Handbook) have "aging tables"

A case could be made that unless the fluff specifically states it doesn't age, the outsider should be presumed to age (and die of age) unless proven otherwise.

[RoboEmperor]

Tieflings, aasimar, other planetouched, and even some "extraplanar Outsiders" (Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny, Planar Handbook) have "aging tables"

A case could be made that unless the fluff specifically states it doesn't age, the outsider should be presumed to age (and die of age) unless proven otherwise.

Or the opposite, native outsiders don't age unless the fluff specifically states it does age.

Iunno, I don't think I have the ability to debate this because there are a lot of native outsiders without age tables that should die due to old age, but the only thing that does matter to me at this time is that half-fiends seem to be immortal!

[Karmea]

Depending on who you ask half-fiends/half-celestial are immortal. Apparently it said somewhere in a 2nd edition book (only seen it quoted, not the actual book)

Well, 2nd edition doesn't have a general half-fiend, just alu-fiend and cambion, and those are lesser tanar'ri. And since tanar'ri are immortal... :smallwink: So if you keep to the AD&D fluff (and you should, it's a thousand times better with the planar stuff), then yeah, half-fiends are immortal. If you wanna go half-fiend, the savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) does make the LA less painful, especially if you can buy it off.

I do loathe 3rd edition for slapping everything with even a hint of extraplanar lineage with native outsider. In general, the planetouched races should just be humanoids. Chuck the whole native subtype and reassign the creatures that don't belong in the outsider category, imo :smallyuk:

[Jowgen]

Tieflings, aasimar, other planetouched, and even some "extraplanar Outsiders" (Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny, Planar Handbook) have "aging tables"

A case could be made that unless the fluff specifically states it doesn't age, the outsider should be presumed to age (and die of age) unless proven otherwise.

In contrast, I am yet to come across a single example of a Fey creature that dies of old age, and there are numerous examples of explicitly immortal Fey. Killoren are special in that they do have an aging table, but they explicitly never die of old age. A Dryad can live forever if it can keep it's tree kicking. Heck, even the Fey Cherry tree from dragon is explicitly immortal. Lastly, the Fey feature article that suggests different ways to handle it seems to strongly lean in favour of their immortality. A mortal fey would be a drastic departure from the standard.

[ShurikVch]

In contrast, I am yet to come across a single example of a Fey creature that dies of old ageDusklings in the Magic of Incarnum are have listed age: "Venerable" at 250, and "maximum age" +3d%
Jaebrin - in the Monster Manual V - "is an adult at age 20 or so, and can live to be nearly 200."
The Kormus - in the Knowledge Arcana: Issue 5 (https://web.archive.org/web/20060422005734/http://wizo.wizards.com/ka/archive/KnowledgeArcana05.pdf) -
Kormuses show no outward signs of aging, and indeed they do not age in the timelessness of the Astral Plane. A kormus that spends its life elsewhere in the planes can live to be 800 years old.

[Jowgen]

Dusklings in the Magic of Incarnum are have listed age: "Venerable" at 250, and "maximum age" +3d%
Jaebrin - in the Monster Manual V - "is an adult at age 20 or so, and can live to be nearly 200."
The Kormus - in the Knowledge Arcana: Issue 5 (https://web.archive.org/web/20060422005734/http://wizo.wizards.com/ka/archive/KnowledgeArcana05.pdf) -

Well I have learned something today. I still think immortal is the default in the absence of other specifications, but those do muddy the pristine picture.

[RoboEmperor]

Well I have learned something today. I still think immortal is the default in the absence of other specifications, but those do muddy the pristine picture.

Here's the thing though, almost every monster in d&d doesn't have an age table, so either they are all immortal, or you can't assume this.

Like the Harpy Half-Fiend example. i can't find anywhere that says harpies die of age or if they're immortal so it muddies my argument. If they're not then half-fiends are immortal, if they are then half-fiend does nothing.

In the Nymph Half-Fiend example I provided, I realized nymphs are immortal so presenting this example accomplished absolutely nothing.

At least I have Nixie and Pixie as my safety net atm.

Worst-case scenario for Feytouched however, is no different from planetouched, as in everything dies instead of retaining their ancestor's immortality.

[Jowgen]

Hmmm... LeShay, Killoren and Silthilar are explicitly called out as immortal. Obviously also sprites (i.e. pixie, nixie grig) . Dryads might die with their trees, but they can also become splinterwaifs. The male waterfall-bound version, the Fossegrim from Find Folio, also lives as long as it's body of water remains. Redcaps gets more powerful as they age, with no limit given...

Okay, did some digging and found something. Shadar-Kai, the shadow Fey from Fiend Folio IIRC, have an Ecology article in Dragon 337. It talks about their background as Fey and the rise of "mortals". More importantly, the part on their physiology it has this line:

"Being Fey, Shadar Kai have incredibly long life-spans, possibly even bordering on immortality."

It then goes on to say that there are extremely few Shadar-Kai who are still alive from back when their race shadow cursed itself. Meaning they remember the dawn of the humanoid races, which basically confirms that they can in theory live if not forever then for literal eons at least.

So yeah, I think this confirms that the Fey type by default comes with at least borderline immortality of a degree that, worst case scenario, you may want to look into some kinda rejuvination arrangement every couple dozen millennia. If even that.

[RoboEmperor]

Dude. You get that ghost template by dying. That's the whole schtik for the ghostwalk setting.

I finally got my hands on the ghostwalk book instead of looking up templates online, and yes, this fully satisfies everything I was looking for!

Outsider
No LA
Immortality and Eternal Youth (and you can completely change your look with some ghost feats!)
Ability to advance my spellcasting.

I'm gonna make my next character a ghost from level 1!

Alright thanks everyone!

[RoboEmperor]

Actually I take that back.

The Calling is a deal breaker @_@. There's always a goddamn catch to everything. ALWAYS. GRRRRRR!

Ok back to Nixies, Pixies, and possibly Half Fiends.

[Jowgen]

Actually I take that back.

The Calling is a deal breaker @_@. There's always a goddamn catch to everything. ALWAYS. GRRRRRR!

Ok back to Nixies, Pixies, and possibly Half Fiends.

I think the Shadar-Kai text is sufficient for you to get the immortal stamp via Feytouched, which is a great race in any case. If do wanna slap on Half-Celestial because Infernal Bargainer is worth the LA to you, see the savage progression template class for Half-Fiend here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a), it states that you can use the same progression for Half-celestial, so you can acquire the type without going for the full package.

Have I done it? Have I finally won?

[RoboEmperor]

I think the Shadar-Kai text is sufficient for you to get the immortal stamp via Feytouched, which is a great race in any case. If do wanna slap on Half-Celestial because Infernal Bargainer is worth the LA to you, see the savage progression template class for Half-Fiend here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a), it states that you can use the same progression for Half-celestial, so you can acquire the type without going for the full package.

Have I done it? Have I finally won?

There's a tiny difference between borderline immortality and actual immortality, but it's big enough for me to not go for it :P, and your Shadar-Kai text made me believe feytouched are borderline immortality instead of actual immortality.

Half-Fiend can be achieved through Nar Fiendbond and I was thinking maybe a psychic reformation to get infernal bargainer.

My DM does not like web content that is not an update or errata so half-celestial is gonna be a little hard for me to get.

But yeah... unfortunately you do not win :(. You tried so hard in this thread too >.<. Can't thank you enough for your time and effort but... I'm not settling for borderline immortality!

[Jowgen]

But yeah... unfortunately you do not win :(. You tried so hard in this thread too >.<. Can't thank you enough for your time and effort but... I'm not settling for borderline immortality!

Fair dues. Also (https://youtu.be/98ikpBr9_nQ?t=45)

[Caelestion]

Agelessness is not the same as having no maximum age category. Just check out the Chosen of Bane template for an example of someone who does not physically age until they hit their cosmic expiry date and keel over.

[Jack_Simth]

Agelessness is not the same as having no maximum age category. Just check out the Chosen of Bane template for an example of someone who does not physically age until they hit their cosmic expiry date and keel over.

The Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#monkTimelessBody) and Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#druidTimelessBody) also have examples of this. I didn't suggest pairing either with an Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) for a couple of reasons - one of which is that the OP clearly doesn't want to be a druid, one of which is the Cha penalty.

[Caelestion]

For what it's worth, Warriors of Heaven for 2nd Edition pointed out explicitly that archons and aasimon are the only immortal celestials. Asuras are transformed CG souls, but they will eventually die, whereas eladrins and guardians are both true-breeding celestial species. All three are long-lived and presumably more or less untouched by age, but they still die after several centuries.

Pretty much all the planes-touched humanoids have finite lifespans too, so whilst the half-celestial template could reasonably be expected to lengthen your life (maybe even quite significantly), the heavy weight of precedent certainly weighs against outsiders being immortal by default.

[RoboEmperor]

For what it's worth, Warriors of Heaven for 2nd Edition pointed out explicitly that archons and aasimon are the only immortal celestials. Asuras are transformed CG souls, but they will eventually die, whereas eladrins and guardians are both true-breeding celestial species. All three are long-lived and presumably more or less untouched by age, but they still die after several centuries.

Pretty much all the planes-touched humanoids have finite lifespans too, so whilst the half-celestial template could reasonably be expected to lengthen your life (maybe even quite significantly), the heavy weight of precedent certainly weighs against outsiders being immortal by default.

I don't know about celestials but according to the Fiendish Codexes, Fiends at least are all immortal. Every last one of them.

[Caelestion]

I'm not so sure about the gehreleths, but the baatezu, tanar'ri and yugoloths are all immortal, yes.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Coure Eladrin from the Book of Exalted Deeds?
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75103.jpg
Tiny Outsider with 2 HD and LA +5

[RoboEmperor]

How about the Coure Eladrin from the Book of Exalted Deeds?
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75103.jpg
Tiny Outsider with 2 HD and LA +5

This would definitely work. Thanks! I'll consider it for my current cleric.

I also managed to get the Ghost template to work on a new cleric. :)

Thanks everyone!

[Thurbane]

If you're allowed to get Inherited templates through a ritual, how about Unholy Scion (HoH)? You would be an outsider, and the only change to your appearance would be clawed hands.

[RoboEmperor]

If you're allowed to get Inherited templates through a ritual, how about Unholy Scion (HoH)? You would be an outsider, and the only change to your appearance would be clawed hands.

Doesn't stop aging and death right? These two are the mandatory things I want and outsider is luxury.

[Caelestion]

Just to go back to your first post for a moment - if you don't want elementals, you don't want mephits, as they're essentially the same sort of creature.

What sort of campaign are you playing when being 300 or so (roughly in your 40s) is not enough?

If you're really desperate, I could turn up the immortal half-fiend variant I wrote up in the Noughties for a special NPC.

[RoboEmperor]

Just to go back to your first post for a moment - if you don't want elementals, you don't want mephits, as they're essentially the same sort of creature. What was wrong with Elans, though?

If you're really desperate, I could turn up the immortal half-fiend variant I wrote up in the Noughties for a special NPC.

Elans age and become old men/women.

It's fine. I got what I wanted from this thread. Either half fiend, nixie or pixie, and ghost for my next character.

Everyone was super helpful! This thread turned me to ghostwalk. Loving that book right now.

[Thurbane]

Doesn't stop aging and death right? These two are the mandatory things I want and outsider is luxury.

I thought we were running under the assumption that all outsiders are ageless?

Although the RAW is silent as to whether the template has any effect on ageing.

If were assuming Half-fiend makes you immortal/ageless, then Unholy Scion would too, and leave you less "non-humanoid" looking, to boot.

It does carry more LA, though.

[Caelestion]

There's an excellent reason why being a half-fiend wouldn't automatically make you immortal - if you don't die, your soul never passes onto its richly-deserved torment.

[Feantar]

Admitedly I haven't read every post so apologies if this has been mentioned before, but if you're going half-fiend and want to boost charisma, this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=3) ((Half)-Fiendish Variety) is a wizards article in which they customised half fiend for the various demons - and the specific link has an example of a half-succubus for a +8 Cha.

[RoboEmperor]

There's an excellent reason why being a half-fiend wouldn't automatically make you immortal - if you don't die, your soul never passes onto its richly-deserved torment.

You do die by weapons.

Unless harpies are immortal, Azedial in Frostburn (and 2e cambions and the like) show that half-fiends are immortal.


I thought we were running under the assumption that all outsiders are ageless?

Although the RAW is silent as to whether the template has any effect on ageing.

If were assuming Half-fiend makes you immortal/ageless, then Unholy Scion would too, and leave you less "non-humanoid" looking, to boot.

It does carry more LA, though.

If it's outsider and not native outsider then yeah. Ok I'll give it a look and consider it. Thanks.

[hamishspence]

If it's outsider and not native outsider then yeah. Ok I'll give it a look and consider it. Thanks.

It is Native Outsider though. Unlike regular half-fiends, it has the Evil subtype.

[Caelestion]

You do die by weapons.

Unless harpies are immortal, Azedial in Frostburn (and 2e cambions and the like) show that half-fiends are immortal.

Point of order - 2E cambions were lesser tanar'ri and therefore full fiends, not at all what the 3E template indicates. 2E also noted that all living things need to eat and sleep, however briefly, which is again at odds at 3E's statement that non-native outsiders don't need to do either.

I don't have access to Frostburn, but in general, it's not usually a good idea to make a sweeping statement about all <anything> based on one example.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't have access to Frostburn, but in general, it's not usually a good idea to make a sweeping statement about all <anything> based on one example.

You are correct, but seeing how this is the ONLY example...

[hamishspence]

Point of order - 2E cambions were lesser tanar'ri and therefore full fiends, not at all what the 3E template indicates.
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits brought back cambions as extraplanar outsiders, native to the Abyss, with the Evil subtype, as well as being tanar'ri - so full demon fiends. Only Often Chaotic Evil (Usually any Evil - 10% are Not Evil) though - since their alignment is heavily dependent on their mother's alignment.

They're created slightly differently from half-fiends - the mother has to specifically be a planetouched human, rather than an ordinary being.

Regular half-fiends can have either parent be a fiend, from any plane, and are Native Outsiders.

[Jowgen]

So being unable to quit this thread, I went an had a look into outsider mortality.

Demons and Devils don't age, period; but it seems like all native outsiders and even some proper outsiders do. RoD and the PlH both have age tables for tieflings and aasimar, while the PGtF applies the same age limits to Genasi. The Planar Handbook also includes 4 examples of non-native outsiders that still have a maximum age limit (baraiur, mephling, shadowswyft, and wildren), and I did come across claims by other people that Eladrins have a max age as well (have not been able to verify).

As for the Frostburn half-fiend Harpy, I think there's a bit of a caveat to her case. Her whole shtick is that she killed a Rimfire Eidolon with stygian ice and somehow absorbed a portion of its power, allowing her to control the iceberg just as it did. Rimfire Eidolons are explicitly immortal. Add to that she has the "favour" of Levistus (who bugs her to work harder), and there are several fluff reasons why she might be referred to as immortal despite it not being in her stat block.

So at this point, I think it that, as a rule, Fey are actually more immortal than Outsiders (especially native ones).

[hamishspence]

RoD and the PlH both have age tables for tieflings and aasimar, while the PGtF applies the same age limits to Genasi.

Races of Faerun, and later, PGTF, applies human aging to Genasi - the other two (tieflings and aasimar) live slightly longer than humans according to their post-PGTF tables - but only slightly.

[Caelestion]

So at this point, I think it that, as a rule, Fey are actually more immortal than Outsiders (especially native ones).

I'm sure that's inspired by mediaeval tales of the Faerie realm, particularly Ogier the Dane, who spent an unspecified time with the fairies and re-entered the world, unaware that it was now centuries later.

[Thurbane]

Not all Fey are immortal: Dusklings and Uldra, for instance, do have listed maximum ages.

[RoboEmperor]

I've decided to be a pixie at level 19.

When in doubt, dodge the argument.

[Caelestion]

A level 19 what? A Pathfinder wizard can swap out their 20th-level feat for immunity to ageing and no maximum age.

[RoboEmperor]

A level 19 what? A Pathfinder wizard can swap out their 20th-level feat for immunity to ageing and no maximum age.

a cleric? I made this thread to plan for the endgame of my cleric after all...

level 19 human -> level 15 pixie.

I'm playing 3.5 not pathfinder.

[Caelestion]

It's just a feat (an "Arcane Discovery"), so it doesn't need you to play Pathfinder at all.

That said, ask a silly question perhaps, but if you're a 19th-level cleric, why can't you just use Miracle to freeze your ageing or craft a relic to do the same?

[RoboEmperor]

It's just a feat (an "Arcane Discovery"), so it doesn't need you to play Pathfinder at all.

That said, ask a silly question perhaps, but if you're a 19th-level cleric, why can't you just use Miracle to freeze your ageing or craft a relic to do the same?

Miracle to freeze aging may just result in a non-aging body that will still kill me when my time expires. Also it's not a listed direct RAW use.

I don't know what a relic is but having your life depend on an item is like a lich, and I just really don't like having a weakness in the form of item.

Also being a monster is fun.

[Caelestion]

Fair enough, but are you sure your GM is as sold as you are on the concept of immortal, ageless fey? You seem to allow for the possibility that they would subvert your desires with miracle, after all.

[RoboEmperor]

Fair enough, but are you sure your GM is as sold as you are on the concept of immortal, ageless fey? You seem to allow for the possibility that they would subvert your desires with miracle, after all.

He is a RAW DM who insists on the worst possible interpretation possible. His reasoning is that since you can be ludicrously OP and do virtually everything you want in d&d 3.5 without any DM leniency, he is not going to give us any leniency.

So he doesn't have a problem with me achieving immortality (he said it's fine) especially since I'm giving up 9th level spells for it, but he's not gonna just give it to me. It's one of the reasons I abandoned arguing about half-fiend immortality. Like you said Azediel is probably a unique case being a named servant of an archdevil.

And it's also why I gave Jowgen such a hard time in this thread!

[Caelestion]

Now if only you were playing in the Birthright setting, then you could pick up the Long Life (Major) blood power and have a lifespan 20 times longer than normal. :smallsmile:

[Crichton]

Just out of curiosity, why are you set on immortality ingame? Is it just an RP thing? Is there some mechanical benefit you'll get at your table with that? Giving up 9ths is a big price to pay for something I'm missing the benefit of. It makes for a great story, sometimes...

[RoboEmperor]

Just out of curiosity, why are you set on immortality ingame? Is it just an RP thing? Is there some mechanical benefit you'll get at your table with that? Giving up 9ths is a big price to pay for something I'm missing the benefit of. It makes for a great story, sometimes...

It is solely an RP thing.

With the way my cleric is built, she can bind Paeliryons (at-will Meteor Swarm) and Pit Fiends (cr20) 100% of the time with no chance of failure (provided the outsiders failed their will save against greater planar binding), so she can keep up with wizards with level 9 spells. I mean worst case scenario I just bind like 10+ outsiders :P, but no, only binding 1 is enough of a contribution to my party.

What I do maybe high-op, but I only optimize what I want to do, not for the sake of power. I like expendable powerful long duration minions, immortality, and eternal youth. The first is accomplished with 8th level spells and 9th level spells don't really improve this (gate requires a ton of resources) so losing 9th level spells doesn't really bother me. I do want Miracle for Owl's Insight, but not enough to forgo immortality.

It's like "I'm strong enough as it is, so might as well have some fun rather than get stronger."

[Troacctid]

If you're going epic, there are Epic Destinies (http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) that can make you immortal at the cost of several feats.

[RoboEmperor]

If you're going epic, there are Epic Destinies (http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) that can make you immortal at the cost of several feats.

If I'm going epic I'd just grab epic spellcasting and transform myself into Malacanthet or something :P.

Or stack (Ex) abilities to become immune to all forms of damage and be an Abomination to be immune to everything that kills you without damage :P.

[Bronk]

I've decided to be a pixie at level 19.

When in doubt, dodge the argument.

Pixies are fun, but that's still a lot of LA, and since you seemed to be worried about that earlier despite it being your endgame, I just wanted to point out that BoED altered the LA of half-celestials to depend on their racial hit dice. For low or no racial hit dice, the LA was updated to just LA+2, and might be a better match for a cleric thematically.

[RoboEmperor]

Pixies are fun, but that's still a lot of LA, and since you seemed to be worried about that earlier despite it being your endgame, I just wanted to point out that BoED altered the LA of half-celestials to depend on their racial hit dice. For low or no racial hit dice, the LA was updated to just LA+2, and might be a better match for a cleric thematically.

Which brings us back to whether half-celestials and native outsiders are immortal or not, and the answer is "unclear", which is why I dodged this argument by deciding on pixie :P. Nixies are LA+3 but I like how pixies look more. Don't like webbed scaly things.

[Caelestion]

I'm probably nearly as much of as a fan of immortals as you are, so if you want I could easily home-brew you a template (based on canonical rules) to give you what you're after (with an LA that is not unduly onerous).

I assume that your character is as evil as sin, given your comments about planar binding fiends, so I can't imagine that changing into a celestial anything is going to help you. Swords & Sorcery did have a 9th-level ritual where you consume a 50-grand magic item and destroy the soul of a genuinely willing high-level character (18th, I think), whereupon you become immune to ageing, have no maximum age, become immune to death effects and get all sorts of other nice powers.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm probably nearly as much of as a fan of immortals as you are, so if you want I could easily home-brew you a template (based on canonical rules) to give you what you're after (with an LA that is not unduly onerous).

I assume that your character is as evil as sin, given your comments about planar binding fiends, so I can't imagine that changing into a celestial anything is going to help you. Swords & Sorcery did have a 9th-level ritual where you consume a 50-grand magic item and destroy the soul of a genuinely willing high-level character (18th, I think), whereupon you become immune to ageing, have no maximum age, become immune to death effects and get all sorts of other nice powers.

Thanks for the offer but I must decline. My DM tolerates 0 homebrew or house rules because he is a RAW exclusive DM. I think he had some bad experience in other groups as a player with stuff like this.

I am Chaotic Neutral. This cleric is a Malconvoker, my next cleric however won't be (but will be a ghost!)

[Bronk]

Which brings us back to whether half-celestials and native outsiders are immortal or not, and the answer is "unclear", which is why I dodged this argument by deciding on pixie :P. Nixies are LA+3 but I like how pixies look more. Don't like webbed scaly things.

I saw, but figured if you were going with a fae anyway with their own unclear lifespans, I'd offer the info. If you wanted something totally above board, you could go with an elan (restoring your former memories and levels with a thought bottle), with or without another template to get away from the aberration type.

[RoboEmperor]

I saw, but figured if you were going with a fae anyway with their own unclear lifespans, I'd offer the info. If you wanted something totally above board, you could go with an elan (restoring your former memories and levels with a thought bottle), with or without another template to get away from the aberration type.

Fae is unclear but MM directly states sprites are immortal.

[Jowgen]

Fae is unclear but MM directly states sprites are immortal.

Well, not that unclear. We have it in writing that being a Fey, as a rule, grants you "incredibly long life-span, possibly bordering on immortality". Many Fey are explicitly immortal, a few have maximum ages, but for everyone else we know to at least assume incredible-endless lifespans.

Personally, I think I think it would be perfectly reasonable to ask the DM whether he'd consider a Feytouched or Half-Fey with strong Sprite/Leshay/etc. lineage to fall in the immortal rather than the incredibly long-lived bracket. They are both notably more optimised choices than Pixie with it's heavy LA.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, not that unclear. We have it in writing that being a Fey, as a rule, grants you "incredibly long life-span, possibly bordering on immortality". Many Fey are explicitly immortal, a few have maximum ages, but for everyone else we know to at least assume incredible-endless lifespans

It's clear they have borderline immortality. I'm not questioning that. I think you did a stellar job proving fae related creatures live for an absurdly long time.

But it's unclear if they are truly immortal. Or for certain faes, if they age.

[Caelestion]

Fae is unclear but MM directly states sprites are immortal.

Hang on - that is what you're basing all this upon? "Legend claims that sprites die only through injury or disease"? I think you could be in for a world of disappointment then.

[RoboEmperor]

Hang on - that is what you're basing all this upon? "Legend claims that sprites die only through injury or disease"? I think you could be in for a world of disappointment then.

Yup that's what i'm basing this on.

[Bronk]

Yup that's what i'm basing this on.

Realistically, that's probably fine for an endgame. Even if the DM doesn't go for the 'legend claims' bit, you can easily imagine that your character could at least have plenty of time to figure out something else.

[RoboEmperor]

Realistically, that's probably fine for an endgame. Even if the DM doesn't go for the 'legend claims' bit, you can easily imagine that your character could at least have plenty of time to figure out something else.

Whatever, I'm just gonna go ghost from ghostwalk. For some reason I totally forgot the reservations I had against this and I can't seem to remember/figure it out.

Ghost FTW

[Jowgen]

For some reason I totally forgot the reservations I had against this and I can't seem to remember/figure it out.

The Calling. Unless you spend eternity draining your own exp to avoid levelling, your Eidolon levels will eventually exceed your other levels and have you pass on.

[RoboEmperor]

The Calling. Unless you spend eternity draining your own exp to avoid levelling, your Eidolon levels will eventually exceed your other levels and have you pass on.

If you get resurrected all your eidolon levels get converted to your spellcaster base class levels. So once your eidoloncer level equals your non-eidoloncer levels, just cast true resurrection and convert all of them to cleric levels. I'm level 13 now so I need to cast true resurrection at level 26, at which point it will be free because I will have ignore material components epic feat.

[Jowgen]

If you get resurrected all your eidolon levels get converted to your spellcaster base class levels. So once your eidoloncer level equals your non-eidoloncer levels, just cast true resurrection and convert all of them to cleric levels. I'm level 13 now so I need to cast true resurrection at level 26, at which point it will be free because I will have ignore material components epic feat.

That works, but imo feels like it runs contrary to your wish for proper immortality. Where is the different to playing some variety of borderline immortal outsider/Fey and spending a night on a steal life binge every couple of centuries? Also, optimisation factor, undead (and especially Ghosts) have a metric boatload of special effects that they're specifically vulnerable to.

[Caelestion]

If you're going to be 26th-level, you can also use an epic spell to make yourself immortal. I think that there's even one in the ELH!

[RoboEmperor]

That works, but imo feels like it runs contrary to your wish for proper immortality. Where is the different to playing some variety of borderline immortal outsider/Fey and spending a night on a steal life binge every couple of centuries? Also, optimisation factor, undead (and especially Ghosts) have a metric boatload of special effects that they're specifically vulnerable to.

Ghostwalk ghosts are outsiders so it lets me grab Infernal Bargainer.

Clerics can't cast Steal Life even with miracle. Unless you know of a way around this... (please figure out a way!)

Anyways True Resurrection is followed immediately by a suicide. So it's like not even 1 round of aging. But it's still again so... could you figure out a way for a cleric to cast steal life?


If you're going to be 26th-level, you can also use an epic spell to make yourself immortal. I think that there's even one in the ELH!

The transform seed is ludicrously OP and I can become a true fiend without any level adjustment.

[Jowgen]

Clerics can't cast Steal Life even with miracle. Unless you know of a way around this... (please figure out a way!)

Anyways True Resurrection is followed immediately by a suicide. So it's like not even 1 round of aging. But it's still again so... could you figure out a way for a cleric to cast steal life?

The transform seed is ludicrously OP and I can become a true fiend without any level adjustment.

For casting it themselves, nothing comes to mind, but I'm not really into caster optimisation and I'd wager someone else on here would probably know a good exploit to sort this. I was just gonna suggest a plain old UMD'd scroll. It's an 8th level spell with no GP/EXP cost, so 3000 gp for a scroll, and if you only need one every hundred years or so, that works out to saving up like a silver a day. Note, for to get the full benefit no matter the method with one night of casting you'll want a rechargeable target, so a Bed of Restoration (Stronghold Builder's Guidbook) is probably in order.

If you're going Epic spells, there is already one. Ioulaum's Longevity (LEoF).

[Caelestion]

The transform seed is ludicrously OP and I can become a true fiend without any level adjustment.

You know, you seem to have a remarkably specific sense of what is (and what isn't!) overpowered.

How exactly are you planning to become a Ghostwalk eidolon without access to the very specific environmental conditions that enables them? I thought you said that your GM was enormously RAW-focused.

[RoboEmperor]

You know, you seem to have a remarkably specific sense of what is (and what isn't!) overpowered.

How exactly are you planning to become a Ghostwalk eidolon without access to the very specific environmental conditions that enables them? I thought you said that your GM was enormously RAW-focused.

Ghostwalk says, you die, you become a ghost, and you manifest into the material plane with a wis check. What environmental conditions are you referring to?

Transform Seed is ludicrously OP. You gain all Ex and Su of your new form while retaining all your current Ex. By combining with an instantaneous seed like Dispel or Heal, the transformation becomes instantaneous instead of permanent.

So what you do is you become a Tarrasque for the regeneration(ex) to everything. Some kind of undead (I forgot) for dead nerves (ex) to be immune to all nonlethal damage. Then an adamantine golem for magic immunity (ex) to be immune to all spells. Then finally you become an abomination so that you become immune to everything that can kill you without doing damage, like ability damage/drain, negative levels, etc.

So now you are invincible. And you can add in more creatures for whatever Ex ability they possess. You can literally have every Ex ability in the game with enough castings.

Epic spells must be off-limits in epic games!

But yeah if the game goes epic (which it probably won't) I can make myself immortal and invincible

edit: Yeah I'm not seeing anything about specific environmental conditions in Ghostwalk.

In order to become a ghost, a creature must be of a type that has the right kind of soul (such as humanoid). Otherwise, the creature must be under the effects of magic that prevents a dead creature’s soul from immediately entering the Veil of Souls (such as the ghost lock spell). Ten minutes after the creature dies—whether by age, disease, magic, or battle—its soul appears on the Ethereal Plane. The soul hovers on the Ethereal Plane, and if the creature does not wish to remain as a ghost, it is carried off by the Ethereal Current, which takes it across the Veil of Souls into the True Afterlife.

[Troacctid]

Ghostwalk is its own campaign setting with special rules for death and the afterlife that don't apply in other settings. It can be adapted into other settings—see the sidebar on page 134—but by default, unique cosmology is unique.

[RoboEmperor]

Yup it's there. However...



This spell sends a powerful signal to the soul of a creature that has died and not yet manifested on the Material Plane or passed on to the True Afterlife. The soul immediately appears on the Ethereal Plane and can immediately make a Wisdom check with a +10 morale bonus to manifest on the Material Plane. If that check is failed, the ghost may make Wisdom checks normally every minute to manifest.



As raise dead, except that this spell can bring back only a ghost who has been killed. It does not restore life to a dead body, but instead brings back a slain ghost as a ghost. The spell requires some of the ghost’s original ectoplasm (some of the ghost’s ectoplasm that has been preserved with magic or alchemy is sufficient). Alternatively, you may cast it on a dead creature’s body to bring it back as a ghost. The creature’s soul is aware that it will return as a ghost instead of a living creature and can refuse to accept the spell if it does not want this to happen. This form of the spell works only
on creatures that can become ghosts. As with other forms of this magic, if cast within the Manifest Ward, a raised ghost does not lose a level or a Constitution point when brought back from the dead.



If the subject creature dies while the spell is in effect, its soul immediately passes on to the True Afterlife and cannot form a ghost. The subject can still be raised from the dead or even brought back as a ghost by magic (such as with the raise ghost spell); this spell only prevents a newly slain creature from forming a ghost of its own volition.

Just added Death Lock to reinforce the fact that Raise Ghost allows a creature to become a ghost.

So either...
1. Go to manifest via teleport or...
2. Have someone cast Persuade to Manifest or...
3. Have someone to cast Cocoon + Raise Ghost, or worst case scenario... just raise ghost.

Now a challenge is how to get raise ghost cast on myself XD. Greater Glyph Seal + Body falling on the glyph after dying to Peaceful Death? Or I guess a summoned creature or animated dead using Ring of Spell Storing, but that's a ludcrously expensive option.

edit:You know what, I'll just make a new thread.

edit2:

Likewise, the magical effects that create ghosts and the disposition of souls to the True Afterlife instead of the outer planes should be a localized phenomena to avoid invalidating existing lore on the nature of the afterlife in the world.

NEVERMIND. I guess there's no avoiding Manifest.

[Caelestion]

Transform Seed is ludicrously OP. You gain all Ex and Su of your new form while retaining all your current Ex. By combining with an instantaneous seed like Dispel or Heal, the transformation becomes instantaneous instead of permanent.

Well, yes if you're going according to absolute, unthinking RAW, but given that none of the sample spells use that dodge and it's clearly not intended to do that, you might as well just say "I win" and go home.

As for Ghostwalk, it's a great setting and grossly underused, but as you now noticed, the range of the Manifest effect is 500-1000 miles at most and that's if the GM is kind enough to plonk it on your campaign world.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, yes if you're going according to absolute, unthinking RAW, but given that none of the sample spells use that dodge and it's clearly not intended to do that, you might as well just say "I win" and go home.

As for Ghostwalk, it's a great setting and grossly underused, but as you now noticed, the range of the Manifest effect is 500-1000 miles at most and that's if the GM is kind enough to plonk it on your campaign world.

We're playing eberron, and by RAW in ECS, "If it exists in d&d then it has a place for it in eberron". This is why he's allowing every 3.5 and 3.0 material in eberron. Manifest exists in the world we are playing.

[Caelestion]

Well, if you can get him to define the area in which it exists (and which thus the Draconic Prophecies have little power over) and you can arrange for the campaign to stay in that area, then it might be worth a go.

Besides, if you're on Eberron, why aren't you looking into the home-grown version of immortality, Deathless?

[RoboEmperor]

Well, if you can get him to define the area in which it exists (and which thus the Draconic Prophecies have little power over) and you can arrange for the campaign to stay in that area, then it might be worth a go.

Besides, if you're on Eberron, why aren't you looking into the home-grown version of immortality, Deathless?

Deathless is a creature type not a template.

[ShurikVch]

One more possible creature: Protectar (Miniatures Handbook): Medium Outsider (Extraplanar, Good), 2 HD and LA +3




https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/5/5b/Protectar.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20130524204651

Looking much like a tall, beautiful human with long, feathery wings, this creature is attired in elegant white robes and wears a white breastplate.

[RoboEmperor]

One more possible creature: Protectar (Miniatures Handbook): Medium Outsider (Extraplanar, Good), 2 HD and LA +3

Miniature's handbook. The hell. @_@.

So in addition to MMI-V, FC1-2, FF, BoVD, BoED, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, and Complete Arcane, I gotta add Miniatures handbook to my list of books with outsiders? So... many... outsiders!

Thanks man! Yeah this one is actually low enough of an LA that I might choose it over Ghost Template. Maybe both, start as Ghost to get Infernal Bargainer sooner, then at level 18 drop to level 13 and win the game with Mariliths.

[Caelestion]

I'm sure that an angel summoning fiends is not going to shatter anyone's immersion.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm sure that an angel summoning fiends is not going to shatter anyone's immersion.

It's not an angel summoning fiend. It's a power hungry ends justify the means spellcaster who merely looks like an angel summoning a fiend. In other words, an imposter. False prophet/angel. One tier above doppelganger.

[Bronk]

Miniature's handbook. The hell. @_@.

So in addition to MMI-V, FC1-2, FF, BoVD, BoED, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, and Complete Arcane, I gotta add Miniatures handbook to my list of books with outsiders? So... many... outsiders!


Oh yeah, there are plenty more books for you to add if you're making a list. You wouldn't think so to look at them, but even Sandstorm and Frostburn have outsiders in them. Plus, there's all the Forgotten Realms and Ebberon books too...

[Thurbane]

There's a lot of Outsiders: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablefilter=outsider&tablesort=4