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krulin
2018-02-26, 04:26 PM
I'm looking for some ideas on taking down a thieves guild in the 5th Edition campaign we're playing. The easy solution would be to cut off the heads of the hydra (so to speak). But, we have a few party members that might have problems with that approach. It'd lead to a lot more bloodshed than I'd like too. I'm not asking for ways where no killing is guaranteed. There's always the chance of messing up and having to dispose of witnesses. I just mean a method that murder isn't the means to the end primarily.

Our party is comprised of the following classes/races:

Tabaxi Rogue (Thief)
Goliath Paladin (Forget the archetype at the moment)
Dragonborn Cleric (War Domain)
Bunny Kin Druid (Circle of the Land)

Our rogue (my character) does want to start up a guild herself at some point or at least run some businesses. The thieves guild in question is evil (slavery, force prostitution, etc). I don't think anyone in the party would have a huge issue if they were a more neutral thieves guild. Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks.

LibraryOgre
2018-02-26, 04:58 PM
The Guardians of the Flame series had them dealing with slavers by simply making the process expensive. They couldn't directly strike at the leaders, so they'd attack slave caravans, free the slaves, and kill the slavers. At first, they'll try to respond with more security, but that gets expensive, and it requires a lot of work, especially if you keep killing slavers. Lose some guildsmen, and you start having to get FNGs to run things. If you get some former slaves with a hate on for their slavers and no one back home, they might be happy to join you, and you can start an all-out guild war. They didn't attack slave-owners... they didn't want to turn the general populace against them... but they killed slavers and let it be known that they were killed for being slavers.

Doing that would likely cut into the profits, and definitely start making the guild change its ways.

krulin
2018-02-26, 05:32 PM
The Guardians of the Flame series had them dealing with slavers by simply making the process expensive. They couldn't directly strike at the leaders, so they'd attack slave caravans, free the slaves, and kill the slavers. At first, they'll try to respond with more security, but that gets expensive, and it requires a lot of work, especially if you keep killing slavers. Lose some guildsmen, and you start having to get FNGs to run things. If you get some former slaves with a hate on for their slavers and no one back home, they might be happy to join you, and you can start an all-out guild war. They didn't attack slave-owners... they didn't want to turn the general populace against them... but they killed slavers and let it be known that they were killed for being slavers.

Doing that would likely cut into the profits, and definitely start making the guild change its ways.

Ooooh! I like this.

Keltest
2018-02-26, 05:50 PM
Its also worth looking at what enables them to operate. Criminal organizations struggle to get very large without at least some legitimate contacts and businesses. Who do they sell their stolen goods to? Where do they store their loot? Where do they meet? Running a thieves' guild requires logistics. Interrupt the logistics, and you force them into the open, where they can be confronted directly.

LongVin
2018-02-26, 06:10 PM
The Guardians of the Flame series had them dealing with slavers by simply making the process expensive. They couldn't directly strike at the leaders, so they'd attack slave caravans, free the slaves, and kill the slavers. At first, they'll try to respond with more security, but that gets expensive, and it requires a lot of work, especially if you keep killing slavers. Lose some guildsmen, and you start having to get FNGs to run things. If you get some former slaves with a hate on for their slavers and no one back home, they might be happy to join you, and you can start an all-out guild war. They didn't attack slave-owners... they didn't want to turn the general populace against them... but they killed slavers and let it be known that they were killed for being slavers.

Doing that would likely cut into the profits, and definitely start making the guild change its ways.

Such an underrated series of books.

LongVin
2018-02-26, 06:12 PM
Its also worth looking at what enables them to operate. Criminal organizations struggle to get very large without at least some legitimate contacts and businesses. Who do they sell their stolen goods to? Where do they store their loot? Where do they meet? Running a thieves' guild requires logistics. Interrupt the logistics, and you force them into the open, where they can be confronted directly.

I would add to this also go after the people that benefit from the thieves guild. Shut down the pawn stores that fence the stolen goods. Go after known buyers of stolen goods and confiscate them. Make cheap become expensive. If you have to worry about someone coming and "liberating" goods you known to be stolen, it becomes easier to just buy the goods at their regular price through regular means.

tomandtish
2018-02-26, 10:21 PM
I'm not asking for ways where no killing is guaranteed. There's always the chance of messing up and having to dispose of witnesses. I just mean a method that murder isn't the means to the end primarily.



The Guardians of the Flame series had them dealing with slavers by simply making the process expensive. They couldn't directly strike at the leaders, so they'd attack slave caravans, free the slaves, and kill the slavers. At first, they'll try to respond with more security, but that gets expensive, and it requires a lot of work, especially if you keep killing slavers. Lose some guildsmen, and you start having to get FNGs to run things. If you get some former slaves with a hate on for their slavers and no one back home, they might be happy to join you, and you can start an all-out guild war. They didn't attack slave-owners... they didn't want to turn the general populace against them... but they killed slavers and let it be known that they were killed for being slavers.

Doing that would likely cut into the profits, and definitely start making the guild change its ways.

While GotF is an excellent series, I'm not sure that approach matches the desire to have murder/death NOT be the primary end. The method Karl and the gang used was certainly effective, but it was definitely bloody. Probably bloodier than if they could have gone after guild heads directly.


Its also worth looking at what enables them to operate. Criminal organizations struggle to get very large without at least some legitimate contacts and businesses. Who do they sell their stolen goods to? Where do they store their loot? Where do they meet? Running a thieves' guild requires logistics. Interrupt the logistics, and you force them into the open, where they can be confronted directly.

Keltest is on the right track. But we need more info. How is the guild run? One strong leader? A committee? How legitimate are they? Completely illegal, or more embedded in the community with legal businesses and interests? Do they wield political influence (think Greyhawk where the Grand master of Thieves was also a council member)? The evil things they do, how acceptable are they with the general population and (more importantly) with the economic and political powers that be?

Thieves Guild is a nebulous term. To use modern day terms (even if some of them have been romanticized in popular culture), there are substantial differences between the Italian Mob, the Japanese Yakuza, the Russian Bratva, a Mexican drug cartel, etc. All of these could arguably be thieves guilds in some form, and all are different with differing motivations, strategies, structures, etc. Once you know who the guild is, what their long-term goals are, and how they operate, then you can determine the best way to take them down (including deciding if a bloodless option is viable).

JellyPooga
2018-02-27, 06:18 AM
1) Join the Thieves Guild in question.
2) Enjoy the benefits of being a member of a profitable and wealthy guild.
3) Wait...
4) ...damn.
5) This went wrong.
6) ???
7) I might be Evil.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-02-27, 09:28 AM
If you steal ALL the things yourself then they'll have nothing to steal and they'll be forced to disband.

Sinewmire
2018-02-27, 09:55 AM
In Due South they took on a mob boss by overpolicing his nightclub.

He'd slapped a waiter and Benton was trying to get an apology from him (victim was too scared to press charges) they couldn't press assault charges or anything but they could be in his club, asking girls for proof of age, checking for safety violations, making sure nobody was getting served if they were obviously inebriated etc. and and enforcing all the little things that don't normally get enforced.

It won't overthrow him or anything, but they got him to apologise for the slap.

LibraryOgre
2018-02-27, 01:41 PM
Such an underrated series of books.

Too bad there's no indication that it will continue with his death; I'd have liked a final book to wrap up the Arta Mrydyn arc.


While GotF is an excellent series, I'm not sure that approach matches the desire to have murder/death NOT be the primary end. The method Karl and the gang used was certainly effective, but it was definitely bloody. Probably bloodier than if they could have gone after guild heads directly.


True. And it tends to lead to copycats who might not share your morals.

gkathellar
2018-02-27, 02:18 PM
Realistically? Reduce demand for illegal services and/or increase the availability of those services through legalization and regulation (the former approach tends to be more desirable, while the latter tends to be more practical in the short term). Directly combating criminal entities performs a stopgap function, but without modifying the social conditions they prey upon, others will spring up in their place, often very quickly.

But is this like a classic fantasy thieves' guild where everybody wears black and sneaks in windows and picks pockets? If it is, just make something up. Arrest their invisibility potion supplier, for instance.

Tanarii
2018-03-03, 12:32 PM
The classic way to deal with a thieves guild is to infiltrate the place, massacre the black sorcerer at its heart (and his rat familiar), set the place on fire, then murder your way out again.


The Guardians of the Flame series had them dealing with slavers by simply making the process expensive. They couldn't directly strike at the leaders, so they'd attack slave caravans, free the slaves, and kill the slavers. At first, they'll try to respond with more security, but that gets expensive, and it requires a lot of work, especially if you keep killing slavers. Lose some guildsmen, and you start having to get FNGs to run things. If you get some former slaves with a hate on for their slavers and no one back home, they might be happy to join you, and you can start an all-out guild war. They didn't attack slave-owners... they didn't want to turn the general populace against them... but they killed slavers and let it be known that they were killed for being slavers.

Doing that would likely cut into the profits, and definitely start making the guild change its ways.
All of which, or course, actually ends up just making the slave guild situation far worse ...
http://critical-hits.com/blog/2015/02/01/murder-hobos-and-the-supply-curve-of-evil/
:smallbiggrin:

Nifft
2018-03-03, 01:08 PM
Infect some or all of the slaves with magical diseases and death-curses that will trigger after they're bought and taken home, making each slave the epicenter of an undead outbreak (and magical disease epidemic).

This will tend to reduce demand.

War_lord
2018-03-03, 02:37 PM
Depends a lot on how the Thieves Guild is set up. The fantasy trope of the "Thieves Guild" can cover anything from organized syndicates to a collection of loosely allied bands, to full on terrorist organizations.

Are they hierarchical or horizontal? Is it all united under one leader or are their many heads only nominally under one leader? Are they prone to infighting? Do they have the authorities on their side? Do they hide behind legitimate businesses? Do they care about their public image? I can't give a strategy until I know if your DM is pitting you against the Mob or Fanatics living in bunkers using human trafficking to fund "the cause".

TheYell
2018-03-03, 04:06 PM
How is a paladin going to work with a rogue to set up a moderately criminal thieves guild?

Nifft
2018-03-03, 04:24 PM
How is a paladin going to work with a rogue to set up a moderately criminal thieves guild?

Perhaps some kind of "steal from the Evil, give to the Good" Robin Hoodlum thing?

Kaptin Keen
2018-03-03, 04:48 PM
Were I to make a story such as this, my premise would be this:

Thieves aren't evil, and they don't become thieves because they want to. Thieves are entirely ordinary people who become thieves to survive.

So I'd focus my campaign on the fact that - as you cruch the thieves guild, you also strip a lot of people of the only source of income available to them. And while individual thieves are easy to find, the guild masters have taken exquisite care to remain hidden.

I'd make sure at least one guild master was a kindly old priest, who - in true Robin Hood fashion - made targets of the rich, and distributed to the poor.

But that's me. I love my moral grey zones.

Keltest
2018-03-03, 09:34 PM
How is a paladin going to work with a rogue to set up a moderately criminal thieves guild?

The paladin, presumably, doesn't have to be involved at all. They can pursue legitimate means of making life hard for this organization, while the rogue creates competition that isn't suffering from his attentions. The coordination doesn't even have to be active so much as implicit. Now, what the paladin would do should they be successful is a bit of a question, but I think "I plan to go after the baby eaters before the pickpockets" is a legitimate view for a paladin to take.

Doctor Witch
2018-03-04, 12:16 AM
I'd say the best way to take down a thieves guild is to out-thieve them.

Start by having the thief join the guild and gather as much info as possible, whilst also providing as much misinformation* as they can. Use that info to play both sides of the law, have the Paladin make contact with the local authorities to feed them information** that will thwart the guilds more nefarious activities whilst doing your best to make it look like bad luck/a curse/someone else within the guild is responsible. Divide those within the guild as much as possible, having the others in the party feed any guilty conscious through simple conversation in taverns, force dreams upon them, any tactic to make them consider new leadership or a career change. Identify the truly evil ones within and have them made the targets of the watch/other thieves by planting stolen items, tip-offs with information that supposedly only they could know, rumours of their corruption etc.

Concurrently you could start an illusionary guild to start a guild war. The other guild doesn't have to be real at all. Just have victims of their protection rackets lie to them about being stood over and ask them to do something about it to lead real guild members into your traps. Have illusions of muggings in the street and have thefts thwarted by your illusory guild having got there first. The aim is to have the real guild tear itself apart with paranoia about moles and spies. Not a single person needs to be killed by the party, do it right and the evil ones will kill each other and leave the others exposed to be captured/coerced into further betrayals.


*It would take time and effort to be inserted and trusted but with careful planning and tact you could become fairly well regarded easily. A couple of easy scores using the parties wealth or arrange it with the authorities to have funds or loot made available, and suitably enchanted, to help track and identify the guilds methods of dispersal. A suitably theatrical fake curse on the guild that only affected people who were a part of it before your rogues joining may also help.

**And to root out any corrupt officials who can be prosecuted or be used as pawns to further your parties agenda.

jojo
2018-03-04, 02:52 AM
The problem with understanding things on a functional, real world level, is that when you stare into the abyss...

Not only that but it's likely to cause a huge deal of rage for your party and DM because unless whoever is running the campaign interacts with organized crime or has a high enough degree of interest to have educated themselves about it's operational aspects you're basically going to immediately break the game just by knowing more than the DM.

That being said... here's how I would do this...

The fact that the Thieves' Guild engages in slavery, prostitution, etc in a profitable and more or less tolerated manner is nothing more than a symptom of the broader ethical, moral and economic issues of the society in which it exists. Express this to the Paladin. Explain to the Paladin that you want to "help" put a Lawful Good-Guy government in place. He/She doesn't have to be the King but you're gonna Crown someone else and intent to ensconce a representative of the Paladin's religion on the throne. The Paladin should help, you'll be super good and nice and all.

Now. Paladins are immune to non-magical diseases. They can still act as carriers though. So you need to infect the Paladin with a relatively nasty STD. Failing this you need to find someone a little more... morally malleable, preferably one of the Paladin's buddies. Every Rogue needs a cat's-paw to pin their crimes on.
10 or 15 gold pieces in a fantasy economy coupled with one syphilitic Paladin should be secure enough sex-worker traffic to start a serious epidemic in the capital city or whichever other urban locale that this is based in.
Unlike in reality where you're screwed the Johns' response to this will likely be to throw money and worship to the Paladin's God in order to get cure disease cast on them. Simultaneously it's reasonable to expect a strong public outcry on behalf of those who can't do this. The ensuing moral puritanism ought to remove an entire pillar of the Thieves' Guild's economy relatively quickly without you having to do anything public or overt.

Alternately you could do this with incoming slaves. Or, you could have the Druid nail a few caravans with a summoned swarm of plague rats to achieve the same effect.

The point of this is to remove two pillars of profit, Slavery and Prostitution, from underneath the existing Thieves' Guild.

At this point whatever "government" is in power ought to be looking for solutions. So you can just start recruiting and offer your Roguish services in solution of the problem. In other words your nascent Thieves' Guild can get government sponsorship and basically be justified as the Fantasy FBI/CIA all in one. Which now gives you the legitimacy your Paladin probably needs to justify working with you openly.
From here you can just openly start shutting down their money laundering and protection rackets, more importantly you can do this openly.

A goon squad extorting an "honest grocer?" Well your Goon Squad has God on Speed Dial. And you don't need the pittance that grocer can pay because the State's Coffers runneth over. So you get to be the big-damn hero and beat up Thugs publicly. Alternately you can just levy a fine from them and send them home to think about what they've done. Or you can recruit them to the cause. Sure it's coercive but the source is straight so it's A-OK! Regardless of which outcome occurs the Thieves' Guild's revenue stream takes a hit. Rinse and repeat until your guy is swept into office or lifted onto the throne and your "Thieves' Guild" exists in a morally grey but defensible position as the State's Intelligence Apparatus...

That's just ONE possible way to play out your agenda...

2D8HP
2018-03-24, 12:15 PM
The classic way to deal with a thieves guild is to infiltrate the place, massacre the black sorcerer at its heart (and his rat familiar), set the place on fire, then murder your way out again.


All of which, or course, actually ends up just making the slave guild situation far worse ...
http://critical-hits.com/blog/2015/02/01/murder-hobos-and-the-supply-curve-of-evil/
:smallbiggrin:


@Tanarii,

You've successfully referenced both

Ill Met in Lankhmar (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATh2M0QO-Eo)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/TERflQ3SHnI/AAAAAAAACTw/6ebuZT8F23M/s200/FSF_0227.jpg

and

Dungeonomics (http://www.critical-hits.com/critical-hits/columns/dungeonomics/)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/46/f6/4146f6220eaa9360c920f2136bac4a11.gif