Looking at warlock, I feel like the patrons have become kinda, niche and situational

[Ralanr]

When it was just old one, fey, and devil, it felt like some experimental builds could work, particularly with bladelocks. Fey felt more trickery and I guess fencer focused while fiend wanted to get hit a lot to hurt you more. Now with hexblade, I cannot see a reason to go fiend or fey blade lock.

And if I wanted to go blastlock, fiend seems to be the best choice. Heallock? Strictly in the domain of the celestial warlock.

It makes me wonder, from mainly an optimization standpoint, why or even what playstyle you’d pick fey and undying for.

[DracoKnight]

When it was just old one, fey, and devil, it felt like some experimental builds could work, particularly with bladelocks. Fey felt more trickery and I guess fencer focused while fiend wanted to get hit a lot to hurt you more. Now with hexblade, I cannot see a reason to go fiend or fey blade lock.

And if I wanted to go blastlock, fiend seems to be the best choice. Heallock? Strictly in the domain of the celestial warlock.

It makes me wonder, from mainly an optimization standpoint, why or even what playstyle you’d pick fey and undying for.

Fey is awesome for a social trickster role. GOO is a good infiltrator to go with the rogue and the shadow monk. They get invisibility, telepathy which allows you to communicate with your comrades without breaking stealth, you can pick up Mask of Many Faces to look like anyone else if you get caught. Shadow blade and eldritch blast mean you look unarmed, but really aren't. If you manage to knock out a guard while infiltrating the place, you can make them your Thrall and turn them into an ally.

Undying's been sh!t from the beginning. I dunno why anyone would pick it. I certainly never would. Maybe someone might pick it for flavor, but it's so...underwhelming mechanically that no one worrying about optimization would pick it.

[Armored Walrus]

I don't know that fey bladelock ever made sense to begin with. Its kit includes charming/frightening people, an ability that's essentially a free Misty Step+, bouncing a charm back on the caster, and a way to completely nullify one creature by beguiling it. It was never designed to grab a blade and plunge into melee, imo. It's for dominating social encounters.

GoOlock is just... weird. I dunno.

[Unoriginal]

If you want to go by optimization standards, EVERYTHING is niche and situational.

Because you can't optimize to do everything in 5e.

Nobody is going to suggest a Circle of Dream Druid build if you want an optimized tank. Nobody is going to suggest Hobgoblin if you want an optimized duel-wielding social Rogue.

Thing is, non-optimized builds often make up for not reaching as high as possible by reaching wider. But that's not optimization, unless you want "the best utility build" or something.

[Biggstick]

It makes me wonder, from mainly an optimization standpoint, why or even what playstyle you’d pick fey and undying for.

An Archfey Patron is for a Player that's looking to emphasize combat options that aren't as concrete as the three you've already listed. Teleporting upon getting hit and turning invisible is fantastic for survivability. Being immune to Charm, and being able to turn it on the Charmer can be a powerful effect in certain campaigns (and makes you immune to spells like Hypnotic Pattern). And their level 14 ability is an albeit tough to use ability, it can control someone for up to a minute. Archfey also has Greater Invisibility on it's spell list, which no other Warlock will have access to.

An Undying Patron is for a Player that is focused survival. They are the only Warlock archetype to gain access to the Death Ward spell. They also gain access to something akin to a "don't die" mechanic, but it requires a successful saving throw first. The archetype is one that does extremely well in an Undead campaign, or one that requires strict resource management. While these do fit in a bit more with your niche statement, I feel they're worth accounting for.

I would pick the Archfey patron (from an optimization standpoint) if my character was less focused on doing damage and more focused on keeping self safe. It has features/spells that can apply to many situations, and work successfully with a Warlock's limited spell-casting potential.

I would pick the Undying Patron if I was playing in an Undead-focused campaign (which it's very much so optimized for). I feel their access to Death Ward, and their ability to spring back up upon falling from 0 hp makes them incredibly resilient, especially if one were to focus on being an Eldritch/Agonizing Blast Warlock.

[GlenSmash!]

I really liked the idea of a fiend bladelock picking up temp HP on kills. It fit my concept of a Bladelock, if it came up short in the mechanics. I wold have liked to see it be more supported, but Hexblade was just too much for it.

[Ralanr]

I really liked the idea of a fiend bladelock picking up temp HP on kills. It fit my concept of a Bladelock, if it came up short in the mechanics. I wold have liked to see it be more supported, but Hexblade was just too much for it.

Honestly if temp HP stacked then armor of agathys with fiend bladelock would be the best thing ever at early levels.

I’m saddened it doesn’t.

[GlenSmash!]

Honestly if temp HP stacked then armor of agathys with fiend bladelock would be the best thing ever at early levels.

I’m saddened it doesn’t.

Giving Fiend HP a specific rule where it can stack with another source of Temp HP would be interesting. I can't think of any OP multi-class combos for it off the top of my head.

[Naanomi]

I’ve done an Undying Warlock in an undead campaign... I still had fun with the character but found the survivability and anti-undead features were unimpressive even in their set niche

[Asmotherion]

Three reasons mostly:

Two from an optimisers viewpoint:
-Shadow blade is an amazing spell, practically a Smite-per-turn (damage-wise), and specifically cannot work well with a Hexblade Build (synergises only with a Physical Build).
-Some very cool martial builds can profit from a Warlock dip or multiclass, and might work better with their physical stat rather than Cha. A Kensai Monk for example could be a good example of both of the above, who would benefit more from dumping Cha over Dex, but profiting from Spell slot progression to gain Shadow Blade and some Invocations.

And one from a Role Player perspective:
-Just play a cool character concept, and worry about stats as a secondary thing? I know it's not always easy to do so, especially if the group optimises, but if you optimise lightly, just going for wichever Patron seems cool is still going to be fun nevertheless. The DM will probably give you a cool backstory about it whichever you pick anyway.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Fey Bladelock works because its expanded spell list has multiple ways of getting advantage beyond the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo cheese. Faerie Fire and Improved Invisibility are both excellent for this purpose, making the Fey Bladelock one of the most accurate melee attackers in the game. When I played one, melee attacks without advantage were the exception, not the rule.

[Ralanr]

Giving Fiend HP a specific rule where it can stack with another source of Temp HP would be interesting. I can't think of any OP multi-class combos for it off the top of my head.

Barbarian with enough set up time maybe. Rage makes temp HP last longer.

[Vogie]

Barbarian with enough set up time maybe. Rage makes temp HP last longer.

Yeah, but Rage also removes the ability to cast. I think that would be a decent trade-off. It would also be an interesting avenue to open up, as Hexblade making Bladelocks SAD has been eating Fiend's Lunch.

Warlock's joy in multiclassing should be encouraged. If druids love GOO warlocks because they like the telepathy while wild-shaped, why not open up Fiend so it would click with barbarians or Samurai Fighters?


I'm going to write down that as a potential houserule, see if my players pick up the potential.

[strangebloke]

My understanding is that single class fiendbladelock doesn't work super well, but that starting with two levels of fighter makes it a lot better.

Single class fiendbladelock really can't get in on the frontlines until he maxes out his dex at level 8. the multiclassed character can do it from level 1.

[JellyPooga]

Undying Warlock looks sub-par because their Patron features are both circumstantial and relatively weak. Their strength lies in their bonus spell list. There's some real corkers on there; Death Ward has been mentioned, but Silence and Contagion are also attractive choices, among others for a creative player (like Feign Death). The spell list isn't, perhaps, enough to make up for the weaker features, but it's good enough that the Undying Patron isn't a compete waste of space.

[Malifice]

When it was just old one, fey, and devil, it felt like some experimental builds could work, particularly with bladelocks. Fey felt more trickery and I guess fencer focused while fiend wanted to get hit a lot to hurt you more. Now with hexblade, I cannot see a reason to go fiend or fey blade lock.

And if I wanted to go blastlock, fiend seems to be the best choice. Heallock? Strictly in the domain of the celestial warlock.

It makes me wonder, from mainly an optimization standpoint, why or even what playstyle you’d pick fey and undying for.

Hexblades make amazing blast locks.

And fiends make amazing blade locks.

[Malifice]

My understanding is that single class fiendbladelock doesn't work super well, but that starting with two levels of fighter makes it a lot better.

Single class fiendbladelock really can't get in on the frontlines until he maxes out his dex at level 8. the multiclassed character can do it from level 1.

You dump dex as a Fiend blade lock.

At 1st level take Fighter and your choice of PAM (optional) or GWM. I prefer GWM because you get that cleave off most rounds dropping goblins and the like. Your DPR is higher. Much of the muchness.

For a Tank build, instead take HAM. It pairs awesome with Fiendlock Temp HP on a kill once you hit 2nd level.

Dump Dex and Int. Put your +1s in Strength and Charisma for 16's. Decent Wisdom and Con. Heavy armor. +1 AC fighting style. Plays like any fighter.

From 2nd - 6th level its Warlock all the way. Take HAM at 4th level (or GWM or PAM). If you took HAM at 1st, youre now killing Kobolds, Skeletons and Goblins, milking Temp HP each kill, and reducing all incoming damage by 3 from HAM. Youre basically doing this every single round. You get your second wind 1/ short rest as well when needed.

At 5th level you should have HAM and GWM (my choices) and have full plate. You spam Hex and Greenflame blade for damage (this covers the loss of extra attack). Most rounds you're getting in 2 swings, one of which is Greenflame blade with Hex. 5d6+2d8+6 damage per round.

At 6th level (lock 5/ Fighter 1) Thirsting blade and Eldritch smite comes online, as does Fireball. You're tanking like a boss, fighting as good as the Fighter, with the option to smite, fireball and a ranged attack from EB when you cant get in close.

I like to take 2 more levels of Fighter here (Action surge and superiority dice).

From there its Warlock to 17th. Remaining feats are Resilient Wisdom, and +4 to Charisma. Get yourself a magic weapon, and a belt of giant strength.

9th level spells, fighting as good as a Fighter, with a good back up ranged attack from eldritch blast. Milking 22 HP each kill, and reducing damage by 3 on the way back (plus resistance from Fiend lock). Dark ones own luck for a clutch save, invocations, and [Hex + Hurl through hell + Eldritch Smite + Sup dice + GWM + Action surge + Thirsting Blade + Lifedrinker + magic weapon] melee nova available every short rest.

It is a great combo.

[Ralanr]

Yeah, but Rage also removes the ability to cast. I think that would be a decent trade-off. It would also be an interesting avenue to open up, as Hexblade making Bladelocks SAD has been eating Fiend's Lunch.

Warlock's joy in multiclassing should be encouraged. If druids love GOO warlocks because they like the telepathy while wild-shaped, why not open up Fiend so it would click with barbarians or Samurai Fighters?


I'm going to write down that as a potential houserule, see if my players pick up the potential.

Well actually losing the ability to cast isn’t too hindering. It takes some set up, but a fiendlock with fire shield and armor of agathys can keep those buffs on them during rage. That way you get some benefit when raging, and you still have access to some abilities when you’re done raging.


Hexblades make amazing blast locks.

And fiends make amazing blade locks.

Do tell.

[Malifice]

Do tell.

See above for a Fiendlock build. It dips a few fighter levels but is 17 levels of Fiend.

It tanks as good as the Barbarian, and Fights as good as the fighter, has good defences, a fantastic nova (available 1/ short rest) and 9th level spells and invocations.

For Hexblade blaster-caster, simply take Tome as your pact (for the rituals - you can use your accursed spectre as your familiar from 6th) and Hex + EB + hexblades curse. Take the usual invocations (agonizing blast, repelling blast etc).

Hexblades curse adds to each damage roll. Your EBs do 4 attacks at 17th, each one getting +cha to damage, + proficiency to damage, pushing your opponent 10' back and critting on a 19-20... plus hex.

4d10+4d6+20+24, critical hit on a 19-20.

You could work sorcerer levels in there for either as well to toss in a quickened [greenflame blade] or [eldritch blast] if you wanted also.

[Talionis]

The whole reason they had to make Hexblade was because the Bladelock wasn't given enough tools for anything but skirmishing and no real reason to be in melee.

Hexblade is way too front loaded. It would've been nice to see them spread the melee abilities out so that Hexblade wasn't such an appealing dip for Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, etc that want to wade into melee. Its not over powered mechanically, because melee range is more dangerous, but its seems odd to put some many abilities on a single level of Warlock dip.

I can't speak to Fey much, but Fiend Bladelock's work with a one level dip into something else, like Fighter or Cleric to get armor. They were pretty MAD, but playable. Fiend gets a lot of really good blasty spells in its spell list, and the temporary hit points do help with survivability.

Hexblade is really powerful, especially for melee/Gish characters. I don't think overpowered, but I do think front loaded. But I think you can be very viable in some of the Patrons for melee characters, but you need to be willing to be more MAD and dip into other classes to optimize.

[Vogie]

Well actually losing the ability to cast isn’t too hindering. It takes some set up, but a fiendlock with fire shield and armor of agathys can keep those buffs on them during rage. That way you get some benefit when raging, and you still have access to some abilities when you’re done raging.

That's what I'm saying. Melee Bladelocks with AoA or False Life (via Invocation), Cast Darkness/moil (which negates the downside of Reckless attack) and go into a rage will be dealing some serious damage while giving some other benefits. The Storm Herald Desert path seems very Fiend-y, and the Ancestral Guardian path actually has some vaguely terrifying resonance with a Fiend Patron.


The reason they're saying Hexblades are decent blasters is because Hexblade's Curse gives the Improved Critical effect and damage equal to the proficiency bonus, even if all you're hitting the cursed target with is Eldritch Blast. Edit: Ninja'd

[Malifice]

Hexblade is way too front loaded. It would've been nice to see them spread the melee abilities out so that Hexblade wasn't such an appealing dip for Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, etc that want to wade into melee.

Is it though?

Is delaying things like +Cha to saves, extra attack, improved divine smite and so forth really worth +Cha to hit and damage with a one handed weapon?

Paladins can dump Dex and Int and not notice it. Wisdom is only needed for saves and perception.

Not sure the dip is worth what you delay.

You still need Dex and Strength for AC in any event. Either because you want to wear Plate mail (weighs 65lbs alone) or you arent wearing heavy armor and thus you need Dex.

You cant dump Str lower than 13 if you want to MC into Hexblade as a Paladin in any event. And having a Str that low means picking up a single cp encumbers you if you're wearing plate. Most basic adventuring gear (weapons, pack, rations, waterskin, rope etc) pushes you close to heavily encumbered also.

[Malifice]

That's what I'm saying. Melee Bladelocks with AoA or False Life (via Invocation), Cast Darkness/moil (which negates the downside of Reckless attack) and go into a rage will be dealing some serious damage while giving some other benefits. The Storm Herald Desert path seems very Fiend-y, and the Ancestral Guardian path actually has some vaguely terrifying resonance with a Fiend Patron.

Its the tanking of Fiend lock as well that gets overlooked. You want to get hit, because you're constantly generating temporary HP (plus you can throw a Hellish rebuke at them, or Armor of Agathys).

Again; with HAM its even better.

Dont forget that Fiendlocks get resistance vs 1 type of S,B or P. Choose wisely and you can tank so hard the Barbarian and Moon Druid get jealous.

[Appleheart]

While there are a few outliers (a heallock ofc has to be celestial, I guess), but for the rest it feels like the core spell selection offers enough options that you are never really forced into something. You have enough CC spells that you can be a CC specialist with a Fiend lock. You have enough blasting options that a celestial warlock can do the blasting just fine, etc.

Warlocks feels, to me, like its one of the best classes around for having a lot of leeway to pick a subclass based on fun/flavor/RP without too much messing up the core play of the class.

Aaaand then there is Hexblade. Screw the hexblade. ;)

Hexblade's cha on hit/dmg and armor/shield prof should be baked in with the Pact of the Blade, and the Hexblade's Curse should be a Pact of the Blade invocation.

[strangebloke]

You dump dex as a Fiend blade lock.

...

It is a great combo.

Not if you're single-classed you don't!

And that's why single class fiend-blade-lock kinda sucks. A level or two of fighter makes it a lot better, as you noted.

[Armored Walrus]

Fiend blade lock.

Wow, you make me want to try this out exactly in my Battle Royale game.


Hexblade is way too front loaded. ... its seems odd to put some many abilities on a single level of Warlock dip.

From a fluff perspective, though, I like the fact that Warlock is MC bait. You can be nearly any other class and then sell your soul to get better at it without any time or effort put into training, etc. It fits perfectly. Warlock is supposed to be the cheap path to instant power.

[Angelalex242]

Feylock basically thinks it's a bard.

[Malifice]

Not if you're single-classed you don't!

And that's why single class fiend-blade-lock kinda sucks. A level or two of fighter makes it a lot better, as you noted.

OK. Dwarf Bladelock (Fiend). Medium armor and shields to start with. Upgrades to Plate via the Heavily armored feat at 4th level (taking his Str to 18). Takes GWM at 8th level. Increases Charisma to 20 with his three remaining ASI.

Vuman can do it also via taking Moderately armored at 1st level, and thanks to starting with Cha 16, has an ASI left over for Resilient [con].

Dex 10. When you hit 4th level (and get heavily armored) switch to greatsword. Still has all the goodness of [Hex + GWM + Thirsting blade/ life drinker + Eldritch smite + Hurl through hell].

Has the advantage of being 3 levels ahead of the Fighter/ Fiend lock for spells, pact magic slots/ short rest and invocations and class features.

I Prefer the MC though.

[rbstr]

If you go dex-based the single-classed Bladelock works just fine with any patron. It's not some kind of DPR monster, so the white-room warriors whine about it, but it's very flexible and capable when you tune your fighting style to your patron.
Like at level 2 you can pick up +1 studded leather via invocations and at level 3 you can get a +1 rapier (or whatever).
You have a good selection of defensive spells on the basic list by then with Armor of Agathys and Mirror Image (both of which are non-concentration which is a huge deal IMO).
At patron spells being some fun stuff for that as well like Fire Shield and Greater Invisibility.
The thing it really lacks is a mid/high teens at-will damage upgrade. But I haven't found that to matter much in practice. The reality is that all of the extra-attack full casters end up being mostly caster then.

[Ralanr]

If you go dex-based the single-classed Bladelock works just fine with any patron. It's not some kind of DPR monster, so the white-room warriors whine about it, but it's very flexible and capable when you tune your fighting style to your patron.
Like at level 2 you can pick up +1 studded leather via invocations and at level 3 you can get a +1 rapier (or whatever).
You have a good selection of defensive spells on the basic list by then with Armor of Agathys and Mirror Image (both of which are non-concentration which is a huge deal IMO).
At patron spells being some fun stuff for that as well like Fire Shield and Greater Invisibility.
The thing it really lacks is a mid/high teens at-will damage upgrade. But I haven't found that to matter much in practice. The reality is that all of the extra-attack full casters end up being mostly caster then.

Yeah but it’s a dex based build...I kinda dislike those.