Produce Flame and Iterative Attacks

[Yogibear41]

If my bab is high enough for iterative attacks, can I cast produce flame and in the same round make iterative attacks with it? Or would I be limited to only 1 attack in the round I cast it in, but then be able to make iterative attacks in the following rounds (until I ran out of uses of course)

[Bucky]

Produce Flame is a standard action to cast. In general, a full attack is all or nothing. You can't use the standard action for spellcasting and then take iteratives afterwards.

Since you usually only get one standard action per round, you can't even take a single attack after casting it, unless an enemy provokes a melee AoO.

You can use Quicken Spell if you want to cast Produce Flame and attack right away.

[Covenant12]

At some surprise to me, it looks like Bucky is completely correct. I'd always ruled it as a touch attack spell, which allows 1 attack (not iteratives) in the first round, but on review I don't think produce flame qualifies. I'll continue to rule that way when I DM, but that's looking like a house rule.

For my house rule or normal touch spells like chill touch, still no iteratives on first round. (barring quicken spell or the like) Touch spells allow a single touch attack the round they are cast, but full attack is far more restricted. Full attack for produce flame or chill touch is fine beginning on second round.

[Yogibear41]

Since you usually only get one standard action per round, you can't even take a single attack after casting it, unless an enemy provokes a melee AoO.


I think if this were the case they would have worded the spell like Darkfire, which specifically says you can't attack until the following round with it.

PHB says that "you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later." it regards to touch spells.

[Malimar]

I think if this were the case they would have worded the spell like Darkfire, which specifically says you can't attack until the following round with it.
Darkfire is clearly based on produce flame. The more reasonable interpretation is that they didn't think the intent needed clarifying until after the original spell was published, so they clarified it in the later spell.


PHB says that "you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later." it regards to touch spells.
While that's true so far as it goes, produce flame is not a touch spell.

[BowStreetRunner]

The problem with darkfire is that its wording actually restricts you from using it to make an attack of opportunity before the round following the one in which it was cast. Since an AoO during that time would occur before the following round, and Darkfire states "Beginning the following round" you can't use it during that window of time.

[ericgrau]

Interesting, it says attacking with it is a melee/ranged touch attack. Since it says "attack" and not "standard action" to hurl it, it can be used any time you can use an attack. Multiple attacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.

So potentially you could cast produce flame twice to get it in both hands. Then use rapid shot (+1), ITWF (+2), haste (+1), and 6 BAB (+1) to attack 6 times a round. And since they're touch attacks you might actually hit with most of them in spite of the -3 to -8 net penalties. Starting on round 3 but you could extend it and cast it right before entering a dungeon for example. At most 6d6+6 and less after misses so not that special.

What you could do instead is TWF rapid shot a thrower for 3 attacks at low level. 3d6+3 or 13.5 average before misses. Not worth the feats on their own but if you're doing a throwing build... hmm why are you doing a throwing build on a druid? And it's even harder to cast it before a dungeon at low level because it will expire too fast.

Ok I'm stuck, but there's probably some way to use this. Maybe back to a high level build but get some sort of fire damage increasing abilities which you now multiply by 6+? A 120 foot range no save touch attack damage cannon could be swanky. Maybe pop in something to overcome SR and change energy type. And quicken of course to make it more reliable.

[BowStreetRunner]

So potentially you could cast produce flame twice to get it in both hands. Then use rapid shot (+1), ITWF (+2), haste (+1), and 6 BAB (+1) to attack 6 times a round. And since they're touch attacks you might actually hit with most of them in spite of the -3 to -8 net penalties. Starting on round 3 but you could extend it and cast it right before entering a dungeon for example.

Don't forget, you have to balance a duration of 1 minute per level versus "Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute." So even at 20th level with Extend Spell in place you are going to get at most 40 rounds -1 per attack.

[Rebel7284]

Darkfire is best with Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell]

[Uncle Pine]

Produce Flame is a standard action to cast so no, you can't attack with it in the same round you cast it unless you have means to regain that standard action and/or ways to cast it faster (i.e. quicken spell). However, the spell clearly says "Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon." Last time I checked, thrown weapons allowed iteratives, so you can indeed throw more than one flame/round if your BAB permits it.

[Kurald Galain]

If my bab is high enough for iterative attacks, can I cast produce flame and in the same round make iterative attacks with it? Or would I be limited to only 1 attack in the round I cast it in, but then be able to make iterative attacks in the following rounds (until I ran out of uses of course)

In the round you cast it, you don't get to make any attacks (and this is why it's not a very good spell).

In subsequent rounds, you do get iteratives, either as melee or as thrown. You can also do this in the first round either with Quicken Spell, or if you play a Magus (which normally does not have this spell on his list, though).


Don't forget, you have to balance a duration of 1 minute per level versus "Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute." So even at 20th level with Extend Spell in place you are going to get at most 40 rounds -1 per attack.
The wording suggests that only ranged attacks reduce the duration, although this is ambiguous.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So potentially you could cast produce flame twice to get it in both hands. Then use rapid shot (+1), ITWF (+2), haste (+1), and 6 BAB (+1) to attack 6 times a round. And since they're touch attacks you might actually hit with most of them in spite of the -3 to -8 net penalties. Starting on round 3 but you could extend it and cast it right before entering a dungeon for example. At most 6d6+6 and less after misses so not that special.


Casting another spell while holding the charge on a touch spell dissipates the touch spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#touchSpellsinCombat).
You can get around that with Spell Flower (SpC), but it's only got a duration of 1 round/level and isn't on the druid list.
Even then it's still limited: you could cast Produce Flame twice, but unless you have more than 2 hands you couldn't cast any other spells without dissipating one of them.

[BowStreetRunner]

The wording suggests that only ranged attacks reduce the duration, although this is ambiguous.
It's not so much the wording that suggests this, as it is the placement of the sentence that makes it appear that way to some people. The first sentence in the paragraph states that the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. The following sentence details the touch attack mechanics. The next three sentences detail the hurled flame mechanics. Then the last two sentences in the paragraph explain about attacks reducing the duration.

If you believe that the last two sentences only apply to the previous three sentences and not the entire paragraph, then it could be interpreted that only ranged attacks affect the duration. If that were the intent though, why not put the ranged mechanics in their own paragraph? The sentence states 'each attack' and not 'each ranged attack', and is in the same paragraph as the melee attack mechanics, so it seems more likely (RAI) it was intended to apply to both. And RAW, there is nothing here that can be said to unequivocally exclude melee attacks from that sentence so it should apply to both.

[Kurald Galain]

Casting another spell while holding the charge on a touch spell dissipates the touch spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#touchSpellsinCombat).
Yes, but as pointed out earlier, Produce Flame is not a touch spell.


It's not so much the wording that suggests this, as it is the placement of the sentence that makes it appear that way to some people.
Yeeees, that's why I just said it was ambiguous. :smallamused:

[Jormengand]

For [...] normal touch spells like chill touch, still no iteratives on first round. (barring quicken spell or the like)

Technically, this is correct, but highly misleading: any weaponlike spell with a duration of instantaneous that allows multiple attacks allows you to make them all immediately at your full base attack bonus (according to the rules in RC on weaponlike spells), so not "Iteratives" so much as "A lot like Scorching Ray." It's clearly not intended to do that but it's also entirely unclear what it is meant to do.