conjure ice beast + stuff

[jdizzlean]

since you're technically summoning from SNA's list, does ring of the beast stack for the purpose of using a lower level slot to attain the higher spell?

also, does ashbound summoning apply to gain double duration and the +3 to attack IIRC?

I see that it states it functions like Summon Monster otherwise, but it seems a grey area...

[Khedrac]

With conjure ice beast you are not technically summoning at all - it's a conjuration spell not a summon spell and none of the summon boosts apply.

[jdizzlean]

well phooey!

:furious:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Both are specific to Summon Nature's Ally, so even if Conjure Ice Beast was a summoning spell they wouldn't work with it.
It's also Conjuration (Creation), not Conjuration (Summoning), so more general summon boosters like Augment Summoning don't work either.

Things that boost (Creation) spells (that don't work on summon spells) will work though, like the CL bonus of the Creation domain or the extend effect of Words of Creation.


With conjure ice beast you are not technically summoning at all - it's a conjuration spell not a summon spell and none of the summon boosts apply.
They're both conjuration spells. CIB just has the (Creation) descriptor instead of (Summoning), that's the important bit.

[Thurbane]

I've often wondered why they set the Conjure Ice Beast chain to be Conjuration (Creation); I mean, sure, it makes sense since you're creating the beast from ice, but it's puts the spell out of line with Summon Nature's Ally, Summon Monster, Summon Desert Ally, Summon Undead etc.

Since it can't benefit from most of the boosts available to those spells, maybe they should have given it a longer duration or something to compensate. Maybe double duration in cold conditions?

Actually, just re-read the spells. You get to pick from both the SNA/SM lists; although the Ice Beast template wipes out special attack and special qualities...

[Darrin]

I believe what the OP is suggesting is what happens when you interpret this sentence from the spell description somewhat broadly:

"In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I."

Hence, can you use Augment Summoning with the CIB line? Golden desert honey? And so forth.

[Thurbane]

I believe what the OP is suggesting is what happens when you interpret this sentence from the spell description somewhat broadly:

"In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I."

Hence, can you use Augment Summoning with the CIB line? Golden desert honey? And so forth.

I would say that's a DMs call. IMHO, I'd allow it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I believe what the OP is suggesting is what happens when you interpret this sentence from the spell description somewhat broadly:

"In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I."

Hence, can you use Augment Summoning with the CIB line? Golden desert honey? And so forth.

I'd say that's reaching more than just a bit. That's the kind of ruleslawyering that gives optimizers a bad name.
"functions like summon monster" doesn't mean "is affected by things that affect summon monster despite not being a summoning spell".
If they wanted that they would've just added the (Summoning) descriptor.

And if you go for that argument you also have to accept the downsides of it, which is where i imagine most supporters of the "liberal" interpretation will start screeching "but it's not a summoning spell!".
Like your ice beasts being blocked by PfE and other things that negatively affect summons. Either it's affected by all things that affect Summon Monster or none of them. But it'd still be a houserule imo.

[jdizzlean]

it just seems silly that you're pulling from the same list as SNA, but you can't apply anything that relates to SNA. It's also silly that it's so massively OP as compared to anything you can get from SNA w/ the exception of the duration..

[RoboEmperor]

it just seems silly that you're pulling from the same list as SNA, but you can't apply anything that relates to SNA. It's also silly that it's so massively OP as compared to anything you can get from SNA w/ the exception of the duration..

Exactly.

1. Cast Conjure Ice Beast with the 1d6 Ice Aura exclusively at low levels. Absolutely nothing comes even close. My level 1 cleric with the creation domain literally solo'd entire adventure modules by spamming Conjure Ice Beast. A level 1 spell that does 3d6 cold damage, 3 melee attacks, and creates an unkillable bullet magnet for one spell slot is ludicrously OP.
2. Grab all the summoning boosting feats.
3. Higher levels when SLAs start to matter, start casting summon monster or nature's ally.

[Bullet06320]

"In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I."

its that line right there that creates the specific vs general here, if summon monster I is a summoning spell, this spell is treated as a summoning spell despite being a calling spell and eligible for anything that affects summon spells, both positive and negative effects

that's the ruling at my table, and how we play it, but as with anything else, DM call on how its ruled at that table

[RoboEmperor]

"In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I."

its that line right there that creates the specific vs general here, if summon monster I is a summoning spell, this spell is treated as a summoning spell despite being a calling spell and eligible for anything that affects summon spells, both positive and negative effects

that's the ruling at my table, and how we play it, but as with anything else, DM call on how its ruled at that table

The problem here is that Augment Summoning doesn't call out summon monster by name.

"Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it. "

If Augment summoning said "add +4 strength to creatures summoned with summon monster line of spells" then you might have a case, but it doesn't. It says any creature conjured with a summon spell and conjure ice beast is a creation spell.

Specific v.s. General? Yeah it's like summon monster except where noted, and it explicitly notes conjure ice beast as a creation spell.

[Bullet06320]

can summon monster I be affected by augment summoning, yup
that's the test we use

[Uncle Pine]

1. Cast Conjure Ice Beast with the 1d6 Ice Aura exclusively at low levels. Absolutely nothing comes even close. My level 1 cleric with the creation domain literally solo'd entire adventure modules by spamming Conjure Ice Beast. A level 1 spell that does 3d6 cold damage, 3 melee attacks, and creates an unkillable bullet magnet for one spell slot is ludicrously OP.

What's the 1d6 ice aura?

[jdizzlean]

What's the 1d6 ice aura?

conjure ice beast lets you summon anything off the SNA/SM lists and apply the ice beast template, which does a number of things, 1 of which is it lets you choose between a few extra abilities, 1 of which is that they gain an aura that does 1d6 cold damage per summon, so imagine that w/ multiple wolves which are SNA 1, which means 1d3/1d4+1 extra wolves

[RoboEmperor]

can summon monster I be affected by augment summoning, yup
that's the test we use

What you do at your table is your business and letting summoning stuff affect conjure ice beast is not an unreasonable house rule, but it is a house rule. There is no changing this fact. No amount of creative reading or rule lawyering will change this fact. It is unambiguous and clear as day that summoning perks do not affect conjure ice beast.


What's the 1d6 ice aura?

It's one of the four special abilities of ice beasts, the best one IMO. At spell level 3, summon 4 ice wolves doing 1d6 cold damage each in a 10ft aura every round. At CL5 that's 5 rounds of 4d6 ice damage for a total of 20d6 cold damage, from one level 3 spell. It's amazing. Downside is even the slightest amount of cold damage resistance will render this worthless. In that case though you choose the engulf ability.


conjure ice beast lets you summon anything off the SNA/SM lists and apply the ice beast template, which does a number of things, 1 of which is it lets you choose between a few extra abilities, 1 of which is that they gain an aura that does 1d6 cold damage per summon, so imagine that w/ multiple wolves which are SNA 1, which means 1d3/1d4+1 extra wolves

You are incorrect. Conjure Ice Beast has no randomness for multiple summoning. You always summon 1, 2, or 4 creatures. Never a d3 or a d4.

[Uncle Pine]

conjure ice beast lets you summon anything off the SNA/SM lists and apply the ice beast template, which does a number of things, 1 of which is it lets you choose between a few extra abilities, 1 of which is that they gain an aura that does 1d6 cold damage per summon, so imagine that w/ multiple wolves which are SNA 1, which means 1d3/1d4+1 extra wolves


It's one of the four special abilities of ice beasts, the best one IMO. At spell level 3, summon 4 ice wolves doing 1d6 cold damage each in a 10ft aura every round. At CL5 that's 5 rounds of 4d6 ice damage for a total of 20d6 cold damage, from one level 3 spell. It's amazing. Downside is even the slightest amount of cold damage resistance will render this worthless. In that case though you choose the engulf ability.

Cool! I had missed that because I was just looking at the spells and not the template, thanks for pointing that out.

[jdizzlean]

You are incorrect. Conjure Ice Beast has no randomness for multiple summoning. You always summon 1, 2, or 4 creatures. Never a d3 or a d4.

honestly, now that I can't optimize it right next to my summoner based druid, i hate the spell and didn't read it that closely, thanks though, that just means when i play the next character in my aresenal, a cleric, that I'll definately be taking this...

[RoboEmperor]

honestly, now that I can't optimize it right next to my summoner based druid, i hate the spell and didn't read it that closely, thanks though, that just means when i play the next character in my aresenal, a cleric, that I'll definately be taking this...

Again at low levels, no matter how much you buff your summoning spells, Conjure Ice Beast is superior by far, so even if you build your druid with summon enhancing stuff, I recommend you still cast conjure ice beast. At higher levels SNA is definitely better so switch to SNA later and use conjure ice beast now.

[sleepyphoenixx]

it just seems silly that you're pulling from the same list as SNA, but you can't apply anything that relates to SNA.
Have you considered that that may be intended as a balancing factor?


It's also silly that it's so massively OP as compared to anything you can get from SNA w/ the exception of the duration..

That's only really true for SNA/SM 1 and maybe 2. And even then not really.

Conjure Ice Beast does one thing really well at low levels, and that's making meatshields.
The bonus hp constructs get exceeds what non-constructs gain from Con at those levels by a pretty big margin and construct immunities are nice.
The cold aura is nice at low levels too, but 1d6 cold damage loses its value really fast as you level up.

On the downside Ice Beasts:
1. have no Int, no skills and lose most feats.
2. can't fly
3. are all vulnerable to fire (situational, but still)
4. lose all special attacks and qualities - that includes stuff like pounce, poison, improved grab, any resistances from the Celestial/Fiendish template, scent, rage and so on. A lot of summons have really good special attacks and qualities, so this is definitely one that hurts.
5. Ice Beasts have all bad saves, no Con score and a Wis of 10. So their saving throws suck hard.

So yes, at low levels Ice Beasts are really good at tanking hp damage and dealing guaranteed damage without having to make attack rolls, but that's basically it. At everything else they suck.
And that's comparing CIB to baseline SNA/SM. A dedicated summoner will get a lot more out of those and they don't apply to CIB, as this thread has discussed.

[Thurbane]

In my game last night, I just realized that the Summon Desert Ally spells work quite similarly to Conjure Ice Beast: they summon a creature with a template that makes them a construct (there is a Sand Shaper in the party).

Admittedly, the Dustform template isn't quite as good as ice Beast...

[Darrin]

In my game last night, I just realized that the Summon Desert Ally spells work quite similarly to Conjure Ice Beast: they summon a creature with a template that makes them a construct (there is a Sand Shaper in the party).


It's also in the actual summoning subschool instead of the creation subschool, so items/feats/effects that interact with summons will still work with desert allies.