Bladesinger help

[Raif]

Hey all,

Will be starting a new campaign soon and have thought of playing a Bladesinger. This will be a pathfinder campaign translated to 5e with some access to magic items, but no shop. The campaign goes to level 17, which most likely we'll get to (have an awesome group). It is also a City campaign

We all get a free level 1 feat, point buy, and I like playing elves. I'm trying to get the stats to line up and have looked over a lot of spells to get the class to work so I'd love some help.

My thoughts were as follows:

Free 1st level feat - Tough or Dual Wield (if I go fighter level 1) or Elven Accuracy
Feat at level 8 - Warcaster

Starting stats are where I'm having some issues, as I have thought of either:

8/16/14/16/10/10

or

8/17/14/16/10/8 with Elven Accuracy

If I start Fighter I'd probably take the dual fighting style or dueling. I plan on taking/trying to get the following spells:

1st
Find Familiar
Mage Armor
Shield
Identify
Absorb Elements
Detect Magic

2nd
Shadow Blade
Misty Step
Suggestion

3rd
Haste
Fireball
Counter Spell
Dispel Magic
Sleet Storm

4th
Polymorph
Banishment
Wall of Fire
Greater Invisibility
Watery Sphere,

5th
Synaptic Static
Wall of Force
Animate Objects
Bigby's Hand
Telekinesis


6th
Contingency


7th
Forcecage
Reverse Gravity

8th
Illusory Dragon

9th (up in the air)
Wish
Forsight
True Polymorph

I would love some help getting this more solid and better optimized. I'm not sure about the spell selection and the starting stats at all, and whether or not it really is beneficial to get fighter in there for the dual wielding.

The aim is to be good in melee, but also control the battlefield.

[Quoz]

If you're looking for at will battlefield control, I would look at grabbing a whip and spell sniper for 10 foot reach booming blade. Since most enemies will need to move to attack, your damage would probably be on par with dual wielding and save the feat. Also a great way to pick up eldritch blast. If you can convince your GM to swap racial weapon proficiency you can probably get away without the fighter dip.

Dual wielding is often a trap. You're usually better off with just raising dex. Same boost to AC, about the same to damage, and you get all the things that go with dex. Since you are looking to max dex and int, I would put it on the back burner. Elvish advantage can be amazing for you, especially since you can gain advantage off your familiar so easily. But it does nothing for saving throw spells, so keep that in mind.

If you want to go hard for melee combat and the bladesinger feel, go champion 3/bladesinger X. Upcast Shadow Blade with elven accuracy and expanded crit range is just brutally mean.

[Raif]

If you're looking for at will battlefield control, I would look at grabbing a whip and spell sniper for 10 foot reach booming blade. Since most enemies will need to move to attack, your damage would probably be on par with dual wielding and save the feat. Also a great way to pick up eldritch blast. If you can convince your GM to swap racial weapon proficiency you can probably get away without the fighter dip.

Dual wielding is often a trap. You're usually better off with just raising dex. Same boost to AC, about the same to damage, and you get all the things that go with dex. Since you are looking to max dex and int, I would put it on the back burner. Elvish advantage can be amazing for you, especially since you can gain advantage off your familiar so easily. But it does nothing for saving throw spells, so keep that in mind.

If you want to go hard for melee combat and the bladesinger feel, go champion 3/bladesinger X. Upcast Shadow Blade with elven accuracy and expanded crit range is just brutally mean.

I would prefer to not multiclass at all for this character, it doesn't match up with his story so this is good to know!

The other members of my party are melee, so the booming blade control won't help a ton after the first round or so, but that's not a terrible idea.

I felt that the bladesinger is kind of tight on the feat aspect as I wanted both dex and int to 20 which eats up 4 ASI's leaving me with my first free feat and 1 ASI. Tough and Warcaster where the ones I figured would be best. Warcaster for obvious reasons and tough to help out from level 1 for some extra padding.

As for going hard melee, not so much. I just want to be effective so I figured grabbing Shadow Blade and having a ring of spell storing (eventually) on my familiar and having him cast haste would be more than enough for that. And at level 11 grabbing tensers transformation for going super saiyan.

Is the stat arrangement OK? Which would you recommend or is there a better one? Point buy or stat array is available to me. Also, any spells for control you recommend to keep an eye out for?

[Citan]

Hi!

Well, I'll suggest a mix between both of your ideas.

1. Start Fighter: for your concept, this is a worth delay in spellcasting mainly for the dual-wielding and Constitution prof: grab Two-Weapon Fighting Style.

2. Start with Elven Accuracy as a High-Elf, but put it in INT instead, and maximize stats by also dumping CHA to get a starting...
8 / 17(15+2) / 14 / 17(15+1+1) / 10 / 8.
That way you can use your first ASI to bump both DEX and INT to 18. :)

That's as maximized as you can make it.

An alternative would be to go pure Bladesinger, with starting 16 in DEX, INT and CON by putting respectively 14/15/15 pre-racials and grab Resilient: Constitution.

Honestly the starting level of Fighter is good only for two things: Constitution proficiency and TWF style (You really don't care about armor proficiencies, and Elve races get the weapon proficiencies you care about).
First can be gotten other ways as I just illustrated
Second is great but you may find many other ways to use your bonus action anyways, between Expeditious Retreat, Shadow Blade, Flaming Sphere, Misty Step, etc... So it may not be worth the investment, except if you really want your main schtick to get as many attacks as possible every turn (in which case it's indeed great: paired with Haste and Extra Attack it means at level 7 you dish out 4 attacks per turn without big risk of getting concentration broken: Mobile feat would be the feat to get at level 4 or 8 though).

So it's up to you whether you want or not the TWF. If you plan on being a "self-buffing martial" and work up number of attacks it's worth it, and the way is clear: start Fighter, learn Mirror Image and Haste, grab Mobile as early as you can.
If you plan on using "normal" spells or Shadow Blade (which is only one weapon) or weapon cantrips (which means no off-hand attack) regularly, probably not. In which case going the "Resilient: Constitution" way will be probably better, because no delay in Wizard progression.

Both ways are equally good: you'll have many other ways to use spells and bonus action anyways, so choose freely. ;)
The only feat you'll really want for someone that goes close to melee is the Mobile feat, or any spell that makes OA against you irrelevant such as Greater Invisibility (cannot see you = no OA).

Also, don't fret too much about survivability: as long as you use hit&run tactics with the relevant spell/features, between high base AC and Shield, you won't be in too much risk.
Just don't try and tank with this character unless you are ready to sink in many resources... (Shield + Mirror Image + Blur for example).

In short:
1. Choose your "go-to" spell / playstyle and plan around...
- 4 attacks? Haste, Start Fighter (TWF).
- Greater Invisibility? Fighter or not Fighter both ways work equally well.
- Shadow Blade? Start Wizard.

2. Whatever way you go, you should have Constitution proficiency by level 8, and Mobile feat possibly if you don't go Greater Invisibility, although Elven Accuracy is the other priority.
(Normally thanks to the free feat you could have Constitution AND Elven Accuracy at level 4).

3. Never stay in melee unless you are the only one left that can do the job and have many slots left, always keep Shield and Mirror Image learned and prepared. :)

Have fun!

[Raif]

Those are some very good points.

Well, I will definitely be going the shadow blade route with greater invis or the like. Party is going to be a druid, hexblade, rogue, 1 undecided, and myself.

I do like that first stat progression, lets me get 3 feats and 20's in both dex and int.

start 8/17/14/17/10/8, free elven accuracy
level 4 ASi in int and dex
level 8 res con or warcaster or tough
other ASI's on Dex/Int
last ASI on res con or warcaster or tough

I really would love tough tbh, but without elven accuracy can't get a 3rd feat as I'd need 4 asi's to get max stats. Got to make some tough decisions if between those 3 feats then.

Any spell suggestions?

[Specter]

FYI, you can't use Shadow Blade and Greater Invisibility together.

Also, you don't need to bother with Fighter if you dedicate your first feat to Resilient (CON).

[Raif]

FYI, you can't use Shadow Blade and Greater Invisibility together.

Also, you don't need to bother with Fighter if you dedicate your first feat to Resilient (CON).

True, but a familiar with a ring of spellstoring can cast greater invis on me, same with haste =)

And yes, I'm forgoing fighter. Is resilient constitution so important if i get warcaster?

And first feat will be Elven Accuracy, level 4 ASI split between dex and int, then either warcaster or resilient constitution at level 8.

[Specter]

True, but a familiar with a ring of spellstoring can cast greater invis on me, same with haste =)

And yes, I'm forgoing fighter. Is resilient constitution so important if i get warcaster?

And first feat will be Elven Accuracy, level 4 ASI split between dex and int, then either warcaster or resilient constitution at level 8.

I'm not sure familiars can wear or even use rings/other magic items by RAW. Check with your DM.

As for Resilient, yes, it's important. Poison, necromancy, cold and friends called, they want you to make a save.

[Raif]

I'm not sure familiars can wear or even use rings/other magic items by RAW. Check with your DM.

As for Resilient, yes, it's important. Poison, necromancy, cold and friends called, they want you to make a save.

They can wear items. For example from the ring of spell storing:


Any creature can cast a spell of 1st through 5th level into the ring by touching the ring as the spell is cast. The spell has no effect, other than to be stored in the ring. If the ring can’t hold the spell, the spell is expended without effect. The level of the slot used to cast the spell determines how much space it uses.

While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it. The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell attack bonus, and spellcasting ability of the original caster, but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell. The spell cast from the ring is no longer stored in it, freeing up space.

Emphasis is important. Familiars are creatures, therefore they can use the item to cast the spell.

For resilient - I meant is it so required if I have warcaster for concentration checks. For those saves, yea, but there's also dex saves that can be pretty harsh too.

[Biggstick]

FYI, you can't use Shadow Blade and Greater Invisibility together.

Also, you don't need to bother with Fighter if you dedicate your first feat to Resilient (CON).

I really want to emphasize the not needing to bother with Fighter. If you were playing this as a Half Elf, I might see why you want martial weapon proficiencies, but you're an Elf, and slowing down your spellcasting progression when you're a Wizard first and a melee combatant second is something you shouldn't be doing.


Those are some very good points.

Well, I will definitely be going the shadow blade route with greater invis or the like. Party is going to be a druid, hexblade, rogue, 1 undecided, and myself.

I do like that first stat progression, lets me get 3 feats and 20's in both dex and int.

start 8/17/14/17/10/8, free elven accuracy
level 4 ASi in int and dex
level 8 res con or warcaster or tough
other ASI's on Dex/Int
last ASI on res con or warcaster or tough

I really would love tough tbh, but without elven accuracy can't get a 3rd feat as I'd need 4 asi's to get max stats. Got to make some tough decisions if between those 3 feats then.

Any spell suggestions?

Start and stay as a single-classed Wizard

8
15+2
13
15+1
12
8

Level 1 bonus feat should be Elven Accuracy or Resilient Constitution.
Level 4 ASI should be whatever you didn't take as your bonus feat.
Level 8 ASI should be +2 Intelligence.

At this point you have a decision to make as to whether you want feats or you want to max out your stats. You'll know at this point if you need more Int/Dex, or if you really need something like a utility feat (Lucky/Alert/Mobile/etc). We're picking up Resilient Constitution early in the build, as it's important for both your HP and your saving throws. You don't want to wait to pick up this bonus to saving throws until the late game, because you'll be dead before then. The reason we're picking up Resilient Constitution over Warcaster is we don't necessarily need to be in a position to be making opportunity attacks, nor do we need to be in a position in which our hands are full. Now concentration checks are something that will most certainly be present, but Bladesinging plus proficiency in Con saving throws will generally keep you in auto-save territory as it is. If you're taking so much damage as to not be in auto-save territory, you're in the wrong place, and you don't have enough of an HP bar to be there anymore. (Keep in mind you have amazing reactions to deal with damage like this, including Shield, Absorb Elements, and Counterspell, all of which are fantastic uses of your reaction instead of a Warcaster spell attack).

Spell choices are solid, but you seem to have 5 spells written down for 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells. You're only able to learn up to 4 before you're breaking into the next level of spells, so I'm curious how you're gaining these extra spells available. You also only have 6 spells chosen for 1st level, when you should have 8, and you only have 3 spells chosen for 2nd level spells when you should have 4. Anyways, on to spell choice.

Starting Cantrips: Firebolt, Chill Touch, Utility cantrip. (like Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, etc).
Level 4 Cantrip: Utility cantrip.

If we're fighting at range, we can use either a Longbow once we have two attacks (from Bladesinger 6) or we can use 120' range cantrips like Firebolt and Chill Touch. Few creatures are immune/resistant to both fire and necrotic damage, so it's a nice mix of damage. We aren't taking the weapon cantrips because if we're using a weapon we want to attack more then once. This is true both in melee range with a Shortsword (or Scimitar, or Whip, or whatever Dexterity/Finesse weapon you're using) or at range with a Longbow (which we're actually surprising good with having 18 Dexterity and two attacks at level 6).

First level spells: Absorb Elements, Comprehend Languages, Detect magic, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Mage Armor, Shield, and whatever else you're looking for.

Personally, I'd go with Disguise Self, Magic Missile, Protection from Evil/Good, or Feather Fall with this 8th 1st level spell choice. Whatever you decide to go with is up to you. I didn't choose Identify because of how rarely Identify ever comes up in a game, and how even more rarely the person casting it this early in the game actually has access to the 50gp (or is it 100gp) pearl required to cast the spell. If you think you'll get more then a single use out of it though, it could be important to you. Our choices are based on not only what's expected of a Wizard (Detect Magic, Find Familiar, and reading Languages), but on defensive options for self and a little bit of crowd control with Fog Cloud. This spell is a true equalizer in combat, as well as scales actually really well. Casting it in a higher level slot increases it's already decent size by an additional 20' radius per spell level. As a 3rd level spell, it has a 60' radius, which can absolutely remove all visibility for a large battlefield.

Second level spells: Shadow Blade, Invisibility and/or Misty Step, Phantasmal Force, and whatever else you're looking for.

The only selfish spell we're taking is Shadow Blade. Now when I say selfish, what I mean is that it only benefits you. When you're concentrating on Shadow Blade, that means you're not concentrating on something like Fog Cloud or Hypnotic Pattern; you're instead concentrating on a spell that will increase your damage output and your damage output alone. That is the only thing Shadow Blade can be used for, and because of that, and our rather limited spell additions (unless the DM is generous with spellbooks/scrolls) it's the only "selfish" spell we're going to choose to learn.

Misty Step is always amazing, but personally I have a preference for Invisibility. Having the capability to use it for out of combat scouting/stealthing/sneaking (which you're also going to potentially be decent at with 18 Dexterity) puts it above Misty Step for me, but you can easily take both spells. We're also choosing Phantasmal Force, as it's an Intelligence saving throw (a rarity) that can be used to defeat most single targets. If they fail the save, use the visual of an Iron Maiden to "trap" the enemy within the 10' illusion. They believe it's real, and can't see outside of it. Though they can move around, they technically won't be able to see, thus making creatures who attack it unseen attackers. Against creatures larger then a 10' square, simply create something with spikes around it that envelops their head. If a 10' image won't envelop their head, create an image that covers their eyes with spikes. Either way it goes, you have removed the ability to see for the creatures, are causing 1d6 damage per turn, and your allies have advantage on attack rolls against it while it has disadvantage on attack rolls against everyone else (and can't see to cast spells/abilities that require sight).

For our whatever else spells, I'm looking at things like Enlarge/Reduce, Blindness/Deafness, Detect Thoughts, Maxi's Earthern Grasp, Shatter, Web, and Spider Climb. It's really based on what you think you need. My 2nd level spell list would look like: Shadow Blade, Invisibility, Phantasmal Force, and Maxi's Earthern Grasp. Yes, yes, I know, a lot of concentration spells, but we're well prepared for many situations and have 1st level spell slots for personal protection.

Third level spells: Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball, Fly or Haste, Counterspell, and Dispel Magic.

Not as much variety here, and there are tons of spells I wish I could take. Your party expects you to have Counterspell and Dispel Magic, and you can take these two as your 6th level spells if you'd rather not wait on the big guns. The big decision that has to be made imo is if you want AOE crowd control or AOE damage. You'll know which is the stronger choice with your particular party hopefully by this point. As for the choice of Haste versus Fly, I think I'm one of the only folks that prefers Fly. A Bladesinger does well with Haste, I understand, but the utility Fly brings to not only yourself but to your party inside and outside of combat is something that I just can't overlook. So personally I'd go with Fireball and Fly, but you might decide to go something else. Either way is fine tbh.

Fourth level spells: Polymorph, Banishment, Greater Invisibility, and whatever else you're looking for.

Polymorph is obviously a no-brainer spell, as it's utility and combat use is pretty amazing. Banishment gives us another crowd control, of which we now hopefully have spells targeting at least 3 different saving throws. Greater Invisibility is something I see on every Bladesinger list, but I encourage you to consider casting it on someone else if they would benefit more from having advantage on attack rolls against targets (as long as the target doesn't have the ability to see invisible creatures through Blindsight/Truesight/Tremorsense/etc). The 4th spell choice should be something purely utility based, so things like Arcane Eye, Dimension Door, Hallucinatory Terrain, and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere all come to mind.

The fifth level and above spells aren't something I really want to go into detail over, as their value will be highly dependent on the type of campaign your DM is running. What I would encourage is that you choose spells that emphasize your ability as a Wizard and not as a melee combatant. The greatest part of playing a Bladesinger is that you're still a Wizard! You just happen to have a couple abilities to help you deal with melee should you get caught up in a group.

[Biggstick]

They can wear items. For example from the ring of spell storing:

Emphasis is important. Familiars are creatures, therefore they can use the item to cast the spell.

For resilient - I meant is it so required if I have warcaster for concentration checks. For those saves, yea, but there's also dex saves that can be pretty harsh too.

The Emphasis you're making is that any creature can cast a spell into it. It has nothing to do with a any creature being able to attune to the item, which is what I'd be looking at most in regards to a Ring of Spell Storing.

To answer the question, you'd look to the DMG, pages 136-138. These detail attunement. The part in which I'd focus in on for the Attunement part of the DMG is this.

"Attuning to an item requires a creature to spend a short rest focused on only that item while being in physical contact with it (this can't be the same short rest used to learn the item's properties). This focus can take the form of weapon practice (for a weapon), meditation (for a wondrous item), or some other appropriate activity. If the short rest is interuppted...."

Personally, I don't feel like the spirit drawn forth for the Find Familiar spell would be capable of going through the focus necessary to attune to a magic item. That's how I'd rule it in my game though, that a spirit is incapable of attuning to a magic item. If your DM is ok with it though, go for it.

As another aside, a Ring of Spell Storing is a Rare item. Would your fellow adventurers be willing to give this powerful magic item to you, when they could benefit from it even more so? In particular, your Hexblade PC is served well by having something they can store extra spells in. When I'm a Player myself, anything that can store spell slots should ideally go to the Warlock, as they're going to be the ones who can best charge/use said items due to their unique nature of spell slot usage.

Edit: Regarding Resilient Constitution versus Warcaster, it's going to provide you greater value as a Bladesinger to have Resilient Constitution compared to Warcaster. Warcaster is equivalent to about +5 on Concentration checks. Proficiency in Constitution saving throws, and the small bonus to it can increase your floor for saving throws to above DC 10 for your standard concentration checks. A level 9 Bladesinger with proficiency in Constitution saving throws (value of +4), 14 Constitution (value of +2), and 18 Int (value of +4 while Bladesinging) has a bonus of 10 to it's concentration checks. This mean's you're guarenteed an 11 if you roll a 1 on your check. If you don't have proficiency in Constitution saving throws and instead have Warcaster, your total bonus to concentration checks is 6, and you have to roll at least a 4 to make the saving throw. Sure, it's unlikely that you'll fail, but you still have a chance of failure. With Resilient Constitution, you don't even have to make the roll, as the minimum roll will still allow you to maintain concentration versus any damage that's 23 or lower.

Which do you prefer, the unpredictability of Warcaster or the consistent dependable bonus of Resilient Constitution? Warcaster will serve you well for the early game as a Bladesinger, but as you push further into the mid/late game, Resilient Constitution will prove itself to be way more valuable.

If you're worried about Dexterity Saves, you have Absorb Elements, Counterspell, and a decent Dexterity score. Those are your tools against Dexterity saves.

[Citan]

True, but a familiar with a ring of spellstoring can cast greater invis on me, same with haste =)

And yes, I'm forgoing fighter. Is resilient constitution so important if i get warcaster?

And first feat will be Elven Accuracy, level 4 ASI split between dex and int, then either warcaster or resilient constitution at level 8.
Hey again ;)

I'm pretty sure that Rings of Spell Storing can hold up only up to 3rd level spell (but pretty =/= absolutely ;)), so Haste could work, not GI.

Resilient: Constitution is not "so important"... Unless it is, or rather until it is...
As far as concentration saves go, Warcaster is a much better feat than Resilient: Constitution to get early since advantage will work better than "just" +2 (while on the contrary, in the late levels since Resilient = proficiency it ends as a better bonus).
And you get other perks with Warcaster.

Now, with that said, there are many nasty effects targeting Constitution that creatures can try to put on you, especially as riders of melee attacks. Especially vampires, ghouls and similar creatures from what I remember. Like auto-injury every turn, preventing HP regain, auto-exhaustion...
Let's also not forget about a well-aimed Blindness that could make you very vulnerable. :)

As for Warcaster, besides concentration advantage...
- the "enable somatic even with both hands full"? Honestly I don't see any occasion in which you would really have any use of it: now that you are set on Shadow Blade, so no bonus action attack, I really don't see why you would hold anything in your other hand every turn. Nor why you would drop your main weapon. Meaning you could just draw/sheathe your focus or make a thrown weapon attack to free a hand when you need one to cast a spell.
In short, this benefit should be (much) less significant to you in general than it would be for other characters.

- Spell in place of OA also means using your reaction: it allows you to use Booming Blade, so it's great for that. But it also means no Shield / Counterspell that round, which may hurt.

>>> Warcaster is a fine choice indeed, but Resilient has some arguments too. I wouldn't tell whichever is better for you honestly, because too many unknown things. Which is why I'd argue that "don't choose, take both in the end". XD
Just kidding (or am I.)

More seriously: Warcaster is still probably the better choice simply because of better OA damage (BB) and probable scarcity of CON effects targeting you specifically,..
Unless of course you have a serious chance to encounter CON-targeting effects because of campaign settings (undead, casters!) or DM playstyle (your group likes challenge that regularly targets your weak spots).

In short, you have no way to know already whichever will be better for you, so don't wreck your mind right now trying to plan out.

What you laid for up to level 8 seems very good to me, so you'll have ample time to check your experience so far and decide then. ;)

As for spells...
I'll give an ample list, pick whatever you like...
Self: Mirror Image, Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, Greater Invisibility, Contingency.
Control: Web, Slow, Fear, Phantasmal Force, Wall of Fire, Wall of Force, Animate Objects.
Damage: Chromatic Bolt, Shatter, Fireball.
Other: Rope Trick, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Glyph of Warding, Phantom Steed.

[Raif]

The Emphasis you're making is that any creature can cast a spell into it. It has nothing to do with a any creature being able to attune to the item, which is what I'd be looking at most in regards to a Ring of Spell Storing.

To answer the question, you'd look to the DMG, pages 136-138. These detail attunement. The part in which I'd focus in on for the Attunement part of the DMG is this.

"Attuning to an item requires a creature to spend a short rest focused on only that item while being in physical contact with it (this can't be the same short rest used to learn the item's properties). This focus can take the form of weapon practice (for a weapon), meditation (for a wondrous item), or some other appropriate activity. If the short rest is interuppted...."

Personally, I don't feel like the spirit drawn forth for the Find Familiar spell would be capable of going through the focus necessary to attune to a magic item. That's how I'd rule it in my game though, that a spirit is incapable of attuning to a magic item. If your DM is ok with it though, go for it.

As another aside, a Ring of Spell Storing is a Rare item. Would your fellow adventurers be willing to give this powerful magic item to you, when they could benefit from it even more so? In particular, your Hexblade PC is served well by having something they can store extra spells in. When I'm a Player myself, anything that can store spell slots should ideally go to the Warlock, as they're going to be the ones who can best charge/use said items due to their unique nature of spell slot usage.

Edit: Regarding Resilient Constitution versus Warcaster, it's going to provide you greater value as a Bladesinger to have Resilient Constitution compared to Warcaster. Warcaster is equivalent to about +5 on Concentration checks. Proficiency in Constitution saving throws, and the small bonus to it can increase your floor for saving throws to above DC 10 for your standard concentration checks. A level 9 Bladesinger with proficiency in Constitution saving throws (value of +4), 14 Constitution (value of +2), and 18 Int (value of +4 while Bladesinging) has a bonus of 10 to it's concentration checks. This mean's you're guarenteed an 11 if you roll a 1 on your check. If you don't have proficiency in Constitution saving throws and instead have Warcaster, your total bonus to concentration checks is 6, and you have to roll at least a 4 to make the saving throw. Sure, it's unlikely that you'll fail, but you still have a chance of failure. With Resilient Constitution, you don't even have to make the roll, as the minimum roll will still allow you to maintain concentration versus any damage that's 23 or lower.

Which do you prefer, the unpredictability of Warcaster or the consistent dependable bonus of Resilient Constitution? Warcaster will serve you well for the early game as a Bladesinger, but as you push further into the mid/late game, Resilient Constitution will prove itself to be way more valuable.

If you're worried about Dexterity Saves, you have Absorb Elements, Counterspell, and a decent Dexterity score. Those are your tools against Dexterity saves.

I'll agree with the fact that a hexblade or a party member might be able to use it more sure. However, for the details of attunement you skipped over the part of "Attuning to an item requires a creature" and the familiar called by find familiar is a creature.

Also - both AL and Wizards disagree with your interpretation:

AL Ruling: http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/DDAL_FAQv6-1.pdf

Can my familiar attune to a magic item?

Yes. However, any item attuned to an NPC under your control (such as, but not limited to, familiars, beast companions, simulacrums, conjured creatures, hirelings, lickspittles, etc.) counts against both the controlling character’s limit of three attuned items and the character’s permanent magic item count

Jeremy Crawford Sage Advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/02/11/do-magic-items-attuned-to-a-familiar-count-against-the-arcanists-total/

However, feel free to rule it as you see fit.

I get what you mean about Resilient: Constitution. I'm still unsure at the order, because I don't think I want to have a 16 in intelligence till level 8 as your stat progression has.

Looks like I'll have to give up Tough =( I really wanted to try to fit that feat in. I thought about maybe taking that 1st level in fighter anyway, as according to the DM we're doing milestone leveling and will be 2nd level by the 1st session, and probably 3rd by the 4th.

[Biggstick]

I get what you mean about Resilient: Constitution. I'm still unsure at the order, because I don't think I want to have a 16 in intelligence till level 8 as your stat progression has.

Looks like I'll have to give up Tough =( I really wanted to try to fit that feat in. I thought about maybe taking that 1st level in fighter anyway, as according to the DM we're doing milestone leveling and will be 2nd level by the 1st session, and probably 3rd by the 4th.

Even if you were to go Fighter first, you would still need to take Resilient Wisdom. The Fighter level isn't doing anything for improving your ability to act as a Wizard.

An example in which a Fighter level to start with before going Wizard is solid is if you were playing an Abjuration Wizard or War Wizard. Grabbing Heavy Armor, a Shield, the Defense fighting style, and Second Wind on an Abjuration/War Wizard makes for a tanky ball of Wizard.

If you don't want a 16 in Intelligence, swap Elven Accuracy and +2 Intelligence then. It's an easy enough thing to swap around.

[Specter]

If you don't want a 16 in Intelligence, swap Elven Accuracy and +2 Intelligence then. It's an easy enough thing to swap around.

Yeah. Elven Accuracy is better if you're playing high-damage-attack builds (like Paladins or archers with Sharpshooter), or people who crit big. Bladesinger's deal is not uber damage, but strong defenses and clever solutions with spells. If you already have advantage, you're probably going to hit any monster who doesn't have an insane AC.

[Biggstick]

Yeah. Elven Accuracy is better if you're playing high-damage-attack builds (like Paladins or archers with Sharpshooter), or people who crit big. Bladesinger's deal is not uber damage, but strong defenses and clever solutions with spells. If you already have advantage, you're probably going to hit any monster who doesn't have an insane AC.

OP seemed particularly interested in utilizing the feat as far as I could tell. That's why I allocated and suggested my build as such.

Personally I look at Bladesinger as you've described, as a Wizard with strong melee defenses. I would build mine more akin to a traditional Wizard and look at my Bladesinger parts as ways to avoid using Spell resources to get out of a bad situation.

[Raif]

I actually dont really want elven accuracy, it was just the only way i could see to have:
18 dex
18 int
2 feats (elven advantage, resilient con)

By level 8. To be frank the feats i want are warcaster, tough, mobile, resilient con.

My goal with the bladesinger is to be in melee and use spells and such in melee, but not be a melee god, unless i pop tensers transformation or shadow blade. Ideally, i would like to be dancing around the druid and hexblade with spellwork, and use bladework on turns where i dont want to spend resources. I see bladesinger as a wizard who uses melee to extend resources.

[DivisibleByZero]

I actually dont really want elven accuracy, it was just the only way i could see to have:
18 dex
18 int
2 feats (elven advantage, resilient con)

By level 8. To be frank the feats i want are warcaster, tough, mobile, resilient con.

Can't have it all. So the first thing I'd cut would be War Caster or Res:Con. You don't need both.
The real question is whether you want Res:Con or War Caster, as they basically fill the same niche. One is specialized coverage, but offers additional benefits. The other is general coverage with no additional benefits.
The second question is whether you want Tough or Mobile more. Personally, I'd go with Mobile. And personally I'd consider taking it before I took WC or Res:Con, depending on how the campaign was going.

If you don't want Elven Accuracy then you could do the same thing with Observant.

[Specter]

Well, the only way to have more than 5 ASI's is by going Fighter 8 or Rogue 12, but then you're hardly a Bladesinger. I say focus on one feat you really need and run with it.

How I'd do it:
High Elf - STR8 DEX16 CON15 INT16 WIS10 CHA8

Level 4 - +2INT
Level 8 - Resilient (CON) (leaving my CON odd for this)
Level 12 - +2DEX
Level 16 - +2INT

Remember you don't need to have a maxed stat to be effective. You can also leave your INT at 18, and still enjoy all the spells that need no save or attack roll (which are many considering you're a Bladesinger).

[Biggstick]

Well, the only way to have more than 5 ASI's is by going Fighter 8 or Rogue 12, but then you're hardly a Bladesinger. I say focus on one feat you really need and run with it.

How I'd do it:
High Elf - STR8 DEX16 CON15 INT16 WIS10 CHA8

Level 4 - +2INT
Level 8 - Resilient (CON) (leaving my CON odd for this)
Level 12 - +2DEX
Level 16 - +2INT

Remember you don't need to have a maxed stat to be effective. You can also leave your INT at 18, and still enjoy all the spells that need no save or attack roll (which are many considering you're a Bladesinger).

I'd max out Intelligence at level 12, and then pick up Lucky or something of the like at 16, but I'd build my Bladesinger practically the same way.

It's a hard bit to swallow who want to max out stats and have feats, that you're really only going to get 1 or 2 feats for the entirety of your character's career. Ultimately though I think it's a good thing, as feats when properly utilized can absolutely be what your character is built around to showcase.

[Citan]

I actually dont really want elven accuracy, it was just the only way i could see to have:
18 dex
18 int
2 feats (elven advantage, resilient con)

By level 8. To be frank the feats i want are warcaster, tough, mobile, resilient con.

My goal with the bladesinger is to be in melee and use spells and such in melee, but not be a melee god, unless i pop tensers transformation or shadow blade. Ideally, i would like to be dancing around the druid and hexblade with spellwork, and use bladework on turns where i dont want to spend resources. I see bladesinger as a wizard who uses melee to extend resources.
Well, in that case, I'd say Mobile and Resilient: Constitution are your better choices if you want to dart in and out while combining spells and melee.
IF you are Mobile, it means you have a much better chance of going close enough to hit and back enough to safety without any chance of losing concentration.

As said before, Resilient Constitution is of lesser utility than Warcaster when taken early, but ends better. So if you take only one, since you woudldn't get profit from Warcaster's "spell as OA" often anyways (because you went away yourself in the first place) definitely pick Resilient.

Also, I'd be really wary about not getting at least a 18 in INT, and probably 20. I'd daresay getting 20 INT first is actually more important for you than getting 20 DEX first because that added INT means +1 "base Concentration success", +1 spell prepared, +1 on spell DC.
+1 DEX influences your Initiative (+1 not that big a deal), attacks rolls (you totally don't care much about that, or in other words, it's really an acceptable loss).
Both affects AC (immediately) and damage (later for INT) so it's a wash.

So in that case I'd suggest the following:
High-Elf with Resilient: Constitution as starting feat,
8 / 16 / 16 / 16 / 10 / 8.
Pick Mobile at 4th, bump INT at 8.
Or if you want higher starting DEX and INT...
Start with 17 / 14 / 17 with Elven Accuracy, bump both at 4, pick Resilient: Constitution at 8...

Those are the two only ways I see right now without dip. :)

You have a real competition for ASI that is for sure... You'll have to choice between maxed stats or many feats. ^^
I'd say though that you can easily live with "only" 18 DEX for your whole career. :)

[Raif]

Well, in that case, I'd say Mobile and Resilient: Constitution are your better choices if you want to dart in and out while combining spells and melee.
IF you are Mobile, it means you have a much better chance of going close enough to hit and back enough to safety without any chance of losing concentration.

As said before, Resilient Constitution is of lesser utility than Warcaster when taken early, but ends better. So if you take only one, since you woudldn't get profit from Warcaster's "spell as OA" often anyways (because you went away yourself in the first place) definitely pick Resilient.

Also, I'd be really wary about not getting at least a 18 in INT, and probably 20. I'd daresay getting 20 INT first is actually more important for you than getting 20 DEX first because that added INT means +1 "base Concentration success", +1 spell prepared, +1 on spell DC.
+1 DEX influences your Initiative (+1 not that big a deal), attacks rolls (you totally don't care much about that, or in other words, it's really an acceptable loss).
Both affects AC (immediately) and damage (later for INT) so it's a wash.

So in that case I'd suggest the following:
High-Elf with Resilient: Constitution as starting feat,
8 / 16 / 16 / 16 / 10 / 8.
Pick Mobile at 4th, bump INT at 8.
Or if you want higher starting DEX and INT...
Start with 17 / 14 / 17 with Elven Accuracy, bump both at 4, pick Resilient: Constitution at 8...

Those are the two only ways I see right now without dip. :)

You have a real competition for ASI that is for sure... You'll have to choice between maxed stats or many feats. ^^
I'd say though that you can easily live with "only" 18 DEX for your whole career. :)

Yea, I think that's the best way to do it.

will go 8/17/14/17/10/8 and start with elven advantage as I'll have advantage a lot due to flanking rules. Bump it up with a +1 to int and dex at 4, then go res con at 8 (or warcaster as I'll have an idea by then what's better for the campaign), mobile at 12 and 20 int at 16. Let's me cast spells and attack well enough. I feel that the 16/16/16 start will make me a wizard who just uses the bladesinger features to protect themselves at range, which is something I don't want to do.

Having an 18 in your main stats is something I'm pretty comfy with. Been playing a sorlock who has 18 in charisma in PotA and they're level 8 and won't get that 20 till level 10.

Thanks for all the help!

[Citan]

Glad you are set and peachy now. ;)

Have fun, and don't hesitate to come back and tell us how it worked for you. Real feedback is not so common after all. ^^

[Matrix_Walker]

I just started playing a blade singer, and I'm in a similar quandary over how to proceed. Rolled really well, getting 3 17s! I went Eladrin Elf, giving me...

DEX 19 (17+2) - CON 17 - INT 18 (17+1)

So I'm thinking of

ASI INT+2
Elven Accuracy (DEX+1)
Resilient CON (CON +1)
Mobile or Tough

But I can't for the life of me decide on the order to do them in.

[Raif]

I just started playing a blade singer, and I'm in a similar quandary over how to proceed. Rolled really well, getting 3 17s! I went Eladrin Elf, giving me...

DEX 19 (17+2) - CON 17 - INT 18 (17+1)

So I'm thinking of

ASI INT+2
Elven Accuracy (DEX+1)
Resilient CON (CON +1)
Mobile or Tough

But I can't for the life of me decide on the order to do them in.

Nice rolls! Wish I could have rolled for my stats, might have made my decisions easier.

In your case I would totally go Resilient Con first so you can round out that con modifier for more health on level ups and then mobile at level 8. After a lot of thinking about tough, i realized that with all the defenses that the bladesinger has such as insane AC (21 AC for you while bladesinging with mage armor at level 2, 26 with shield. 23 at level 16 while bladesinging and 28 with shield), song of defense and absorb elements, you're pretty good with your HP and not being hit.

As a lot of people mentioned in this thread, 18's are really OK for most of your career, if not all the way. You can definitely put off getting 20's in your main stats till later and get those feats done.

Mobile will help get you out of a lot of trouble if you plan on going into melee, especially with your 50 feet of movement while bladesinging.

After talking to my own DM, I also realized that Warcaster, while super useful, really is dependent on your DM's style. I have 1 DM who doesn't really move his enemies so we don't get too many AoO's so warcasters main draw is not great in that game. Another DM for a different game I play does move his stuff around a lot, so in that game Warcaster could work better than Res:Con.

So in all:
Level 4 - Res Con
Level 8 - Mobile
Level 12 - Elven Accuracy or 2 INT depending on your playstyle (melee focused/caster)
Level 16 - Whatever you didn't take before

By level 16 you have 3 major feats and 20's in INT and Dex, which is amazing. Leaves you 1 free feat at level 19 (if you make it this far at all).

[Ellisthion]

I only have experience playing Bladesinger at low levels (<10) but here's my thoughts, if it helps.

I'm assuming your campaign is going to be very different from the kind of campaigns I'm used to (no Teleport Circle/Sending/Tiny Hut on your spell list :smallsmile:) so my thoughts may not be relevant. :smallwink:

To me, your spell list looks like a Wizard spell list, with some minor lipservice to being a Bladesinger. You don't have defensive spells like Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield, etc. You don't have spells that benefit from melee positioning like Thunderwave or Lightning Bolt. And you've got spells like Sleet Storm which seem rather counterproductive to being a Bladesinger in somebody's face.

Maybe that's what you're going for - I mean, if you just spam the hell out of Shadow Blade then maybe you don't need any other options. But you'll be very much a glass cannon, so you need to be okay with that. Shield and Absorb Elements will only get you so far, and you'll have low hitpoints even if you multiclass.

You also have a LOT of spells on your list that need Concentration. IMO, you need to diversify.

My other concern is the prepared spells limit. You need to ASI Dex and maybe take Feats so your Int won't be maxed, so you'll have fewer prepared spells than a regular Wizard, even worse if you multiclass. Subtract your essentials like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armour (if applicable), etc, and you've got very few spells to work with. Pick some key levels (eg: level 5) and work out what spells you would actually want to prepare.

Abusing the hell out of Rituals is one way of getting more bang for you buck without having to prep things. There's a long list of 1st level Rituals which you can pick at level 1 or scribe cheaply, plus some solid later ones like Tiny Hut. Doubly important if there are no other Wizards in the party.

[Citan]

I only have experience playing Bladesinger at low levels (<10) but here's my thoughts, if it helps.

I'm assuming your campaign is going to be very different from the kind of campaigns I'm used to (no Teleport Circle/Sending/Tiny Hut on your spell list :smallsmile:) so my thoughts may not be relevant. :smallwink:

To me, your spell list looks like a Wizard spell list, with some minor lipservice to being a Bladesinger. You don't have defensive spells like Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield, etc. You don't have spells that benefit from melee positioning like Thunderwave or Lightning Bolt. And you've got spells like Sleet Storm which seem rather counterproductive to being a Bladesinger in somebody's face.

Maybe that's what you're going for - I mean, if you just spam the hell out of Shadow Blade then maybe you don't need any other options. But you'll be very much a glass cannon, so you need to be okay with that. Shield and Absorb Elements will only get you so far, and you'll have low hitpoints even if you multiclass.

You also have a LOT of spells on your list that need Concentration. IMO, you need to diversify.

My other concern is the prepared spells limit. You need to ASI Dex and maybe take Feats so your Int won't be maxed, so you'll have fewer prepared spells than a regular Wizard, even worse if you multiclass. Subtract your essentials like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armour (if applicable), etc, and you've got very few spells to work with. Pick some key levels (eg: level 5) and work out what spells you would actually want to prepare.

Abusing the hell out of Rituals is one way of getting more bang for you buck without having to prep things. There's a long list of 1st level Rituals which you can pick at level 1 or scribe cheaply, plus some solid later ones like Tiny Hut. Doubly important if there are no other Wizards in the party.
Wow.
OP, I didn't pay attention to your spell choices, but I'll 100% plus this, this is all very good advice. ;)

[Raif]

I only have experience playing Bladesinger at low levels (<10) but here's my thoughts, if it helps.

I'm assuming your campaign is going to be very different from the kind of campaigns I'm used to (no Teleport Circle/Sending/Tiny Hut on your spell list :smallsmile:) so my thoughts may not be relevant. :smallwink:

To me, your spell list looks like a Wizard spell list, with some minor lipservice to being a Bladesinger. You don't have defensive spells like Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield, etc. You don't have spells that benefit from melee positioning like Thunderwave or Lightning Bolt. And you've got spells like Sleet Storm which seem rather counterproductive to being a Bladesinger in somebody's face.

Maybe that's what you're going for - I mean, if you just spam the hell out of Shadow Blade then maybe you don't need any other options. But you'll be very much a glass cannon, so you need to be okay with that. Shield and Absorb Elements will only get you so far, and you'll have low hitpoints even if you multiclass.

You also have a LOT of spells on your list that need Concentration. IMO, you need to diversify.

My other concern is the prepared spells limit. You need to ASI Dex and maybe take Feats so your Int won't be maxed, so you'll have fewer prepared spells than a regular Wizard, even worse if you multiclass. Subtract your essentials like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armour (if applicable), etc, and you've got very few spells to work with. Pick some key levels (eg: level 5) and work out what spells you would actually want to prepare.

Abusing the hell out of Rituals is one way of getting more bang for you buck without having to prep things. There's a long list of 1st level Rituals which you can pick at level 1 or scribe cheaply, plus some solid later ones like Tiny Hut. Doubly important if there are no other Wizards in the party.

Yea, this campaign is a city campaign and takes place all in one city (it's massive, seems like 10x-30x times the size of Waterdeep/Chult). It's a pathfinder campaign from 1-17 called Curse of the Crimson Throne, so spells like Teleportation Circle and such have less use or priority - advice I got from my DM. However spells like Hold Person are pretty good since there will be lots of humanoids.

I was just listing a bunch of spells that I'd like to use - and certainly made it before fully understanding the class and how I want to play it.

As for Int - I'll have an 18 INT/DEX by level 4 and will max INT later at 16, so I'll only have 1 less spell to work with until then. I'm also the only arcane caster so there's a lot of "Wizard" niches that I need to fill, so I will definitely be picking up as many rituals as I can. There's a wizard academy that I have available to me in the game, which will definitely help with that. My DM made it a point to give me this info that I will probably be starting there or be enrolled there so I will have a readily available source of information for spells. My DM is doing a low magic item type of game, but is making it up with a lot of spell availability. No magic shop with items beyond something like a Cape of Billowing, so all other items will be drops.

I now know that the party will be: Moon Druid, Hexblade Warlock, Swashbuckler Rogue, Lore Bard and one unknown but most likely some form of cleric and myself.

I certainly need to go over that spell list, as you have some very good points. I'm just not sure what to really give up in turn for those kinds of spells. I've got 29 spells (with taking only 1 level 9 from the list) so I need to cut it down to 24 as I'll have 4 INT bonus till level 16. This campaign will go to level 17 at minimum, and the DM has said it might be higher as he's putting in a little bit extra. We definitely will get this high, we're a good group who've been playing together for 6 years now.

Would love some help fine tuning it and getting some input on them. Having a lot of trouble with the 5th level spells cause I want all of them lol.

1st
Find Familiar (R)
Mage Armor
Shield
Absorb Elements
Thunderwave

2nd
Shadow Blade (C)
Misty Step
Scorching Ray
Hold Person (C)
Mirror Images

3rd
Counter Spell
Haste
Blur
Lightning Bolt
Fireball


4th
Watery Sphere (C)
Fire Shield
Polymorph (C)
Greater Invisibility (C)

5th
Synaptic Static
Steel Wind Strike
Wall of Force (C)
Telekinesis (C)
Animate Objects (C)

6th
Tenser's Transformation (C)

7th
Forcecage
Prismatic Spray

8th
Illusory Dragon (C)

9th (up in the air - will probably only take 1)
Wish
Forsight
True Polymorph
Prismatic Wall

1st
Identify (R)
Detect Magic (R)

2nd

3rd
Dispel Magic (R)
Tiny Hut (R)
Fly
Major Image
Tiny Servant

4th
Banishment (C)
Wall of Fire (C)

5th
Bigby's Hand

6th
Contingency
Chain Lightning

7th
Simulacrum

8th

9th

[Citan]

Yea, this campaign is a city campaign and takes place all in one city (it's massive, seems like 10x-30x times the size of Waterdeep/Chult). It's a pathfinder campaign from 1-17 called Curse of the Crimson Throne, so spells like Teleportation Circle and such have less use or priority - advice I got from my DM. However spells like Hold Person are pretty good since there will be lots of humanoids.

I was just listing a bunch of spells that I'd like to use - and certainly made it before fully understanding the class and how I want to play it.

As for Int - I'll have an 18 INT/DEX by level 4 and will max INT later at 16, so I'll only have 1 less spell to work with until then. I'm also the only arcane caster so there's a lot of "Wizard" niches that I need to fill, so I will definitely be picking up as many rituals as I can. There's a wizard academy that I have available to me in the game, which will definitely help with that. My DM made it a point to give me this info that I will probably be starting there or be enrolled there so I will have a readily available source of information for spells. My DM is doing a low magic item type of game, but is making it up with a lot of spell availability. No magic shop with items beyond something like a Cape of Billowing, so all other items will be drops.

I now know that the party will be: Moon Druid, Hexblade Warlock, Swashbuckler Rogue, Lore Bard and one unknown but most likely some form of cleric and myself.

I certainly need to go over that spell list, as you have some very good points. I'm just not sure what to really give up in turn for those kinds of spells. I've got 29 spells (with taking only 1 level 9 from the list) so I need to cut it down to 24 as I'll have 4 INT bonus till level 16. This campaign will go to level 17 at minimum, and the DM has said it might be higher as he's putting in a little bit extra. We definitely will get this high, we're a good group who've been playing together for 6 years now.

Would love some help fine tuning it and getting some input on them. Having a lot of trouble with the 5th level spells cause I want all of them lol.

1st
Find Familiar (R)
Mage Armor
Shield
Absorb Elements
Thunderwave

2nd
Shadow Blade (C)
Misty Step
Scorching Ray
Hold Person (C)
Mirror Images

3rd
Counter Spell
Haste
Blur
Lightning Bolt
Fireball


4th
Watery Sphere (C)
Fire Shield
Polymorph (C)
Greater Invisibility (C)

5th
Synaptic Static
Steel Wind Strike
Wall of Force (C)
Telekinesis (C)
Animate Objects (C)

6th
Tenser's Transformation (C)

7th
Forcecage
Prismatic Spray

8th
Illusory Dragon (C)

9th (up in the air - will probably only take 1)
Wish
Forsight
True Polymorph
Prismatic Wall

1st
Identify (R)
Detect Magic (R)

2nd

3rd
Dispel Magic (R)
Tiny Hut (R)
Fly
Major Image
Tiny Servant

4th
Banishment (C)
Wall of Fire (C)

5th
Bigby's Hand

6th
Contingency
Chain Lightning

7th
Simulacrum

8th

9th

Hey again ;=)

Ok, so, what I'm gonna propose may or not be appreciated by your DM (thus accepted or not), depending on how himself view the mechanics of magic in D&d and whether he'd view that as being smart teamwork or metagamey...

But since many (I mean, MANY) spells are shared between Wizard's spell list and each of your pals's spell list...
I'd argue that *maybe* your pals could, each level, learn a spell, write it down and give it to you so you can spend the required time and gold "reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it."

I always allow it in my games because in my view 1) it encourages teamwork 2) it lightens my own load as a DM, so I don't feel constrained to create ex-nihilo a Wizard faction/shop/academy/whatever or have spell scrolls as loot systematically 3) it's the main reason to play a Wizard after all, having chances to write up spells so you can fill in someone else's shoes if need be, or just have an answer for many situations in general.
(Also it works very fine because my players are reasonable so won't powergame at the expense of others).

With that exchange, you could easily and quickly boost your low-level spell known among your lists, so you can instead pick more great exclusives (in the context of your party) such as Rope Trick, the only real drawback is that you basically "lock" one spell every level for each of your Bard and Warlock pals (while Clerics and Druid don't care at all since they change at will ;)). Which may or not be deal-breaking for them. ;)

From Druid, you can learn: Absorb Elements, Thunderwave, but also Earth Tremor, Longstrider, Ice Knife for example, Polymorph...
From Bard, you can learn: Detect Magic, Identify, maybe also Sleep, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Invisibility/Greater Invisibility etc...
From Warlock, you can learn: Comprehend Languages, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Counterspell...

Also, since from what you say you are a solid team that play together since years, I expect you won't ever try and tiptoe on another caster just because you happen to know the same spells. So I'd encourage you to write down any spell you can from Druids and Clerics because it just means that you can coordinate together to alternate the responsibility of covering some niches, or being able to split up the party more easily since you have several people being very versatile. ;)

[Raif]

Hey again ;=)

Ok, so, what I'm gonna propose may or not be appreciated by your DM (thus accepted or not), depending on how himself view the mechanics of magic in D&d and whether he'd view that as being smart teamwork or metagamey...

But since many (I mean, MANY) spells are shared between Wizard's spell list and each of your pals's spell list...
I'd argue that *maybe* your pals could, each level, learn a spell, write it down and give it to you so you can spend the required time and gold "reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it."

I always allow it in my games because in my view 1) it encourages teamwork 2) it lightens my own load as a DM, so I don't feel constrained to create ex-nihilo a Wizard faction/shop/academy/whatever or have spell scrolls as loot systematically 3) it's the main reason to play a Wizard after all, having chances to write up spells so you can fill in someone else's shoes if need be, or just have an answer for many situations in general.
(Also it works very fine because my players are reasonable so won't powergame at the expense of others).

With that exchange, you could easily and quickly boost your low-level spell known among your lists, so you can instead pick more great exclusives (in the context of your party) such as Rope Trick, the only real drawback is that you basically "lock" one spell every level for each of your Bard and Warlock pals (while Clerics and Druid don't care at all since they change at will ;)). Which may or not be deal-breaking for them. ;)

From Druid, you can learn: Absorb Elements, Thunderwave, but also Earth Tremor, Longstrider, Ice Knife for example, Polymorph...
From Bard, you can learn: Detect Magic, Identify, maybe also Sleep, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Invisibility/Greater Invisibility etc...
From Warlock, you can learn: Comprehend Languages, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Counterspell...

Also, since from what you say you are a solid team that play together since years, I expect you won't ever try and tiptoe on another caster just because you happen to know the same spells. So I'd encourage you to write down any spell you can from Druids and Clerics because it just means that you can coordinate together to alternate the responsibility of covering some niches, or being able to split up the party more easily since you have several people being very versatile. ;)

Yea, my group does a really good job of letting people shine and be versatile since we're all very good friends and have been playing for a long time together. For example, right now I play a Phoenix Sorcerer and we got a Wand of Fireballs while I wasn't there one night. It went to the bard, who eventually gave it to me as she didn't want to step on the toes of the "fire everywhere" sorcerer.

We don't coordinate to that level, unless it's in character as most of the group is very story/theme/RP oriented, I'm the only "powergamer" or "optimizer" so to speak. I don't push others at all, since I know that they don't like that unless they ask for help. I'll just keep an eye out on their spell lists and snag stuff from them before I make many decisions.

My DM probably wouldn't have an issue with that at all, he's really open to teamwork things like that. He's a great DM to be very honest, for example has gone and made expanded sorcerer domain lists for each sorcerer archetype and such. He may up the price of it saying that "Well, it's druidic but you can figure it out, just will take you longer and more gold", but that's nothing in comparison to opening up more spells to get.

The Wizard Academy in this campaign isn't something he made up, it's in the campaign itself. It's part of the story and the hooks for characters, so I doubt he has to work too much in that respect. He also is just rolling on a loot table as he wants it as random as it can be.

Any feedbak on that new spell list I posted? I went through it again and shuffled stuff around.

[Citan]

Yea, my group does a really good job of letting people shine and be versatile since we're all very good friends and have been playing for a long time together. For example, right now I play a Phoenix Sorcerer and we got a Wand of Fireballs while I wasn't there one night. It went to the bard, who eventually gave it to me as she didn't want to step on the toes of the "fire everywhere" sorcerer.

We don't coordinate to that level, unless it's in character as most of the group is very story/theme/RP oriented, I'm the only "powergamer" or "optimizer" so to speak. I don't push others at all, since I know that they don't like that unless they ask for help. I'll just keep an eye out on their spell lists and snag stuff from them before I make many decisions.

My DM probably wouldn't have an issue with that at all, he's really open to teamwork things like that. He's a great DM to be very honest, for example has gone and made expanded sorcerer domain lists for each sorcerer archetype and such. He may up the price of it saying that "Well, it's druidic but you can figure it out, just will take you longer and more gold", but that's nothing in comparison to opening up more spells to get.

The Wizard Academy in this campaign isn't something he made up, it's in the campaign itself. It's part of the story and the hooks for characters, so I doubt he has to work too much in that respect. He also is just rolling on a loot table as he wants it as random as it can be.

Any feedbak on that new spell list I posted? I went through it again and shuffled stuff around.
This seems like the perfect mindset. Just two notes...
1) There are some spells that a Bard and Warlock may like to use at low levels because they are relevant, yet swap soon enough because they scale bad: for example, Sleep for Bard (becomes too niche after level 3-4 usually), Expeditious Retreat for Warlock (great spell overall but Concentration competition with Hex/Darkness/etc). So chances are they will take a few spells like that, or spells just "to try out", that you can poach while they have it learned. ;=)
I agree though, it would probably be annoying to "push" them to choose specific spells.

2) Druid and Cleric don't suffer the same problem though: they can completely change their prepared spell list every day. So you could just agree with them that during the downtime between session, they spare a portion of their time to write down spells so you can them use your own time appropriating them. ;=)

Also, I'd like to stress out a very important bit: in my opinion not every DM would allow it, at least between those two last classes and Wizard, even if balance-wise it's not a big thing.
And it would be a very legitimate decision imo: fluff-wise their spells come from a "divine source" (basically from divine intervention), whereas Wizard use raw magic (energies that he learned to control -more or less- through complex processes), so one could legitimately find weird that Cleric/Druid's description of how the spell work for them can actually be "converted" by an arcanic caster such as Wizard/Sorcerer.*
(While on the contrary, exchange between Bard and Wizard or Druid and Cleric seems a bit more easier to imagine).

Nature Cleric (affiliated to Auril): "hey mate, I put down that nasty Hold Person, I'm sure you'll like it".
Wizard: "thanks, I'll study that immediately".
Wizard starts reading, speaking to himself...
"Material components: ok, as usual...
Somatic components: use your right hand to draw a snowflake in the air while you keep your head down? Weird, but ok, why not...
Verbal components: use a praying tone to say the following: 'Oh powerful Auril, please accept my supplication and freeze the heart and mind of this vile creature'? What the hell am I supposed to do with this?!!"

:smallbiggrin:


I know that for some of the people I play/DM with that emphasize big on world coherence, this would be an immersion-breaker. "Fortunately" for the others, these ones are not part of our D&d games so no problem with me being liberal about it. ^^

[Raif]

This seems like the perfect mindset. Just two notes...
1) There are some spells that a Bard and Warlock may like to use at low levels because they are relevant, yet swap soon enough because they scale bad: for example, Sleep for Bard (becomes too niche after level 3-4 usually), Expeditious Retreat for Warlock (great spell overall but Concentration competition with Hex/Darkness/etc). So chances are they will take a few spells like that, or spells just "to try out", that you can poach while they have it learned. ;=)
I agree though, it would probably be annoying to "push" them to choose specific spells.

2) Druid and Cleric don't suffer the same problem though: they can completely change their prepared spell list every day. So you could just agree with them that during the downtime between session, they spare a portion of their time to write down spells so you can them use your own time appropriating them. ;=)

Also, I'd like to stress out a very important bit: in my opinion not every DM would allow it, at least between those two last classes and Wizard, even if balance-wise it's not a big thing.
And it would be a very legitimate decision imo: fluff-wise their spells come from a "divine source" (basically from divine intervention), whereas Wizard use raw magic (energies that he learned to control -more or less- through complex processes), so one could legitimately find weird that Cleric/Druid's description of how the spell work for them can actually be "converted" by an arcanic caster such as Wizard/Sorcerer.*
(While on the contrary, exchange between Bard and Wizard or Druid and Cleric seems a bit more easier to imagine).

Nature Cleric (affiliated to Auril): "hey mate, I put down that nasty Hold Person, I'm sure you'll like it".
Wizard: "thanks, I'll study that immediately".
Wizard starts reading, speaking to himself...
"Material components: ok, as usual...
Somatic components: use your right hand to draw a snowflake in the air while you keep your head down? Weird, but ok, why not...
Verbal components: use a praying tone to say the following: 'Oh powerful Auril, please accept my supplication and freeze the heart and mind of this vile creature'? What the hell am I supposed to do with this?!!"

:smallbiggrin:


I know that for some of the people I play/DM with that emphasize big on world coherence, this would be an immersion-breaker. "Fortunately" for the others, these ones are not part of our D&d games so no problem with me being liberal about it. ^^

Oh definitely, but the RP that could evolve from that? Priceless. "WTF druid, why the hell do you need to say this? Is it the specific sounds? The words?". Could lead to some very cool RP and discussions.

[Citan]

Oh definitely, but the RP that could evolve from that? Priceless. "WTF druid, why the hell do you need to say this? Is it the specific sounds? The words?". Could lead to some very cool RP and discussions.
Very very true, we had much fun with this at the beginnings (then it got old because it's always the same group ^^).

[Raif]

So I've been going over my spell list again with some of the advice in mind that I was given, what would be some good defensive spells to take beyond Shield/Mage Armor/Absorb Elements?

Fire Shield - seems OK, but there's no real defensive aspect to it? just retaliatory damage and looks like it needs your DM to play enemies intelligently

Blink - Ive only used this once, but the randomness really sucked. Plus taking me out of the fight means no AoO and loss of concentration spells on people/things like wall of force? Anyone have some good experiences with this on Bladesinger?

Mirror Images - Always awesome, will probably take this

Expeditious Retreat - seems like a good spell, but the concentration means no Shadow Blade or other concentration spells.

Blur - Good spell, concentration kills it for use with Shadow Blade and haste

Am I missing any?