Eye of the Deep

[Tvtyrant]

Is there a conversion of an Eye of the Deep for 4E?

I'm thinking of using one as a solo for lowish levels.

It has two eye rays.

Main eye it uses on intiative 15 as a blast that stuns (saves end).

Eyestalks shoot a daze ray (saves end) at the end of each opponents turn.

Standard action: claws, which grab if opponent is stunned or dazed.

Minor action: bite grabbed creature for a lot of damage.

Lair Action: at initiative 0 it moves over the pool and drops any grabbed creature in. The pool is full of minion eels.

My question is, what level are multiple stun and daze effects appropriate to? Should I switch out stun for blind?

[Wasteomana]

Is there a conversion of an Eye of the Deep for 4E?

I'm thinking of using one as a solo for lowish levels.

It has two eye rays.

Main eye it uses on intiative 15 as a blast that stuns (saves end).

Eyestalks shoot a daze ray (saves end) at the end of each opponents turn.

Standard action: claws, which grab if opponent is stunned or dazed.

Minor action: bite grabbed creature for a lot of damage.

Lair Action: at initiative 0 it moves over the pool and drops any grabbed creature in. The pool is full of minion eels.

My question is, what level are multiple stun and daze effects appropriate to? Should I switch out stun for blind?


Any reason not to just take something like a Beholder Eye Tyrant and give it a claw / up the bite damage?

[ThePurple]

My question is, what level are multiple stun and daze effects appropriate to? Should I switch out stun for blind?

I'm pretty sure that most people here would argue that there is *no* level in which AoE s/e stun and daze effects that are dumped out each round would be appropriate for (unless you're talking deep end epic in which the players are equipped with a plethora of countermeasures and you're still actively trying to kill them). My own personal houserule is that stun and dominate are never s/e and are *only* allowed to be AoEs if they are a standard action encounter power of an elite or solo (and even then, likely a conditional that requires set up of some kind or marks the bloodied transition). Daze isn't as bad because, at the very least, the target can still do *something* during their turn rather than sitting there doing nothing (which is very disempowering), but action denial of any kind tends to be frowned upon because you're dramatically limiting what a player can do and, if it's s/e, a bad turn of the dice can really screw a player over (in one of my early games, the party leader succumbed to drow poison by continually failing his saves and was out for the entire fight without ever really getting to do anything).

What you might want to do is instead of using a straight up stun use a growing conditional. For example if the blast used each round applies a slow(s/e); if the target is already slowed, they are instead dazed (EoNT); if they are already dazed, they are instead stunned (EoNT). This allows players to have a bit of agency and control over whether they're stunned (since they can move away from the beholder if things are looking grim), especially if you tell them that repeated exposure will increase the effect. The eye-beams could do slow(s/e); if the target is already slowed, immobilized(EoNT).

If you're running it as a solo monster, it's also important to ensure that it doesn't just focus on control effects. For pacing purposes, control effects slow down the fight; if you use too many of them, you'll end up with an incredibly long fight, which may not be particularly fun. When designing monsters, especially solos and standards, I find that control effects should always exist as a supplement to the primary threat of damage dealt by the monster rather than as the primary threat in itself.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm pretty sure that most people here would argue that there is *no* level in which AoE s/e stun and daze effects that are dumped out each round would be appropriate for (unless you're talking deep end epic in which the players are equipped with a plethora of countermeasures and you're still actively trying to kill them). My own personal houserule is that stun and dominate are never s/e and are *only* allowed to be AoEs if they are a standard action encounter power of an elite or solo (and even then, likely a conditional that requires set up of some kind or marks the bloodied transition). Daze isn't as bad because, at the very least, the target can still do *something* during their turn rather than sitting there doing nothing (which is very disempowering), but action denial of any kind tends to be frowned upon because you're dramatically limiting what a player can do and, if it's s/e, a bad turn of the dice can really screw a player over (in one of my early games, the party leader succumbed to drow poison by continually failing his saves and was out for the entire fight without ever really getting to do anything).

What you might want to do is instead of using a straight up stun use a growing conditional. For example if the blast used each round applies a slow(s/e); if the target is already slowed, they are instead dazed (EoNT); if they are already dazed, they are instead stunned (EoNT). This allows players to have a bit of agency and control over whether they're stunned (since they can move away from the beholder if things are looking grim), especially if you tell them that repeated exposure will increase the effect. The eye-beams could do slow(s/e); if the target is already slowed, immobilized(EoNT).

If you're running it as a solo monster, it's also important to ensure that it doesn't just focus on control effects. For pacing purposes, control effects slow down the fight; if you use too many of them, you'll end up with an incredibly long fight, which may not be particularly fun. When designing monsters, especially solos and standards, I find that control effects should always exist as a supplement to the primary threat of damage dealt by the monster rather than as the primary threat in itself.
Okay, so what if main eye simply blinds, then small eyes go: slow, daze, stun. The bite does progressively more damage based on how bad the effect on the creature is. Small damage to a slowed player, moderate to a dazed, tons to a stunned player.

For the lair I am thinking of adding a cave in effect if the Eye of the Deep is stunned or otherwise immobilized, which knocks prone and creates difficult terrain. If he isn't stunned and he has a grabbed player he takes a player into the pool to finish them off.

Edit: Fluff wise the Eye of the Deep is a solitary ambush predator dialed up to 11. It's main eye fires a giant cone of brilliant light that blinds fish/people, then it wards off additional enemies with its two smaller eyes that immobilize while it eats one. Then it leaves. The main eye stunned in AD&D, blinded in 3.5, but the main thing is that it is supposed to make it easy for it to chomp something.

http://dave.monkeymartian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/TonyDiTerlizziMonstrousManual.jpg

[ThePurple]

Edit: Fluff wise the Eye of the Deep is a solitary ambush predator dialed up to 11. It's main eye fires a giant cone of brilliant light that blinds fish/people, then it wards off additional enemies with its two smaller eyes that immobilize while it eats one. Then it leaves. The main eye stunned in AD&D, blinded in 3.5, but the main thing is that it is supposed to make it easy for it to chomp something.

"Ambush predator" is less "controller" and more "lurker". The defining mechanical construct (imo) of a lurker monster is one round to set up (dealing low-to-no damage) and a second round to spike (extreme damage). The DPR should average to normal but it should still alternate between set up and spike.

With this in mind, you could use the claws as a set up (pulling enemies close and grabbing them) and the bite (or the lair attack; hurling a target into an object is very good) as the spike. The growing control effects would then simply act to enable the set up and spike without reducing the PCs' ability to be a threat to the Eye (I would probably make it "slowed + grant CA" rather than just slowed however).

As a solo, it's also important to ensure that the NPC *not* simply rely upon massive amounts of single target damage. Solo monsters are supposed to fight 4-5 PCs at once; all but their most powerful abilities should enable them to directly engage multiple PCs. I would also make sure that there is some capacity to engage ranged character, even when engaged by a melee character. If you're planning on having the EotD exist as the only monster in the fight, you may want to consider having one of the eye beams (which don't provoke OAs) slide a target and/or deal some psychic damage (since the original one could create illusions with eye beams) in order to prevent ranged PCs from getting out completely unscathed. If you're open to giving it some minions, having them come in from the periphery to harass ranged characters would do the same.