Necromantic Monk, how to be viable?

[noce]

I have this idea in mind of a LE Monk of Bane, with so much necromantic power to debilitate enemies with his bare fists.

What I'd like to do is an arcane gish, so I thought about multiclassing with Dread Necromancer, then entering Enlightened Fist.

What I really like:

I can channel touch spells while doing full attacks.
I have a lot of necromancy and I'm spontaneous, which helps the flavour of "innately powerful".
I can take Death Devotion and Destruction Devotion, and fuel them with Rebuke Undead.
I can eventually shake enemies with just my presence.


The problem is: my BaB is between medium and low.
How can I circumvent this?

I thought about Knowledge Devotion, but I have neither skill points nor knowledges as class skills (and it's not the flavour I want).
I thought about Naenhoon Illumian + Arcane Disciple(Pride) + Extend + Persist, but it has 4 less feats than human and it's a bit too much for just full bab.
I looked for ways to apply Cha to hit/damage, but with little luck.
I could PrC out of Enlightened Fist after 3 levels, entering a full bab full casting PrC. Unfortunately, Abjurant Champion is of no help for Dread Necromancer. Do you have any suggestion for good PrCs? I'd like to avoid losing another caster level.


Well, this pretty much sums up my idea and my concerns. Can you help me? :smallsmile:

[emeraldstreak]

Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon Magazine, 12 000) add Cha as fire damage, as far as I remember.

Persist, dunno. Planning domain gets you Extend Spell. Probably not worth bothering only for Divine Power, but in reality you will persist at least one other spell.

[noce]

Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon Magazine, 12 000) add Cha as fire damage, as far as I remember.

Persist, dunno. Planning domain gets you Extend Spell. Probably not worth bothering only for Divine Power, but in reality you will persist at least one other spell.

I'm sorry but I do not use Dragon Magazine, and I'm looking for attack bonus and not damage bonus anyway.

As for DMM Persist, Dread Necromancer has no acces to Domains, it is not a cleric, so no Planning Domain for me. And, given the Dread Necromancer spell list, I'd persist just Divine Power. It doesn't seem worth it, so I'm looking for other means to increase my attack bonus.

[death390]

First a pair of questions:
1. What is your parties power level, describe them.
2. Define what it is to be a monk.

now for generic help.

use duskblade, it gets full BaB. and a large quantity of lower level slots (10 of each but only goes to 6th lvl spells), free combat casting too. thing that would suck though is you get a bunch of free stuff that is useless on a monk. medium-heavy AP + shield AP, no spell failure when wearing right kind of armor, channel touch spell though weapon, though you do get free quicken.

also the monk/ caster PrC are complete crap for arcane and divine.

i doubt ill be the last to say it. but if you just want unarmed fighter who uses spells. i would suggest the swordsage from Tome of Battle Unarmed Variant. you'll have to finalize it with your DM (its not completly finished) but it gets you a monks unarmed progression, wis-AC in light armor, initative bonus, maneuvers (psudo-casting), and such.

hell another option would be go monk/ warlock and use eldritch claws feat, refluff to being necromacy.

part of the problem is you want a bad chassis to do nice things. it won't work nicely. monk is one of the WORST classes in Dnd, to the point that depending on how you define a "Monk" you could play one of 7+ other classes better as a monk than the actual monk.

mind you there is a feat that can be taken at BaB 3 to get basically a monks damage about 4 lvls lower than current level. superior unarmed strike; d6 @lvl4, d8 @8, d10 @12, 2d6@ 16. mind you that is ECL based so you don't have to progress it by a specific class.

a duskblade who uses their fist instead of a weapon = unarmed monk who channels energy into their strikes.
an acrobatic rouge with unarmed strike = a monk who uses pressure points to fight (sneak attack), who is also skilled.
a fighter who uses two weapon fighting line, and his multitude of feats on unarmed stuff = a monk of a thousand fists.
a druid who uses natural attack boosters = a naturalist monk, in harmony with nature.
a swordsage = a monk practicioner of wuxai with unnatural powers from honing the body to its peak.
a totemist = a monk channeling the spirits of magical beasts attacking as they would.
a swashbuckler = a dexterous monk who is acrobatic and attacks key points.


mind you there are other classes that can be used; incarnate, warblade, crusader, warlock, ect.

[noce]

good writeup

I know how much monk sucks, but I really want the feeling of a character channeling necromancy into his fists.
It could very well be a Fighter or anything else, really, but Enlightened Fist needs Stunning Fist as a Prerequisite, so Monk 1 is pretty mandatory for that PrC.

A solution could be to not take that PrC, for example going Duskblade, Spellsword, Raumathari Battlemage or Havoc Mage.
Unfortunately, Spellsword and Havoc Mage cannot combine a spell with a full attack, and Raumathari Battlemage is a wonky PrC.
Duskblade with Improved Unarmed Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike could work, but the class severely lacks the necromancy flavour.

I'm leaning towards monk 1 / wizard 4 / enlightened fist 3 / abjurant champion 5, with Knowledge Devotion...

[emeraldstreak]

I'm leaning toward monk 1 / wizard 4 / enlightened fist 3 / abjurant champion 5, with Knowledge Devotion...

Monk or Unarmed Swordsage are fine. Put Greater Mighty Wallop on them unarmed strikes and advance your effective monk level by feats and items.

[Zaq]

Find a way to hack Wraithstrike onto your list? Persistomancy is optional, of course, though you’ve already mentioned the feat cost. Not sure what the easiest way to actually accomplish this would be, though.

Fractional BAB from Unearthed Arcana always makes stuff like this easier, but it’s a variant rule that isn’t really under the control of the player. Still, the worst your GM can say is no, so it’s worth asking.

Do you want the higher BAB primarily for iteratives or primarily for higher to-hit? It might be possible to work around one or the other of those things even if we can’t directly increase your BAB.

That said, relatively few casting classes or “mix these two classes together” PrCs have full BAB (especially without losing CL), so you’re not likely to solve the problem directly without giving something up.

What Monk elements are important to you? As has been mentioned, it might be easier to get the Monk parts elsewhere. Monk’s big advantage in this kind of build is that a two-level dip can net you the equivalent of about three feats, though, so if you’re feat-strapped, Monk may still be an acceptable choice.

Going kind of in a different direction, have you thought about taking a race with claws or another natural weapon and using that instead of unarmed strikes? There are a few LA 0 sources of natural weapons (off the top of my head, I can think of kenku for claws, warforged for slam, skarn for spines, darfellan for bite, and kobold for claw/claw/bite, though kobold has other issues if you’re lactose intolerant), so that might save you some build resources. Or it might not.

[noce]

Fractional BAB from Unearthed Arcana always makes stuff like this easier, but it’s a variant rule that isn’t really under the control of the player. Still, the worst your GM can say is no, so it’s worth asking.

Luckily, we already use this rule.


Do you want the higher BAB primarily for iteratives or primarily for higher to-hit? It might be possible to work around one or the other of those things even if we can’t directly increase your BAB.

Primarily for higher to-hit, this is why I mentioned Knowledge Devotion. Focusing primarily on Casting stat for DCs, my to-hit will be quite low without focusing on improving it.


What Monk elements are important to you? As has been mentioned, it might be easier to get the Monk parts elsewhere.

I just want a toon that can fight bare-handed and channel spells into his fists.
An unarmed Duskblade is fine on the monk part, for me, but lacks on the necromancy part.
Channeling spells is why I am thinking about Enlightened Fist, which requires Stunning Fist, whence Monk 1.

If there is an alternative method to channel spells into full attacks without Enlightened Fist, 0 levels of monk is enough monk for me.


There are a few LA 0 sources of natural weapons (off the top of my head, I can think of kenku for claws, warforged for slam, skarn for spines, darfellan for bite, and kobold for claw/claw/bite, though kobold has other issues if you’re lactose intolerant), so that might save you some build resources. Or it might not.

I know about them, but unfortunately they're not the flavour I'm looking for. I was thinking about a humanlike race.

[Nifft]

I know how much monk sucks, but I really want the feeling of a character channeling necromancy into his fists.

Is your DM open to adaptations, or are you required to piece together a character from published material only?

If you can use adaptations, then an Unarmed Arcane Swordsage might be of use to you.

The result might look like...

Schools:
- Shadow Hand
- Setting Sun
- Stone Dragon
- Diamond Mind
- Bane's Fist


Bane's Fist: this is a "school" of Necromancy spells adapted into Maneuvers.

Wither the Weak (Boost 1): Swift action; until the start of your next turn, your unarmed strikes also deliver the effect of the chill touch spell.

Bane's Bravado (Boost 2): Swift action; you gain temporary HP equal to your ranks in Intimidate. As usual, these don't stack.

Seize Victory (Strike 3): Standard action; as vampiric touch.

... etc.

[noce]

Is your DM open to adaptations, or are you required to piece together a character from published material only?

Unarmed Swordsage is accepted, homebrew martial schools are not. So Unarmed Swordsage, while much stronger than a Monk, has nothing necromantic sadly.

It is a pity that Shadow Sun Ninja is not a gish and that Jade Phoenix Mage is not a necromancer (and difficult to adapt with a dark theme).

[Nifft]

Unarmed Swordsage is accepted, homebrew martial schools are not. So Unarmed Swordsage, while much stronger than a Monk, has nothing necromantic sadly.

It is a pity that Shadow Sun Ninja is not a gish and that Jade Phoenix Mage is not a necromancer (and difficult to adapt with a dark theme).

The Swordsage adaptation section includes both Unarmed variant, and also a spellcasting variant. If you combine them, you get an unarmed spellcasting Swordsage.

IMHO a homebrew school would be easier for the DM to balance than just throwing open all Sorc/Wiz spells, so that's what I'd suggest to your DM -- and what I'd do as a DM if a player asked for something like this.


In terms of using only published content, how about a regular Swordsage / Cloistered Cleric / Ruby Knight Vindicator? Spend feats on Improved Unarmed Strike + Superior Unarmed Strike (to fake the Monk's progression), use Cleric spells to do necromantic stuff, and wear Light armor. You'll get a lot of value out of high Wisdom, and your Charisma will fuel both Intimidate checks (for Bane RP) and Turn Undead / [Divine] feats.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC, in it's Ebon Phoenix evil adaptation?

[DMVerdandi]

Nifft had a good suggestion. You could do Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/XX[Class that increases spellcasting]5


The feats you need are
>Improved Unarmed Attack
>Superior Unarmed attack
>Smiting Spell
>Snap Kick

The rest are up to you. Extend/persistent spell/Divine meta-magic [persist] are common.


Also, those feats for the most part are pretty essential to the goal of the build regardless. Smiting spell for the most part kind of invalidates enlightened fist pretty easily.
Throw Harm spells, and voila. You have your necrotic spells.




Alternatively, you could go the spontaneous arcane route, and get a Battle sorcerer. Most don't care for it, but in reality, it still gives you 9th level casting, and with rune-staves, you can pretty easily expand your list. A battle sorcerer is still leagues above most low tier classes. You can still take those unarmed attack dependent feats and use Debuff spells [Rays are pretty awesome].


Lastly, There is always Spell to Power Erudite, which nets you the ability to cast all arcane spells as psychic powers, which gives you a really flexible list, even though the complete psi version is a bit wonky. At it's weakest, yet most common reading, it has the powers per day equal to wilder, but can use any of those unique powers per day to manifest any power they know, and locks them in for re-use.
Generally, I suggest the dragon version, but you don't use dragon so, the comp psi will do.

The reason I suggest it, is because you can learn nearly all of the arcane necromancy spells, even from dread necromancers, for example, and pick and choose which one would best suit you for the day.

Generally, stuff like ray of enervation and stupidity kick a lot of butt.




Finally, picking up Necropolitan for any of those, I suggest. It's the quickest, cheapest and best way to become undead, rather low level.

[mabriss lethe]

being able to Chill touch is a pretty good start. It's pretty much a magic flurry all on its own, and necromantic.

[Anthrowhale]

Maybe Monk 0 or 1 or 2 / Spontaneous Cleric 4 or 3 or 2/ Sacred Fist 10 ? (Note that Sacred Fist is full spell advancement according to the text.)

You can "channel" touch spells by casting them in advance and then delivering with a full attack. Girallon's Blessing + Spell Flower might allow you do delivering 4 Harm's in a full attack.
Clerics are good at necromancy and you're spontaneous.

You can shake people with your presence via persisted spells.

You can burn them directly with your necromantic fists (sacred flames refluffed).

[death390]

I know how much monk sucks, but I really want the feeling of a character channeling necromancy into his fists.
It could very well be a Fighter or anything else, really, but Enlightened Fist needs Stunning Fist as a Prerequisite, so Monk 1 is pretty mandatory for that PrC.

A solution could be to not take that PrC, for example going Duskblade, Spellsword, Raumathari Battlemage or Havoc Mage.
Unfortunately, Spellsword and Havoc Mage cannot combine a spell with a full attack, and Raumathari Battlemage is a wonky PrC.
Duskblade with Improved Unarmed Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike could work, but the class severely lacks the necromancy flavour.

I'm leaning toward monk 1 / wizard 4 / enlightened fist 3 / abjurant champion 5, with Knowledge Devotion...

oh thank you for defining what you are looking for.

i have great news! you can combine ANY touch attack spell with a single unarmed strike as long as you have improved unarmed strike. (complete arcane p 73)

"Improved Unarmed Strike: You can add the damage of your unarmed strike to the damage of a touch spell by delivering the spell as a regular melee attack instead of a melee touch attack. The defender gets the full benefi t of armor and shield, but if the attack hits, the unarmed strike deals normal damage over and above any damage the spell does as it is discharged. If the unarmed strike misses, then the spell is not discharged. If the unarmed strike scores a critical hit, damage from the spell is not multiplied. "

however as you see it doesn't allow use on full attack action.


i am assuming that you are trying to add your touch attack spell thru a full attack action via this ability.

"Arcane Fist (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, an enlightened fist can spend one of her daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike attack she makes during the action."

however the problem with this is that you have a very limited set of uses of stunning fist and the spell only works on a single attack. also you have very few actuall spells to use due to the fact that most touch ranged spells are lower leveled. note that almost ALL spells past spell level 3 that are range: touch are healing, teleportation, or utility line. so the majority of you attack spells will be levels 1-3.

in my opinion, your best bet it to talk to your DM and ask to play a monk like duskblade. ask if he is willing to help you customize it a bit. removing all the armor proficiencies for monks AC bonus, removing martial weapon proficiencies for monks unarmed strike, and remove the casting in armor upgrades for extra spell feats (to get you a few more touch spells).

the unfortunate part of this is that you have to wait for duskblade 13 for full attack channeling, BUT!! it is a better version of full attack channeling! you get to hit with the spell ON EVERY STRIKE!

even if you can't get that a couple feats will set you back up overall better than a monk gish. superior unarmed strike for monk like damage, two weapon fighting to basically flurry, ect.

thats not to mention the fact that you get a wealth of spell slots to spend on your channeled attacks.



also there is a bit of controversy with the spell chill touch. group A believes that because the duration is instantaneous you apply ALL attacks of chill touch (1/spell lvl) in the turn you cast specifically bypassing the 1 free touch attack as part of spell casting. group B believes that you HAVE to hold the charge and apply the other attacks than the 1 free one you get on subsequent rounds (which you can full attack with).

either one will allow you to channel multiple hits with that particular spell, i personally am with group A, that you apply all attacks of chill touch the round you cast due to balance reasons.

[noce]

Thank you all for all your help.
This game won't start until late March, so I still have room for thinking about it a bit more and improving my chances of success.

In the meantime I'll continue to look at this thread for all your greatly appreciated suggestions. :smallsmile:

[Hesh]

Between UMD, Arcane Disciple, and Planar Touchstone, can you not Divine Power to last long enough for most combats?

If you are shy of feats, you can use Magic Items as per the Arms and Equipment Guide to get that to aid your stuff. If anything picking up Magic Items that grsnt feats for your racial ability seem fitting.

Failing that, a Custom Magic Item of Divne Power should help here.

[DrMotives]

How about UA's spontaneous divine caster variant on a cleric base instead of Dread Necromancer for your magical side? You'd get rebuking to power your devotion feats. You could improve BAB by going spontaneous cleric 1 / (unarmed duskblade or swordsage) 4 / Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 3, which would give you an Aura of Despair, and half advance spellcasting with a good BAB advancement. Although with that build, the Aura doesn't come online until level 8.

[ShurikVch]

How about to apply Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#spellStoring) SA to your Unarmed Strike via Necklace of Natural Weapons (or Kensai's Signature Weapon)?

[Matrota]

If you take the feat Divine Might (Compete Warrior p. 106) you can get bonus damage equal to your charisma modifier on damage rolls for 1 round by expending a turn/rebuke attempt. The Divine Power spell gives BaB equal to character level, so if you could find a way to get a custom item w/ that you'd be golden. Slippers of Battledancing from DMGII let you use charisma mod instead of strength or dexterity for attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light weapons provided you move at least 10 feet that round.

[noce]

In the end I decided to go monk 1 / necromancer wizard 4 / enlightened fist 3 / abjurant champion 5.

I know a divine gish would have been stronger. I know a non-gish necromancer would be stronger, too.
I just want the feeling of a melee characther with necromantic tricks, more than a spellcaster.
This is to say, I'm not trying to build a spellcaster that can melee, but a monk that has casting abilities, and I'm pretty sure this toon will be a fun to play character.

We use 37pt point buy, so 10 16 16 17 10 8, level ups in INT.

Two flaws, that coupled with human give me a lot of feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Able Learner, Spell Focus Necromancy, Carmendine Monk and Combat Casting at lvl 1, Weapon Finesse at lvl 2 with the wizard ACF, Knowledge Devotion at lvl 3, then Battlecaster Offense, Greater Spell Focus Necromancy and Alacritous Cogitation, not necessarily in that order.

Rat familiar is both flavourful and useful for the +2 Fort and for delivering a touch-range buff to me when combat starts.

Again, thank you all for your help. :smallsmile: