Bebeliths: How do they do it? [3.5e]

[Vareki]

Bebiliths are enormous, predatory, arachnid demons that hunt other demons

hunt other demons

I don't get it either.

The SRD and the Monster Manual both contain this line at the start of the Bebelith's entry, but I cannot fathom how this would successfully play out for these weird not-spider monsters. Absolutely nothing about them, mechanically, makes me think they're suited to the task of demon slaying. Let's break it down.

Obviously a Bebelith isn't going to be much of a threat to a CR 20 Balor, and they're going to roll over a CR 2 Dretch or Quasit without a problem. But pretty much everything in the middle of that scale is going to either be able to trivially evade this Monster's attacks, or be locked into a long, boring grudge match. Take the Succubus and the Vrock, the only two core non-mook Demons with a lower CR than the Bebelith (and, as a result, theoretically good candidates for huntin'):

The Bebelith will catch the Vrock in its Web about half the time to prevent it from simply flying away, and is all but guaranteed to hit with follow up Bites and Claws... which are almost entirely blunted by the Vrock's DR. It's poison does squat - all Demons are immune. No Armor to rend, which doesn't help it put the Vrock down even if it had some. Even if the Bebelith takes this to a Grapple, its not a sure thing even if the odds are in its favor. Actually engaging at all seems uncommonly difficult; the Vrock is better at detecting it than the Bebelith is at hiding.

It's not like the Vrock can really do anything back, for much of the same reasons, but at least it's love of combat will at least cause it to stick around maybe. It has a lower average damage per turn against the Bebelith, but has way more attack to spike some damage with and an at-will Mirror Image SLA so I'm not putting my money on the Spider.

It's got better odds of eating a Succubus (still slowly, mind, since that same DR is in its way) - It drastically outmatches them in a physical confrontation, but actually reaching that confrontation seems borderline impossible. Unlike the Vrock, your garden variety Succubi probably doesn't have a reason to slug it out with a Bebelith and has the tools to not do that; Greater Teleport (shared with the Vrock), Etheral Jaunt and a Charm Monster and Suggestion that have good odds of succeeding. While RAW doesn't specifically allow the use of Supernatural Abilities in a Grapple, if that's how our Spider Friend wants to play it, the rules text on the Succubus's Energy Drain encourages them to start Grapples to use it so it's probably fair game (and even though its unlikely to actually impose a negative level, the Suggestion effect has good odds of going off). Even if the Bebelith gets the drop on a Succubus, despite her superior perception skills to the Bebelith's stealth, the Succubus has a lot of time to deploy any of the many ways available to her of ending the fight.

How does the Bebelith earn its dinner? Can it meaningfully threaten any Demons besides the very weakest? Why does it want to hunt Demons when it is so very bad at it?

[Cespenar]

Do wolves not eat rabbits because they would "roll over" them?

They either solo-hunt Dretchs and Quasits, or hunt the Vrocks and what-have-you in larger packs. Problem solved.

Seriously, there are much bigger problems in the MM than this. :smalltongue:

[Braininthejar2]

He doesn't exactly need his dinner either.

I don't think it needs to eat as an outsider. Which means both that it kills its pray out of malice, and it can afford to wait.

"The weakest demons" are over 90% of population of the Abyss - it's just the players that keep stumbling on high CR stuff.

Imagine a big, armored bug approaching an anthill, and regularly snatching some ants from the path. How long will it take for the swarm to notice? Demonic commanders won't take note of losing any demon that could conceivably got snacked on by their big monsters - that's just calculated cost.

[RoboEmperor]

Alert Bebilith
(Book of Vile Darkness, p. 84)

Conjuration (Calling) [Evil]
Level: Sorcerer 6, Wizard 6,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One bebilith
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Check Result Outcome
9 or lower Bebilith and demon both attack caster.
10—12 Bebilith ignores demon and attempts to grab another random creature (possibly caster) within 100 feet of where it appeared. It tries to grab the creature, then retreat to the Abyss to feed, never returning.*
13—18 Bebilith flees without taking action.
19—21 Demon flees, and bebilith attempts to grab another random creature (possibly caster) within 100 feet of where it appeared. It tries to grab the creature, then retreat to the Abyss to feed, never returning.*
22—30 Demon flees, and 1 round later the bebilith starts hunting for it.
31 or higher Bebilith grabs demon, and the two disappear.* The demon is never seen again.

*Bebilith attempts to start a grapple with its target. On a successful grapple check, bebilith and its victim are both affected by the bebilith's plane shift ability (this ability allows the bebilith to take a creature with it, which it can't otherwise do).

When in the presence of a demon, the caster conjures a bebilith—a demon that hunts other demons—to kill or chase off the original demon. This spell is a risky proposition, however. To determine the effect of the spell, subtract the Hit Dice of the demon from 12 (the HD of the bebilith), add the result to a caster level check, and consult the above table.

If this spell is cast while not in the presence of a demon, the bebilith acts as if the caster level check result was a 10.

Material Component: A bit of demon's flesh and a lump of iron.

[Vareki]

Even then, the unfortunate Quasit has a non-zero chance of escaping if it manages to fade the Web (30% chance of the Bebelith missing the shot, after all). It can fly a lot further than the Bebelith's range increments allow it to pursue.

But yeah, those poor Dretches are really looking like the bulk of its diet.

This reflects the situation that has prompted this thread, where my players ripped open a portal to the Abyss with a trademark wacky PC Plan. Given that this was not a planned encounter with the Demonic Hordes, I grabbed some statblocks and let it play - the Bebelith was in the wings in case the trio of Vrocks and a dozen Dretches proved too difficult or too easy for them. It was going to either jump on their foes because of the now clearly very misleading descriptive text, or swarm in as backup.

It ended up eating most of the Dretches, and drawing a few Vrock claw attacks away from overwhelmed party members. What a rough life this Spider Demon leads


Seriously, there are much bigger problems in the MM than this. :smalltongue:

Yeah, but I wanted to talk about Bebeliths :smallwink:


I don't think it needs to eat as an outsider

And now my sympathy for this poor, ill-suited predator gets a little confused.

EDIT:


19—21 Demon flees, and bebilith attempts to grab another random creature (possibly caster) within 100 feet of where it appeared. It tries to grab the creature, then retreat to the Abyss to feed, never returning.*
22—30 Demon flees, and 1 round later the bebilith starts hunting for it.
31 or higher Bebilith grabs demon, and the two disappear.* The demon is never seen again.

Given that this is a 6th level spell, we're looking at a CL of at least 11 - so 6 and up, our friend the Vrock is gonna run away? What do they know that we don't...

[Darth Ultron]

They do attack from surprise a lot and even more so attack when a demon is already wounded.

You could just say they go after the ''weak'' demons.

You also need to keep in mind that the MM monster is the ''base'' monster, so just Advance it, add a template or two and maybe even a class level or two...

[Albions_Angel]

We dont know what other demons thing of them.

It could be that Bebeliths are know for spending MONTHS tracking a single target, biding their time, and then attacking when its vulnerable. They could be single minded hit men. It could be that the demons are only "functionally" immune to the poison, and that over time it leads to an agonizing death, but that time is on a scale much to long for the PCs to consider. And maybe they mindlessly attack their prey, even when the odds are against them. A more powerful demon might still retreat if it gets wounded. No point fighting a battle that will exhaust you. But what it Bebeliths dont care about that, and just attack until either it or its prey is dead. Even to a demon, thats terrifying. And maybe they usually hunt in packs, or somehow tell each other of their marks. Sure, you can take one out, but now others are coming for you.

Demons might run out of fear. And in the "wild", bebeliths might be better at tactics than the MM gives them credit for.

[Vareki]

They do attack from surprise a lot and even more so attack when a demon is already wounded.

You could just say they go after the ''weak'' demons.

You also need to keep in mind that the MM monster is the ''base'' monster, so just Advance it, add a template or two and maybe even a class level or two...

I suppose that's always an option for in-game balance, but if we don't take the Monster Manual as being at least a little representative of how things "are" in the worlds of Dungeons and Dragons... well it's already a very weird world to try to contextualise. I suppose that would only make it a fraction less clear.



It could be that Bebeliths are know for spending MONTHS tracking a single target, biding their time, and then attacking when its vulnerable... And maybe they mindlessly attack their prey, even when the odds are against them... But what it Bebeliths dont care about that, and just attack until either it or its prey is dead.

Now this I like!

[Ellrin]

Which means [...] that it kills its pray out of malice

Non sequitur. It could be eating them because they're tasty.

Vrocks probably taste like chicken.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Vrock have AC 22 - Bebeliths will hit at anything higher than 2; Succubus - AC 20 - Bebeliths could hit even at "natural 1" (if it wasn't auto-failure :smallsmile:)
Bebeliths have Power Attack. Wouldn't sacrifice of, say, 8 BAB, really improve it's damage output without messing to-hit chance too much?

[Braininthejar2]

Non sequitur. It could be eating them because they're tasty.

Vrocks probably taste like chicken.

A bebilith has a powerful venom in a world where poison immunity is the first special feature anyone gets - it is venomous for no other reason than because the Abyss just F&^%&*g hates everyone.

[Remuko]

Idk if its RAW or not, but I could have swore there was a rule (maybe it was a variant tho) that creatures with DR other than DR/- automatically bypass the DR of creatures with the same type of DR as them. IE DR/magic is automatically bypassed by anything that has DR/magic itself (with natural attacks at least).

[Khedrac]

Idk if its RAW or not, but I could have swore there was a rule (maybe it was a variant tho) that creatures with DR other than DR/- automatically bypass the DR of creatures with the same type of DR as them. IE DR/magic is automatically bypassed by anything that has DR/magic itself (with natural attacks at least).

Unfortunately the rule is close to that but not that. Creatures with substance DRs (DR X/cold iron, X/silver, X/adamantine) automatically bypass their own DR type. The alignment DRs do not have this, instead they usually count as their own alignment for bypassing the opposite DR - hence most demon's natural attacks count as evil.

[CockroachTeaParty]

You could toss a few house rules onto bebeliths to make them more demon-killy. Most of the changes wouldn't even effect PCs, and thus warrant no change in CR.

Give an exception to their poison; it's designed specifically to poison demons, and trumps demonic poison immunity (doesn't effect PCs)

Give them a special quality that allows their attacks to overcome demon DR (doesn't effect PCs)

Another cool idea is to make their webs prevent teleportation, combining their web with dimensional anchor essentially. Now THIS could potentially adversely effect the PCs, and might warrant a bump in CR, but it's niche enough you could probably just let it slide.

[Remuko]

Unfortunately the rule is close to that but not that. Creatures with substance DRs (DR X/cold iron, X/silver, X/adamantine) automatically bypass their own DR type. The alignment DRs do not have this, instead they usually count as their own alignment for bypassing the opposite DR - hence most demon's natural attacks count as evil.

Ah thanks for the clarification!

[Nifft]

I replaced Bebeliths with homebrew monsters.

There's a trapdoor spider analogue which lurks on the near Ethereal and piggy-backs on any Teleport effect within 100 yards, then launches a surprise Pounce attack when the Teleport resolves. Doesn't matter if it's a Teleport in or out, using that effect triggers a Bebelunge. (This is either an advanced version of the Phase Spider, or the Phase Spider is a Material Plane cross-breed with this species.)

There's also a version which spins incoropreal anchor-webs, which are so sticky they extend through the Prime, to the Ethereal, and even the Astral plane. If you're entangled, you can't Teleport, nor can you plane-shift; if you were on the Ethereal or Astral planes, the Webelith can pull you into the Material plane.

Instead of poison, they get an acid-themed rip-off of Hellfire ("ignores acid resistance but also counts as Acid for the purpose of hindering Regeneration"), which disrupts spell-like abilities and (mildly) hinders Concentration since it deals ongoing damage.

Lolth has some servitors of both types. Lolth is scary.

[ShurikVch]

It's one more time when we miss old "numerical" DR: in 3.0 Bebelith had DR 30/+3, which allowed to pierce any DR up to /+3; Balor had DR 30/+3; thus, 3.0 Bebelith was able to hurt any non-[epic] Demon - including Balor
(Also, 3.0 Bebelith had switchable Magic Circle)

[Remuko]

It's one more time when we miss old "numerical" DR: in 3.0 Bebelith had DR 30/+3, which allowed to pierce any DR up to /+3; Balor had DR 30/+3; thus, 3.0 Bebelith was able to hurt any non-[epic] Demon - including Balor
(Also, 3.0 Bebelith had switchable Magic Circle)

that makes a lot of sense.

[Albions_Angel]

That does make sense, sounds like they got updated to the new system correctly, and their fluff got ported over, but just because all the rules were updated, doesnt mean it still fits the fluff. Someone needed to go back and go "hmm, we need to fix this".

If you DM, I would homerule it simply so its DR overcomes DR/evil of DEMONS ONLY.

If you are a player, talk to your DM about adding the same rule. The times it would affect a PC directly are minuscule, as they would need to be playing actual demons, not just fiend templates. Meanwhile, Bebeliths are still powerful, and in the situation when you summon one with the above spell, if they stay and fight, you get to see it rip a much more powerful demon apart.

[ShurikVch]

If you DM, I would homerule it simply so its DR overcomes DR/evil of DEMONS ONLY.There was a joke about Blood War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_War) lasts so damn long because evil outsiders are incapable to pierce each other's DR... :smallamused:

[Thurbane]

I was about to chime in and say "They're constructs?", but I was thinking of Retriever.

How could I possibly get these two mixed up?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG42.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG47.jpg

[Darth Ultron]

I suppose that's always an option for in-game balance, but if we don't take the Monster Manual as being at least a little representative of how things "are" in the worlds of Dungeons and Dragons...

Sadly, the creators absolutely sucked at making things. And everything in the Rules is based around their unbelievably weak and un optimized play style. Like when they were 'play testing' they had a character pick up a shield, and it was like ''my gosh, the character now has an god like AC of 13, nothing in the whole game can ever hit that character again!". Somehow.

[AlanBruce]

I was about to chime in and say "They're constructs?", but I was thinking of Retriever.

How could I possibly get these two mixed up?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG42.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG47.jpg

It's been awhile since I read the MM, but I believe Retrievers were designed by Demon Lords to look like Bebiliths so as to scare the hell out of their targets that much more when sent on a hunt.

This may or may not be existing fluff in canon, though. It's been awhile.

[ShurikVch]

3.0 Retrievers were unstoppable juggernauts, because they had regeneration/Good and Construct traits

[Braininthejar2]

There was a joke about Blood War lasts so damn long because evil outsiders are incapable to pierce each other's DR...

I think there are low planes metals that duplicate the effects of silver and cold iron - cold iron definitely.

I remember some planescape adventure where a demonic prison had some holy relics stashed there for use as torture devices.

I also vaguely remember some FR book where a bunch of fiends subdued the enemy but couldn't overcome his regeneration - so they resorted to eating him alive.

[emeraldstreak]

Bebiliths can planeshift. When they do so, they arrive ~100 miles away from their target, often high above the atmosphere. Then they skydive, scanning for vrock/succubi targets, who are flying about their day never looking up. A surprise improved grab is followed by a crash in the ground the bebilith can survive, but its victim can't.

[ShurikVch]

I think there are low planes metals that duplicate the effects of silver and cold iron - cold iron definitely.The main problem there isn't a special materials, but DR/good
Bless Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWeapon.htm) is on Paladin spell list
Holy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy) weapon "bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it"


I remember some planescape adventure where a demonic prison had some holy relics stashed there for use as torture devices."As torture devices" - maybe; "as battlefield weapons" - ...


I also vaguely remember some FR book where a bunch of fiends subdued the enemy but couldn't overcome his regeneration - so they resorted to eating him alive.Be careful with the novels stuff
For example, in The Ghost King (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_King), Drizzt chopped off Nightwalker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightwalker)'s legs, which cause it to bleed to death
Nightwalker is Undead - thus immune to any blood loss (an it's unclear if it even have any blood to bleed)

[Eldan]

Planescape goes into this a bit more. To quote:




Habitat/Society: Bebiliths prey on, or by some accounts punish, the tanar’ri of the Abyss. They seem to select, by unknown means, certain groups of the major tanar’ri and exterminate them completely, in brief but horrible wars of annihilation. Of equal mystery is the precise way a tanar’ri, one of the cruelest and most chaotic creatures in existence, incurs the wrath of these assassins.

Although creatures roam the Abyss that could destroy a bebilith as a matter of course, nothing ever does. The bebiliths have developed an uncanny mystique, and among the denizens of the Abyss, destroying one is taboo. Some visitors to the Abyss report constructive use of this taboo, such as by entering a bebilith’s vicinity to escape pursuing tanar’ri. Of course, the clever escapees then must escape the bebilith. Conjuring an illusory bebilith would seem a natural idea for the resourceful traveller, hut recorded accounts show mixed results. Apparently the tanar’ri recognize bebiliths not only by sight and sound, but by odor and perhaps spiritual aura. These qualities test the capacity of most illusionists.

Scholars proposed the “spiritual aura” idea because those who have been in the vicinity of the bebilith report a general malaise and sense of futility. However, given the creature’s power, this feeling could be just as easily attributed to sheer terror.


So basically, no one knows, but the Demons are scared of them.

[Braininthejar2]

Nightwalker is Undead - thus immune to any blood loss (an it's unclear if it even have any blood to bleed)

Where can one find more fluff info on nightwalkers? They are non-template "undead" - undead creatures with no living equivalent, and I always find such creatures weird.

[hamishspence]

Where can one find more fluff info on nightwalkers? They are non-template "undead" - undead creatures with no living equivalent, and I always find such creatures weird.

Dragon Magazine's Birth of the Dead article tells us where they come from.

When a fiend is killed on the Negative Energy plane, with its body remaining there rather than disappearing as sometimes happens with fiend deaths - a nightshade arises after the body's been there for a while, marinading in negative energy.

[Tvtyrant]

You could always make it so they don't eat demons, but instead act like a demonic spider-wasp. They web up a demon, insert a clutch of eggs into its body and it gets eaten from inside out. Being demonic gestation is a few days, and cant be removed without miracle or wish.

[Braininthejar2]

That's a very specific set of circumstances...

Fiends don't really have much reason to go to the negative energy plane.

Then again, in the Abyss, even portals are jerks.

[Crake]

Unfortunately the rule is close to that but not that. Creatures with substance DRs (DR X/cold iron, X/silver, X/adamantine) automatically bypass their own DR type. The alignment DRs do not have this, instead they usually count as their own alignment for bypassing the opposite DR - hence most demon's natural attacks count as evil.

As far as I'm aware, this is not true. Only DR/magic has this property, cold iron, silver and adamantine do not. Feel free to prove me wrong, give me a quote, point me to a rule, but as far as I know, this is not true. Maybe it's a pathfinder thing? But this is 3.5

[tiercel]

As far as I'm aware, this is not true. Only DR/magic has this property, cold iron, silver and adamantine do not. Feel free to prove me wrong, give me a quote, point me to a rule, but as far as I know, this is not true. Maybe it's a pathfinder thing? But this is 3.5

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction), at least, having DR/magic means natural weapons are treated as magic for overcoming DR, and having DR/epic means natural weapons are treated as epic for overcoming DR. Having an alignment subtype (regardless of DR) means natural weapons are treated as that alignment for overcoming DR.

DR/special material is indeed not listed as having this property.

That appears to be the general rule, unless Rules Compendium has something else to say about it.

[hamishspence]

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction), at least, having DR/magic means natural weapons are treated as magic for overcoming DR, and having DR/epic means natural weapons are treated as epic for overcoming DR. Having an alignment subtype (regardless of DR) means natural weapons are treated as that alignment for overcoming DR.

DR/special material is indeed not listed as having this property.

For alignment subtypes at least, it's natural weapon plus any weapons wielded. So they don't need to drop their melee weapon (if any) for the fight - they can keep on using it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#evilSubtype


A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

[Khedrac]

As far as I'm aware, this is not true. Only DR/magic has this property, cold iron, silver and adamantine do not. Feel free to prove me wrong, give me a quote, point me to a rule, but as far as I know, this is not true. Maybe it's a pathfinder thing? But this is 3.5
I wonder what I was thinking of when I posted the nonsense - thank-you for the correction.

[hamishspence]

Hilariously, an adamantine golem's slams are not specifically called out as counting as adamantine for overcoming Damage Reduction:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm#adamantineGolem

though in this particular case, I think most DMs would houserule it.