"Tactical" Swordsage/ToB build

[Hyperversum]

Ehi there guys, I was thinking about the build for a new character.

In this campaign I was originally playing a Binder/Warlock character, but since the campaign went heavily toward a "Explore Dungeon & Smash Heads" and that we had like 2 sessions for now, I wanted to save the concept of the character I was playing for another campaign. Also, because another character was going to change and we don't have a ****ing rogue or scout in a heavy-dungeon campaign.

My first idea was the classic TWF Swordsage that I have seen playing but never made myself, the second was something more "tactical", maybe the classical spam of trip with a reach weapon while moving on the field, not being the guy with heavy armor. The point is, I have no real idea about to build such a thing, or which (if any) PRC is worth it.

My first idea was to use the scout to get myself skills and skirmish (which, at low level since we are still at level 3 may be a decent thing) rather than the Rogue, then go SS and if possible go for Master of the Nine.

ANY kind of suggestion?
Only houserules we use are the following: Maximum HP on every level and weapons with the ability to be used with Weapon Finesse automatically uses Dexterity to hit, while the feat allows to use Dex rather than Str to damage, but only if the target can receive damage from Sneak Attack.

P.S. The other option I was thinking was a Gish with Jade Phoenix, with a focus on controlling spells, while I use my reach weapon.

P.P.S. My stats are: 18/17/15/15/14/10

P.P.P.S. I can consider using Warblade, no Crusader.

[mabriss lethe]

Swordsage, being 3/4 BAB is going to be somewhat handicapped compared to other, full BAB classes when it comes to tactical options. It's a style that's somewhat outside their wheelhouse. They can sort-of manage, but it will never be a really effective shtick for them.

[Hyperversum]

Swordsage, being 3/4 BAB is going to be somewhat handicapped compared to other, full BAB classes when it comes to tactical options. It's a style that's somewhat outside their wheelhouse. They can sort-of manage, but it will never be a really effective shtick for them.

That's true, but considering that the party isn't THAT much optimal, it could work. I would have used Warblade from the start, but my friend doing the big tank with the Knight would hate me for it, probably.

[RFLS]

Shameless plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259783-3-5-Swordsage-Handbook-This-one-ll-walk-the-whole-Way-WIP-PEACH)

[Hyperversum]

Shameless plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259783-3-5-Swordsage-Handbook-This-one-ll-walk-the-whole-Way-WIP-PEACH)

Obviously I have seen your handbook <3
I built the 2WF Swordsage that my brother used in my campaign using some info from it.

I have the basics info, what I miss are ideas about how to make if somewhat effective. I mean, I could go for Wizard/Swordsage and make the fastest possible enter in JPM, or complitely ignore the gish idea and focus on the manuevers.

[RFLS]

Obviously I have seen your handbook <3
I built the 2WF Swordsage that my brother used in my campaign using some info from it.

I have the basics info, what I miss are ideas about how to make if somewhat effective. I mean, I could go for Wizard/Swordsage and make the fastest possible enter in JPM, or complitely ignore the gish idea and focus on the manuevers.

The Wizard/SS -> JPM is probably going to be your most effective tripper, what with Tenser's Transformation. Because you're only going to be using a few maneuvers, Sorcerer might be a better entry, so you have spells to burn on your JPM abilities. If you're going Strength, goliath is a viable race option, especially if LA buyoff is on the table.

If you're focusing on Dex (which Setting Sun lets you do), I'd still recommend finding a way to get Tenser's Transformation. The other recommendation is to see if Agile Maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat/) from Pathfinder is on the table (I doubt it, but asking can't hurt. Unless it can. I don't know your DM).

Since the edit to your OP says you're considering Warblade; if that's the case, be aware that grabbing Setting Sun is going to be difficult (I can't actually remember how, off the top of my head). However, it will lead from Wizard into JPM much better. A possible build would be SS1/Wiz 3/Warblade 1/SS 1/JPM. It grabs you a few Setting Sun maneuvers, focuses on Int, gets you the SS skill points at first level, etc.

Edit: Ability Focus is worth looking at.

[Nifft]

When I think of a "tactical" initiator, it's usually a Crusader or Warblade.

White Raven is great for group tactics, and Divine Spirit isn't bad either.

Swordsage is great, but it's more inward-focused than tactical.

[Hyperversum]

The Wizard/SS -> JPM is probably going to be your most effective tripper, what with Tenser's Transformation. Because you're only going to be using a few maneuvers, Sorcerer might be a better entry, so you have spells to burn on your JPM abilities. If you're going Strength, goliath is a viable race option, especially if LA buyoff is on the table.

If you're focusing on Dex (which Setting Sun lets you do), I'd still recommend finding a way to get Tenser's Transformation. The other recommendation is to see if Agile Maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat/) from Pathfinder is on the table (I doubt it, but asking can't hurt. Unless it can. I don't know your DM).

Since the edit to your OP says you're considering Warblade; if that's the case, be aware that grabbing Setting Sun is going to be difficult (I can't actually remember how, off the top of my head). However, it will lead from Wizard into JPM much better. A possible build would be SS1/Wiz 3/Warblade 1/SS 1/JPM. It grabs you a few Setting Sun maneuvers, focuses on Int, gets you the SS skill points at first level, etc.

Edit: Ability Focus is worth looking at.

Personally, I would limite myself to one class from ToB, just to make the build more "clear".
I mean, exactly for what is that level in warblade at level 1? I am not that keen in ToB to see it.
Also, forgot to say that we use a variant similar to the "War Sorcerer" for the Wizard since nobody used the War Sorcerer but wanted to use it for Wizard.
You remove 1/2 (can't remember now, check it up) school and one slot per day in order to receive medium BAB and d8.

I can use even such a thing. I am not a fan of sorcerer-gish builds because the spells known are so few I spend more time on it than on every single other things in the campaign.

A SS3/War-Wizard3 would give me not that many slots but enough to make some CC and similar things, while from SS I take the manuevers I need.
The same could be done with the Warblade, but to keep a decent mobility I should drop the medium armor anyway.

Since we are here, want about a full Manuever build focused on mobility and tripping? Is that viable without having 18+ in Str?

[BowStreetRunner]

For a party that lacks a trapfinder, another option to consider would be a Human TWF Ranger with the Trap Expert ACF from Dungeonscape and Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny, going into Warblade. You shouldn't overlap too greatly with a Crusader tank build, as you're not really about attracting attention to yourself and soaking up huge amounts of damage. But you're a bit beefier than a swordsage.

[Hyperversum]

For a party that lacks a trapfinder, another option to consider would be a Human TWF Ranger with the Trap Expert ACF from Dungeonscape and Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny, going into Warblade. You shouldn't overlap too greatly with a Crusader tank build, as you're not really about attracting attention to yourself and soaking up huge amounts of damage. But you're a bit beefier than a swordsage.

This is an idea I didn't think about. It costs 2 levels, but gives me a free feat for the combat style. I will consider it!
Yet, the main problem, is deciding which style I want to use ahahha.

Another idea would be Warblade 3/SS2/Warblade 1/Something after.
This way I am able to get myself a 3rd level stance from Warblade list, Wis to AC and something from the SS list, that improves my ability as 2WF.

Such a build would be viable for a CC based on reach weapon in the same way?

[RFLS]

Personally, I would limite myself to one class from ToB, just to make the build more "clear".
I mean, exactly for what is that level in warblade at level 1? I am not that keen in ToB to see it.
Also, forgot to say that we use a variant similar to the "War Sorcerer" for the Wizard since nobody used the War Sorcerer but wanted to use it for Wizard.
You remove 1/2 (can't remember now, check it up) school and one slot per day in order to receive medium BAB and d8.

I can use even such a thing. I am not a fan of sorcerer-gish builds because the spells known are so few I spend more time on it than on every single other things in the campaign.

A SS3/War-Wizard3 would give me not that many slots but enough to make some CC and similar things, while from SS I take the manuevers I need.
The same could be done with the Warblade, but to keep a decent mobility I should drop the medium armor anyway.

Since we are here, want about a full Manuever build focused on mobility and tripping? Is that viable without having 18+ in Str?

Warblade 1 gives you some spam-able maneuvers (which is nice, considering Swordsage blows for getting maneuvers back), a level of full BAB, a full initiator level, and Weapon Aptitude (which means you can focus on whatever the best trip weapon you have at the time is) It's there to keep your martial side up after you get 2nd level spells for entry into JPM. It could be replaced with a level of SS pretty easily, though.

But basically, you want to have SS as your last level before entering JPM to pick up the highest level Setting Sun maneuver(s) you can.

Honestly, the viability without having 18+ Str is completely dependent on the campaign. If you're fighting CR-appropriate encounters, then no, it won't cut it.

[Hyperversum]

Warblade 1 gives you some spam-able maneuvers (which is nice, considering Swordsage blows for getting maneuvers back), a level of full BAB, a full initiator level, and Weapon Aptitude (which means you can focus on whatever the best trip weapon you have at the time is) It's there to keep your martial side up after you get 2nd level spells for entry into JPM. It could be replaced with a level of SS pretty easily, though.

But basically, you want to have SS as your last level before entering JPM to pick up the highest level Setting Sun maneuver(s) you can.

Honestly, the viability without having 18+ Str is completely dependent on the campaign. If you're fighting CR-appropriate encounters, then no, it won't cut it.

Then, I will consider it. Mostly because... does Weapon Aptitude works for Exotic Weapon Prof? I mean, For how I read it does, but it indeed feels a bit... cheesy.

[RFLS]

Then, I will consider it. Mostly because... does Weapon Aptitude works for Exotic Weapon Prof? I mean, For how I read it does, but it indeed feels a bit... cheesy.

It does indeed. RAI, too, as far as I can tell.

The one that's not RAI is allowing it to work with Lightning Maces.

[Hyperversum]

It does indeed. RAI, too, as far as I can tell.

The one that's not RAI is allowing it to work with Lightning Maces.

Not that relevant anyway, I don't like impact-based weapon for such a combat style.
Style comes before bonus attacks, doesn't it? Anyway, for a Reach weapon I would keep my chain close to me anyway, and for TFW I am considering the leven lightblade, which works very well imo with crit-based things.

BTW, I rolled my stats and I will include them in the first post: 18/17/15/15/14/10. Yeah, I was pretty lucky for once.

I can easily dump CHA in any build, and I can recover some HPs by putting the 17 in CON, so that even by not using the War-Wizard variant I have some decent HPs, while obviously the 18 should go to my "main" stats: for a 2WF is obviously Dex, while for a tripper with the Chain... eh, I honestly don't know. +8 in trip checks is good, but still needs some help to truly shine.

[BowStreetRunner]

Not that relevant anyway, I don't like impact-based weapon for such a combat style.
LOL. Actually, the whole point of the Lightning Maces cheese is to make it apply to any weapon you want. For instance, turning it effectively into Lightning Kukris. Essentially, players argue that where Weapon Aptitude states that you are allowed "to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon" and that the Lightning Mace feat qualifies. However, lots of DMs will argue it was intended only for feats where you choose a weapon, allowing you to change your choice, not for feats that specifically name only one possible weapon, with no choice.

Personally, I don't recommend attempting to argue this unless you are certain your DM is favorable toward cheese and there are no heavy objects within the DM's reach when you propose the idea. :smallbiggrin:

[RFLS]

LOL. Actually, the whole point of the Lightning Maces cheese is to make it apply to any weapon you want. For instance, turning it effectively into Lightning Kukris. Essentially, players argue that where Weapon Aptitude states that you are allowed "to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon" and that the Lightning Mace feat qualifies. However, lots of DMs will argue it was intended only for feats where you choose a weapon, allowing you to change your choice, not for feats that specifically name only one possible weapon, with no choice.

Personally, I don't recommend attempting to argue this unless you are certain your DM is favorable toward cheese and there are no heavy objects within the DM's reach when you propose the idea. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, this is pretty accurate. I don't recommend trying it.

Unless, say, your idiot partner is running a one-shot where she thinks that the goal is a tpk, and the players think it's supposed to be a lighthearted romp, while you know better. Then you cheese that up through the Aptitude weapon quality with Kaorti resin, Keen kukris, Blood in the Water, TWF, and...I don't remember what else. Then, when she inflicts an Ancient dragon on the level 12 party, you one-shot that thing.

I do not miss that relationship. I did learn about crit-fishing, though.

[Hyperversum]

I got accused of cheese while making a mailman, such a thing would just get me beaten down by not only DM, but my own self.

This is cheese. But a good cheese. I mean, someone ever used those feats?