Time it takes to loot

[Coffee_Dragon]

A body lies sprawled at the base of a tower, in view of enemy crossbowmen. My monk is at the top of the tower and wants a specific item suspected to be on the sprawly person. Combat is about to end and the DM is basically winding down the last round with the people who didn't act in it yet.

I optimistically suggest I could do the following on my turn:

* Use my move and Slow Fall to slide down the tower to the body,

* Use my action to Search and hopefully locate the object,

* Use my object interaction to pick it up (or, failing that, one or more of the potions and pouches clearly visible by the body),

* Use my bonus action and Unarmored Movement to Dash and run back up to the nearest open window,

* And still have my reaction to casually grab an arrow behind my back with Deflect Missiles on the off chance that a crossbowman has readied an action to fire at me (one other PC had already been in range earlier that round and didn't get fired on).

The DM said there was no way that would fit inside a turn and ruled that if I wanted to loot the body, I would have to end the turn beside it. It's fair and (this time) inconsequential, but I was wondering if anyone here would allow the above based on a strict application of the action economy. (It's kinda fun to just unload the monk Swiss knife all at once.)

[Zanthy1]

I am at a loss. On one hand, it seems impossible to do ALL that in the rough expanse of 6 seconds, HOWEVER going by your description it seems totally legit.

One thing I would want to know was how high up the tower y'all were, and how high the nearest window is, because descending (even with slow fall) might take longer than you thought as well as climbing back up. Personally if I were DM I probably wouldn't allow it, just because of how much suspending my disbelief it would require.

[smcmike]

I probably would have allowed it, assuming the item was small and not well hidden or secured. Like, you would not be able to retrieve his armor or the secret message he had sewn into his undergarments, but you could totally snatch his hat or his pouch. The movement is ridiculous, but monks are supposed to be ridiculous.

[Coffee_Dragon]

One thing I would want to know was how high up the tower y'all were, and how high the nearest window is, because descending (even with slow fall) might take longer than you thought as well as climbing back up.

Whole tower was five floors, so maybe a little over 50', and the nearest open window on the third floor. Character's movement being 60', so should be no problem to make it down (Slow Falling for 50'), and just about enough to make it back up to 25-30' at double cost.

[Laserlight]

If you jump off a 60ft tower and don't have a means to slow yourself down, it takes 2 seconds just to hit the ground. You can't possibly do all that in six seconds.

Oh, wait, you're playing a game in which dragons can fly, and your character has abilities that include absurd amounts of movement. Never mind.

[Asmotherion]

You could technically "search" for it, but not do a full body search. Perhaps you'd find a random piece of equipment. Your DM could Roll Percentage Dice to determine what you find with your "Search" action.

Or your DM could Pre-Determine exactly where on the body there is for example, his purse, his MacGufin, his Hidden Dagger, and each round you can call 1 place to search (Like a pseudo-battleship), until you find the right spots, or you can take an extended action to examin the body.

As a Monk (or Rogue), I'd be tempted to give you 2-3 calls, due to Speed and agility (and, in the Rogue's case, knowing what he's doing).

I generally respect a DM's attempt to bring Realism to the Game. Not that it would be a Bother if Looting would Freeze-Time till you picked what you want, but this gives more realism to the whole experiance.

Overall, if I was not going for a Realistic D&D, I would have no problem allowing you doing what you suggested.

[Eloel]

Whole tower was five floors, so maybe a little over 50', and the nearest open window on the third floor. Character's movement being 60', so should be no problem to make it down (Slow Falling for 50'), and just about enough to make it back up to 25-30' at double cost.

I can't find any reference to how long it takes to search a body, but if you were strong enough, you could easily grab the whole body and move up the wall and into the tower instead. Easily, as in, since the body is an object, it's "interacting with an object" to pick it up, and you can move up to 3 times your speed using Dash twice.

[MaxWilson]

* And still have my reaction to casually grab an arrow behind my back with Deflect Missiles on the off chance that a crossbowman has readied an action to fire at me (one other PC had already been in range earlier that round and didn't get fired on).

You already used your reaction on Slow Fall.

[Cespenar]

I can't see a single reason why you couldn't pull that off, considering you succeed on your Investigation check.

This is a game where you can wound dragons and golems with daggers and longswords (note that I'm not even going into the magical here), and a swift guy being swift is unbelievable? Not to mention that the crunch is all in order as well. Seriously.

If I really wanted to hinder the monk while having a semblance of fairness, I would give disadvantage to the Investigation check for being made in such haste.

Or, rather a more fun approach would be to ask the monk "where on the body does he reach for". Gives a choice and awards thinking, while not cramping his style.

[StorytellerHero]

Unless you're only rifling through a single pocket in obvious view, Searching would take more than a single action.

I'd rule that unless the PC knew exactly where to look, it would take at least a full minute to do so.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I probably would have allowed it, assuming the item was small and not well hidden or secured. Like, you would not be able to retrieve his armor or the secret message he had sewn into his undergarments, but you could totally snatch his hat or his pouch.


You could technically "search" for it, but not do a full body search. Perhaps you'd find a random piece of equipment. Your DM could Roll Percentage Dice to determine what you find with your "Search" action.

The item was a brooch which turned out to be worn normally beneath a cloak, so all that was needed to spot it, as ultimately described, would be to possibly flip over the body and then pull the cloak aside. It seems like a fine solution to let a search roll retroactively define how findable the item was if the DM didn't already know.


The movement is ridiculous, but monks are supposed to be ridiculous.

Yeah, I'm guessing it's not controversial that with a 60' movement rate you get to sprint 180' with a double Dash, but sandwiching some action between two movement allowances probably makes it seem like you're piling things up inordinately, as if the transition between parts of a turn also should eat up time. Running 60' or 180' on flat ground makes little difference to visualization, while adding concrete actions, more specific movement options and transitional elements makes it easier to measure a turn's content of stuff against 6 seconds and feel something isn't right.


I can't find any reference to how long it takes to search a body, but if you were strong enough, you could easily grab the whole body and move up the wall and into the tower instead. Easily, as in, since the body is an object, it's "interacting with an object" to pick it up, and you can move up to 3 times your speed using Dash twice.

I think that would have strained my suspension of disbelief quite a bit more, actually...


You already used your reaction on Slow Fall.

You are correct - I would have had to eat any incoming bolts if they managed to hit me.


Unless you're only rifling through a single pocket in obvious view, Searching would take more than a single action.

I'd rule that unless the PC knew exactly where to look, it would take at least a full minute to do so.

My action every turn for twelve turns? D: That seems to effectively rule that searching someone is not something you ever do in combat time. Better have the party show each other ahead of time exactly where they keep their healing potions... Just to note, Search is defined as a single action letting you "devote your attention to finding something", but not going into details of scope.

Another consideration: assuming I'm not allowed to search the body in a single turn, that frees up my bonus action to Dodge instead. Now I'm thinking maybe someone somewhere is visualizing someone bouncing manically around a body occasionally prodding and grabbing at it and saying nope, no searching and dodging in the same time span. :)

[Tanarii]

Whole tower was five floors, so maybe a little over 50', and the nearest open window on the third floor. Character's movement being 60', so should be no problem to make it down (Slow Falling for 50'), and just about enough to make it back up to 25-30' at double cost.Given the distance down is less than your movement, it seems reasonable to me that your Slow Fall-ing could substitute for normal movement. Followed by Action (Search), free object interaction, and Ki point to Dash as a bonus action to an (I assume open already) window at 1/2 your move.

I'd definitely allow it based on it being no more than you could do normally on a turn. The key here is the fall distance is already less than your move anyway, so it doesn't seem like there should be any big issues.

Edit: I'm also assuming the searching would only take a round with an appropriate DC. That's definitely not always going to be the case.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Does a dead body count as a single object? Because you can interact with a single object as part of your move action. That way you can jump down, search the body and get back into cover without even using your action. If the DM won't let you search him as a single interaction, you could always just pick it up and search it next turn in safety.

With a bit less kidding: your DM has a point that searching is not an action meant to be taken in the standard action slot during a round of fighting. He would probably allow it for small searches, like when you knew the object you wanted was in his left coat pocket specifically and you just had to reach in to find it. But giving a body a good patting down, turning it around and continuing on the back pockets, that's probably a bit much. If you combine that with a maxed out amount of movement that's already stretching the meaning of the word reasonable and that's story-wise only possible because you're really quick at attacking/taking your standard action as well, yeah, I see his point. If he starts pulling this stuff on normal combat maneuvers, things the rule book says you're definitely able to do within a single round, that's when you go rules lawyer on him.

EDIT: See below why I'm wrong.

[Tanarii]

With a bit less kidding: your DM has a point that searching is not an action meant to be taken in the standard action slot during a round of fighting.Search is a combat action. PHB 192.

What can be found in a single round of searching, or if more than one round of searching is required to make a check, is of course up to the DM. But it very clearly exists as an action meant to be taken in the standard action slot during a round of fighting, if that's sufficient.

[willdaBEAST]

If you jump off a 60ft tower and don't have a means to slow yourself down, it takes 2 seconds just to hit the ground. You can't possibly do all that in six seconds.

Oh, wait, you're playing a game in which dragons can fly, and your character has abilities that include absurd amounts of movement. Never mind.
Somehow monk abilities trigger my "that is totally illogical" alarm, even in the context of the fantastical elements of DnD. The unarmored movement boost at 9th level, while cool, seems insane to me when you can double dash and run 180 ft up a vertical wall (I love the running on liquid part of it though). At that point I'd rather the monk have the ability to fly without hovering, I have trouble visualizing what it would look like to run that far up a wall. Is the monk running normally but perpendicular to the wall like they have magnetic boots on? Are they doing a technique similar to how trained athletes can use steps to vault up a vertical surface?

As far as the OP's question, as a DM I would require an action for some kind of search DC to find the object unless it was already visible. I don't think it'd be out of line to have some kind of dex check or sleight of hand check to grab it while in motion (I'd grade this based on things like, is it affixed to the corpse? If it's something like a necklace, do you care about breaking the loop, etc), especially if enemies were shooting arrows/bolts at you. I think the additional dex based check helps account for how quickly this is all happening and how precise the monk would need to be.

[Coffee_Dragon]

But giving a body a good patting down, turning it around and continuing on the back pockets, that's probably a bit much.

EDIT: See below why I'm wrong.

Tangentially and in your defence, something like the above description but cranked up to ten is what sets off my own illogicality alarm in the case of the Healer feat. To meaningfully bandage someone you have to remove any armour, maybe clean the wound, apply mystical poultices or whatever is in a healing kit and/or wrap bandages, for which you certainly need two free hands, while the recipient keeps perfectly still, and the two of you are certainly not being flame whipped by a balor in the neighbouring square. Yet by the rules this happens as an action, or in the case of a thief, a bonus action: I have to imagine someone just waving a healing kit in the recipient's general direction for a second and pink sparklies travel through the air to mend wounds. This is enough to make me go, "No. No way in the seven hecks is that a thing in this game." But I know a lot of people allow it since the rules say you can.


The unarmored movement boost at 9th level, while cool, seems insane to me when you can double dash and run 180 ft up a vertical wall (I love the running on liquid part of it though). At that point I'd rather the monk have the ability to fly without hovering, I have trouble visualizing what it would look like to run that far up a wall. Is the monk running normally but perpendicular to the wall like they have magnetic boots on? Are they doing a technique similar to how trained athletes can use steps to vault up a vertical surface?

I have assumed a ruling that running upwards costs an extra foot of movement, like climbing, even though there may not be a written rule to that effect. (It occurs to me to wonder how Second-Story Work or Athlete would affect this. Maybe the 180' vertical monk is a possibility even without the most generous ruling.) As for how it looks, I'm thinking Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time or games with similar wall-running mechanisms, amped up as necessary. Like kung-fu fighters leaping between twigs in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or warriors bouncing off a water surface in Hero, it's obviously bogus to us, yet not quite magic-level bogus in the movie/game reality.

[willdaBEAST]

I have assumed a ruling that running upwards costs an extra foot of movement, like climbing, even though there may not be a written rule to that effect. (It occurs to me to wonder how Second-Story Work or Athlete would affect this. Maybe the 180' vertical monk is a possibility even without the most generous ruling.) As for how it looks, I'm thinking Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time or games with similar wall-running mechanisms, amped up as necessary. Like kung-fu fighters leaping between twigs in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or warriors bouncing off a water surface in Hero, it's obviously bogus to us, yet not quite magic-level bogus in the movie/game reality.
I don't think there's a climbing penalty, at least from what I've read. Does anyone rule differently? In terms of game mechanics I'd allow the full 180 ft of vertical movement.

Prince of Persia is def what I visualize for this and the long distance horizontal movement along a wall makes much more sense to me, since there's a bit of a parabolic arc to it. With the vertical running up a wall, it's certainly possible in reality but you're limited to about 3 steps (I believe the record is about 13 ft). That's where the 180 ft starts to feel ridiculous to me, where is the propulsion coming from? I'd rather visualize some kind of ki powered super jump or flight than a monk running perpendicular to the wall or managing to stick to the wall continuously as they're doing an elongated version of the Prince of Persia move.

[Tanarii]

I have assumed a ruling that running upwards costs an extra foot of movement, like climbing, even though there may not be a written rule to that effect. (It occurs to me to wonder how Second-Story Work or Athlete would affect this. Maybe the 180' vertical monk is a possibility even without the most generous ruling.) As for how it looks, I'm thinking Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time or games with similar wall-running mechanisms, amped up as necessary. Like kung-fu fighters leaping between twigs in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or warriors bouncing off a water surface in Hero, it's obviously bogus to us, yet not quite magic-level bogus in the movie/game reality.
An old thread I started on this class feature:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497462-Monk-s-Unarmored-Movement-improvement

[Coffee_Dragon]

An old thread I started on this class feature:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497462-Monk-s-Unarmored-Movement-improvement

Thanks! A hugely scientific survey of GitP posters indicates "along" should be interpreted as "any which way" and no direction is "climbing" or difficult terrain, with just one other poster going with up being difficult terrain, and several posters suggesting it's badwrong to go with any but the most generous interpretation. I will pitch this to my DM to be sure.

I found a single Sage Advice tweet where someone asked if a monk can move a grappled creature up a wall to drop them for damage, and JC with characteristic crypticality replied that grappling "works with any sort of movement", leading us to wonder whether he just stated by implication that monks can indeed move effortlessly straight up with some hapless fellow without having to count as lifting them or suffering any other sort of gravity- or direction-related inconvenience.

Also, since reading is tech, I actually looked closely at the 5E Slow Fall and saw that not only is it a reaction (whereas in 3E it just modified falling), it also works by reducing damage (whereas in 3E it reduced effective falling distance). But since a 10th-level monk can nullify the average damage of falling 140' or max damage of falling 80', this makes no difference in this scenario.

[willdaBEAST]

I found a single Sage Advice tweet where someone asked if a monk can move a grappled creature up a wall to drop them for damage, and JC with characteristic crypticality replied that grappling "works with any sort of movement", leading us to wonder whether he just stated by implication that monks can indeed move effortlessly straight up with some hapless fellow without having to count as lifting them or suffering any other sort of gravity- or direction-related inconvenience.
You half your speed when dragging a grappled target unless the target is 2 or more sizes smaller (you can't grapple a target 2 sizes larger). So you could totally grapple an eligible target, run up a wall and drop them. As a DM I would give the falling creature an opportunity to try to hold on to you, but if you're going strictly RAW, you can break the grapple at any time and theoretically drop them.

[Tanarii]

Thanks! A hugely scientific survey of GitP posters indicates "along" should be interpreted as "any which way" and no direction is "climbing" or difficult terrain, with just one other poster going with up being difficult terrain, and several posters suggesting it's badwrong to go with any but the most generous interpretation. I will pitch this to my DM to be sure.Not sure why, can't quite put my finger on it, but I suspect i may be the target of some nonbluetext sarcasm. 😂😂😂

[Falcon X]

Depends on the total distance travelled. If the tower is more than 30’ up, you will have to use your action to move further.
But if the travel distance is the same, just vertical, I’d say it’s fine.

Also, try to find a magical Bag of Quick Looting. You open the sack, and everything of value on a person gets sucked into the bag. Takes a bonus action.
(Yes, I made that up. But I’d let my players have it)

[Zalabim]

Tangentially and in your defence, something like the above description but cranked up to ten is what sets off my own illogicality alarm in the case of the Healer feat. To meaningfully bandage someone you have to remove any armour, maybe clean the wound, apply mystical poultices or whatever is in a healing kit and/or wrap bandages, for which you certainly need two free hands, while the recipient keeps perfectly still, and the two of you are certainly not being flame whipped by a balor in the neighbouring square. Yet by the rules this happens as an action, or in the case of a thief, a bonus action: I have to imagine someone just waving a healing kit in the recipient's general direction for a second and pink sparklies travel through the air to mend wounds. This is enough to make me go, "No. No way in the seven hecks is that a thing in this game." But I know a lot of people allow it since the rules say you can.
On a tangent, but I found a picture of this magical item.https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/residentevil/images/b/b7/RE2_First_Aid_Spray_pickup_01_proto.png

[hymer]

To meaningfully bandage someone you have to remove any armour, maybe clean the wound, apply mystical poultices or whatever is in a healing kit and/or wrap bandages, for which you certainly need two free hands, while the recipient keeps perfectly still, and the two of you are certainly not being flame whipped by a balor in the neighbouring square. Yet by the rules this happens as an action, or in the case of a thief, a bonus action: I have to imagine someone just waving a healing kit in the recipient's general direction for a second and pink sparklies travel through the air to mend wounds. This is enough to make me go, "No. No way in the seven hecks is that a thing in this game." But I know a lot of people allow it since the rules say you can.

I allow the 'heal as an action' to work in combat in my games, but we fluff it differently. It's rather the healer looking quickly at the injury and assuring the character that they'll be fine. The actual cleaning and stitching or whatever goes on happens when there's time. And when it's done out of battle, it takes something more like ten minutes.

[Lombra]

DM may rule that searching for a specific item on a body could require multiple attempts if a first investigation check fails, but dropping down and coming up, if you are at least 9th level, should be no problem.

[Coffee_Dragon]

You half your speed when dragging a grappled target unless the target is 2 or more sizes smaller (you can't grapple a target 2 sizes larger). So you could totally grapple an eligible target, run up a wall and drop them. As a DM I would give the falling creature an opportunity to try to hold on to you, but if you're going strictly RAW, you can break the grapple at any time and theoretically drop them.

I'm just not a huge fan of the idea that a monk could be entirely incapable of lifting an ogre replica bean bag off the ground, but entirely capable of grabbing on to the real thing, "dragging" it 90' up a vertical cliff - no lifting or carrying involved - depositing it on the clifftop and then accepting a gold piece for the shortcut. It raises questions that are not all about verisimilitude.


Not sure why, can't quite put my finger on it, but I suspect i may be the target of some nonbluetext sarcasm. 😂😂😂

Not what I would call sarcasm here actually: "hugely scientific survey" is a bit of hyperbole obviously, but only meant to say I did read the thread and tally up the opinions, and the rest was my more or less straightforward summary. The clear majority thought "along" didn't imply "horizontally" and that there shouldn't be a climbing penalty, and at least a couple of them had implied derision for anyone who could think otherwise.


I allow the 'heal as an action' to work in combat in my games, but we fluff it differently. It's rather the healer looking quickly at the injury and assuring the character that they'll be fine. The actual cleaning and stitching or whatever goes on happens when there's time. And when it's done out of battle, it takes something more like ten minutes.

"This wound? Stop griping, you'll be fine."

"How can you say that? You didn't even whip out the placebo kit!"

"Uh, oh - drat. I left it at the inn."

"But then - the wound -" *dies*

[JungleChicken]

I'd liken the combat search much like how you see a soldier scrambling to get a magazine from a fallen soldier while under fire.

It's not something that you WANT to devote your round to doing but it can be done unless there has been effort to hide or make it difficult.

We are generally talking about pockets and pouches on a person if I am understanding everything

[Tanarii]

Not what I would call sarcasm here actually: "hugely scientific survey" is a bit of hyperbole obviously, but only meant to say I did read the thread and tally up the opinions, and the rest was my more or less straightforward summary. The clear majority thought "along" didn't imply "horizontally" and that there shouldn't be a climbing penalty, and at least a couple of them had implied derision for anyone who could think otherwise.

Yeah. My and/or one of my players being on the opposite side of the majority of a thread responders common interpretation of a rule didn't worry me, it happens often enough. Although I do find it interesting when it happens.

But the "your interpretation/ruling is anti-player" stuff threw me for a bit of a loop. I'll never understand where that kind of mentality comes from.

[willdaBEAST]

I'm just not a huge fan of the idea that a monk could be entirely incapable of lifting an ogre replica bean bag off the ground, but entirely capable of grabbing on to the real thing, "dragging" it 90' up a vertical cliff - no lifting or carrying involved - depositing it on the clifftop and then accepting a gold piece for the shortcut. It raises questions that are not all about verisimilitude.
I'm with you, but this is a pretty situational ability and to be able to reliably pull it off the monk would need to invest in strength (whether through stats or an attuned magic item) to win in a contest vs an ogre. As a DM I've been trying to embrace crazy things like this more, no matter how counterintuitive they feel. Part of it comes down to player fun and rule of cool, but I think DMs should indulge players if they use limited stat resources to create some kind of specialization. With the monk, if they aren't boosting dex and wisdom, they're going to be at a huge disadvantage in all other situations. You also can't run up a high enough wall in most dungeons, or out in the open. Something like a column I'd rule as a vertical surface, but a tree with branches would require some additional checks imo. Depending on the density of the branches it might make it impossible to drag a creature with you. I guess I'm starting to see monk abilities more like a fantastical version of Tai Chi, harnessing their ki allows the monk to temporarily do things well beyond their normal abilities (like dragging an ogre up a wall).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

On a tangent, but I found a picture of this magical item.https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/residentevil/images/b/b7/RE2_First_Aid_Spray_pickup_01_proto.png

It contains a disinfectant, a coagulant and a light bio-polymer for covering the wound.




Perfect for deep wounds and severed limbs!

(Actually, as sarcastic as the first part of this post was, I think there either could already be products like this, or a real market for someone to develop one. I call it a booboo-spray, for all your little booboo's.)

[johnbragg]

If you jump off a 60ft tower and don't have a means to slow yourself down, it takes 2 seconds just to hit the ground. You can't possibly do all that in six seconds.

Oh, wait, you're playing a game in which dragons can fly, and your character has abilities that include absurd amounts of movement. Never mind.

My first reaction was "Hell no." Then I remembered that you chose build options that let you do that, in preference to other build options that would let you do other things, so probably. Biggest question is whether a single action Search is enough to find the Thing on the body. Everything else is an ability you bought-and-paid-for in character creation in one way or another.

[willdaBEAST]

My first reaction was "Hell no." Then I remembered that you chose build options that let you do that, in preference to other build options that would let you do other things, so probably. Biggest question is whether a single action Search is enough to find the Thing on the body. Everything else is an ability you bought-and-paid-for in character creation in one way or another.
This is a bit of the sentiment I was trying to capture in my earlier post. As a DM I'm trying to move away from knee jerk reactions like "that doesn't make any sense" and account for what kind of resource investment the player made in their character creation to allow them to achieve what seem like bizarre results. It's frustrating when as a player you devote specialization to an ability that is not rewarded. In my case (which is more minor) I haven't been able to "persuade" a single NPC or PC about anything, no matter how much is role-played or how specific I am about how I'm trying to persuade them.