ASI or feat?

[Gungor]

Playing a mountain dwarf fighter, stats 18 14 18 8 10 8, just hit sixth level. I am a two-handed melee specialist, so I’m currently +7 to hit and +4 damage.

My question is, should I take the ASI to make my Str 20, giving me +8/+5, or should I take a feat like GWM? Or some other feat?

I’m leaning towards the 20 Str for now, but then the question becomes what feat to take at level 8? Playing AL Tomb of Annihilation and I expect to max this character out at level 10 or 11.

[strangebloke]

In terms of combat ability, GWM gives you a lot more than an ASI. It's a very strong feat. As a str-based fighter, it's the best feat in the game for you.

You don't need to take it to be effective, but from an optimization perspective there's nothing better.

Polearm-master is also very good and combos with GWM beautifully.

[bid]

Str18 is good enough until level 12 or so. You can get it earlier, but don't let it slow you.

PAM or GWM is pretty typical, pick whichever suits your fancy.
GWM synergize well with precision attack, if you went BM.

If combat power wasn't that important, you could lucky or magic initiate to cover utilities.

[Tanarii]

Str18 is good enough until level 12 or so. You can get it earlier, but don't let it slow you.
Str 18 is "good enough" for the entire game. The system math "expects" a 16 for low and medium levels (1-10) and a 18 for high and epic levels (11-20). A 20 is always ahead of the system math.

[sithlordnergal]

As a frontline fighter, you really only need a 16 in your attack stat, so 18 is more then enough for a while. I'd go with GWM over a measly +1 to damage and hit.

[Gungor]

In terms of combat ability, GWM gives you a lot more than an ASI. It's a very strong feat. As a str-based fighter, it's the best feat in the game for you.


So this is the crux of my question. I’ve done the math, and from an average DPR perspective, using the -5/+10 aspect of GWM with 18 Str outperforms a standard attack with 20 Str only for targets of AC 15 or less, and I feel like at level 6 most enemies will have a higher AC.

The other aspect of the feat, getting a bonus attack on a crit or a kill, is nice. Crits don’t come that often, and the other trigger depends on whether it’s a bunch of minions or one big boss.

I realize that GWM is about hitting harder, if less often, so that average DPR isn’t the whole story. I haven’t finished the math taking advantage into account yet either.

So I guess my follow on question is: Is GWM really better than the Str boost and, if so, why? My analysis leaves me unconvinced at this point but I realize it is incomplete.

[Citan]

So this is the crux of my question. I’ve done the math, and from an average DPR perspective, using the -5/+10 aspect of GWM with 18 Str outperforms a standard attack with 20 Str only for targets of AC 15 or less, and I feel like at level 6 most enemies will have a higher AC.

The other aspect of the feat, getting a bonus attack on a crit or a kill, is nice. Crits don’t come that often, and the other trigger depends on whether it’s a bunch of minions or one big boss.

I realize that GWM is about hitting harder, if less often, so that average DPR isn’t the whole story. I haven’t finished the math taking advantage into account yet either.

So I guess my follow on question is: Is GWM really better than the Str boost and, if so, why? My analysis leaves me unconvinced at this point but I realize it is incomplete.
Hi!

I agree with others that 18 STR is fine up until level 12, but I also completely understand you when you say you are not convinced that GWM is the right choice for now. And I'd say you are really right. So far you only have 2 guaranted attacks, and the -5 to hit is a heavy malus to overcome.

So let me suggest a third way: grab ANOTHER feat: there are many that would help you very much: Mobile (easier way to get to your enemies, no risk of OA), Sentinel (that enemy will regret entering your polearm reach), Polearm Mastery (guaranteed third attack with bonus action), Mage Slayer (casters will definitely hate you), Resilient Wisdom (you won't hate casters any more)...
Small chance you won't find any that suits you among all of them. :)

EDIT: And you can max STR and pick GWM later when you get enough proficiency bonus and number of attacks to really get the most of it (so at 12th level for example).

[Elric VIII]

So this is the crux of my question. I’ve done the math, and from an average DPR perspective, using the -5/+10 aspect of GWM with 18 Str outperforms a standard attack with 20 Str only for targets of AC 15 or less, and I feel like at level 6 most enemies will have a higher AC.

The other aspect of the feat, getting a bonus attack on a crit or a kill, is nice. Crits don’t come that often, and the other trigger depends on whether it’s a bunch of minions or one big boss.

I realize that GWM is about hitting harder, if less often, so that average DPR isn’t the whole story. I haven’t finished the math taking advantage into account yet either.

So I guess my follow on question is: Is GWM really better than the Str boost and, if so, why? My analysis leaves me unconvinced at this point but I realize it is incomplete.


You'd be surprised. Many high level monsters have AC in the 15-20 range and rely on bags of health for toughness. Because rolling damage is more fun than missing. Also don't forget to factor in that advantage bumps up the AC threshold by 2-3 points, so that good positioning and tactics are further rewarded.

Then there's the bonus action attack. You get free swings 5% of the time for a crit, then you can continue on your rampage if you land a killing blow. Since a +1 to hit is ~5% increased odds of hitting, I'd say it's worth it.

[strangebloke]

So this is the crux of my question. I’ve done the math, and from an average DPR perspective, using the -5/+10 aspect of GWM with 18 Str outperforms a standard attack with 20 Str only for targets of AC 15 or less, and I feel like at level 6 most enemies will have a higher AC.

The other aspect of the feat, getting a bonus attack on a crit or a kill, is nice. Crits don’t come that often, and the other trigger depends on whether it’s a bunch of minions or one big boss.

I realize that GWM is about hitting harder, if less often, so that average DPR isn’t the whole story. I haven’t finished the math taking advantage into account yet either.

So I guess my follow on question is: Is GWM really better than the Str boost and, if so, why? My analysis leaves me unconvinced at this point but I realize it is incomplete.

Firstly, the secondary effect of GWM is really quite good! It overcomes the main weakness of the fighting style: which is large groups of weak enemies. An extra attack off of a crit is actually a really sweet deal that is comparable to a +1 to hit in turns of DPR increase.

Secondly, I think you're drastically over-estimating monster AC, and underestimating your own ability to mitigate the -5. Most monsters have less than 16 AC, even high CR ones. Outside of dragons, almost nothing goes over 20. Moreover, do you have someone who can bless you? Cast faerie fire for you? Do you have magic weapons? Do you have precision attack? If so then that threshold past which GWM is worth jumps up very quickly.

Thirdly, enemies with low AC tend to have high HP to compensate, so GWM lets you be more efficient in how you deal with them.

[Tanarii]

So this is the crux of my question. I’ve done the math, and from an average DPR perspective, using the -5/+10 aspect of GWM with 18 Str outperforms a standard attack with 20 Str only for targets of AC 15 or less, and I feel like at level 6 most enemies will have a higher AC.
Either something is funky with your math, or you have some serious bonus sources of damage. Usually using GWM is superior against AC 17 or less.

Edit: oh never mind. You're comparing Str 18 using GWM to Str 20. I was talking about comparing Str 18 using GWM to Str 18 not using GWM. Those are different things, and the AC at which Str 18 w/ GWM should definitely be a point or two lower than the number I was talking about, so it fits.

[Cespenar]

Your DPS with a greatsword when taking Str 20 is 10.8.

Your DPS with a greatsword when taking a -5 to hit, +10 to damage is 12.6.

Get GWM. The only thing to consider afterwards is switching off GWM when the target is likely under ~10 hp.

[PeteNutButter]

There are few feats that are straight up better than an ASI, and GWM is one of them.

In addition to all of the benefits detailed above. Your DPR is pretty comparable, but remember you don't have to do it. It's an option, and when fighting things that are low AC high hp it is a massive boost in your DPR and can make a deadly encounter trivial.

[strangebloke]

There are few feats that are straight up better than an ASI, and GWM is one of them.

In addition to all of the benefits detailed above. Your DPR is pretty comparable, but remember you don't have to do it. It's an option, and when fighting things that are low AC high hp it is a massive boost in your DPR and can make a deadly encounter trivial.

According to Kryx, whose word I trust like Holy Writ, the part of GWM that grants you a bonus attack is as good as an ASI by itself.

I came to trust his DPR calcs a lot after I had an argue with him and I went through his math in detail. I was furiously doing math and then I realized that he really is 100% correct about his claims.

Infuriating!:smallwink:

[GlenSmash!]

If you were a Barbarian I'd say get GWM pronto. Reckless Attack makes that -5 pretty unimportant. As a fighter PAM might be better.

Either way PAM and GWM are typically worth more than a +2 to Strength.

[Gungor]

According to Kryx, whose word I trust like Holy Writ, the part of GWM that grants you a bonus attack is as good as an ASI by itself.

I came to trust his DPR calcs a lot after I had an argue with him and I went through his math in detail. I was furiously doing math and then I realized that he really is 100% correct about his claims.

Infuriating!:smallwink:

And that is something I haven’t had a chance to analyze myself yet, so thanks very much!

[Gungor]

Your DPS with a greatsword when taking Str 20 is 10.8.

Your DPS with a greatsword when taking a -5 to hit, +10 to damage is 12.6.

Get GWM. The only thing to consider afterwards is switching off GWM when the target is likely under ~10 hp.

Looks like these DPS figures are against AC 10. By AC 16, DPS is better with Str 20.

[Gungor]

There are few feats that are straight up better than an ASI, and GWM is one of them.

In addition to all of the benefits detailed above. Your DPR is pretty comparable, but remember you don't have to do it. It's an option, and when fighting things that are low AC high hp it is a massive boost in your DPR and can make a deadly encounter trivial.

I was concerned that if the option didn’t make sense often enough, then I’d be leaving a guaranteed +1 on the table for something that just sat in my pocket. But given the comments in the thread and some further calculations of my own, I do seee a lot of upside to GWM.

[sambojin]

Quite a lot of it also depends on just what sort of fighter you are. They can all shove for advantage while losing an attack to do so, but battlemasters can trip as an attack for it pretty regularly, which makes GWM all the better. Or use precision strike to help offset the -5 to-hit. Similarly, better crit range from champion tilts the math out for the second part of the feat, and the damage numbers from it. EKs have comparatively different options for damage, which doesn't make GWM worse, it just makes it "less better than everything else" because you've still got choices to make.

So if you're a BM or champion, I'd say go for GWM. You won't be behind any other character's power curve for taking a feat at 6th instead of an ASI, but you will be ahead of them in flexibility. If you think it's a low AC enemy, smack them hard. If it's high AC, smack them normally (or precisely, or on the ground, or critically).

If you're an EK, I guess it's up to you, but I'd still say go for it. It's one of those feats that are simply better in enough circumstances a day than anything else that you may as well grab it. Get 20Str at 8th, but have fun chopping stuff up really well for over half the adventure.