Can Elementals in Whirwind Form Take Damage?

[Flimsor]

I'm working on my first character/campaign and am looking at prestige classes. I have a wizard, and would like to take the elemental savant prestige. Eventually this class lets you take on the abilities of an elemental corresponding to the energy type you choose when you take the class. In doing research, I've discovered that whirlwind ability for elementals has a lot of gray area. My DM isn't sure how to rule this either, so I'm here. There are a few main questions I have (I may come back to post more later):

Can an elemental or elemental savant in whirlwind form take damage from physical weapons?

Can an elemental or elemental savant in whirlwind form take damage from spells?

Can an elemental or elemental savant be grappled in whirlwind form?

I'm namely concerned with the first two questions. Whirlwind would be a disappointing attack if the creature you pick up can attack you. Why would you choose to hold your opponent in a position where they can freely attack you every round? I'm aware there's a penalty attacking while in the whirlwind, but it still seems to almost defeat the purpose of whirlwind.

[Bronk]

Can an elemental or elemental savant in whirlwind form take damage from physical weapons?


Yes, the elemental is just in another shape, it doesn't gain extra DR or become incorporeal.



Can an elemental or elemental savant in whirlwind form take damage from spells?


They can be affected by spells, they're just in a different shape than before.



Can an elemental or elemental savant be grappled in whirlwind form?


They can still be grappled, since they still have a physical body. They can initiate a grapple too, since that isn't on the list of attacks that they lose. However, and this isn't covered explicitly in the write up of the whirlwind form, but the overall size of the elemental is much greater, so you'd have to figure out what your new size category is, so you could use a higher grapple modifier.

It does also say that anything that touches the whirlwind has a chance of getting sucked in. I'm not sure if that would be more advantageous or annoying, but it sounds like it would bypass the rules for escaping a grapple.



I'm namely concerned with the first two questions. Whirlwind would be a disappointing attack if the creature you pick up can attack you. Why would you choose to hold your opponent in a position where they can freely attack you every round? I'm aware there's a penalty attacking while in the whirlwind, but it still seems to almost defeat the purpose of whirlwind.

You'd probably want to only use the power on weak foes, or to try to stop a dangerous spell caster.

[frogglesmash]

They can still be grappled, since they still have a physical body. They can initiate a grapple too, since that isn't on the list of attacks that they lose. However, and this isn't covered explicitly in the write up of the whirlwind form, but the overall size of the elemental is much greater, so you'd have to figure out what your new size category is, so you could use a higher grapple modifier.

I'm pretty sure that by RAW, if the ability doesn't explicitly mention a change in size category, it maintains the same the same size category regardless of it's actual size.

[Flimsor]

Yes, the elemental is just in another shape, it doesn't gain extra DR or become incorporeal.



They can be affected by spells, they're just in a different shape than before.


Okay, thanks! I'm probably going to go with a different element since, as a wizard, I'm not going to have a ton of HP and could easily be taken out unless I pick up a weak foe like you mentioned.

[Falontani]

Okay, thanks! I'm probably going to go with a different element since, as a wizard, I'm not going to have a ton of HP and could easily be taken out unless I pick up a weak foe like you mentioned.
Might I suggest fire or water; and reasons why.
Fire will make you immune to some of the best AOE spells out there allowing you to cloak yourself in walls of flame and throw fireballs at your feet (or fire seeds) while also making anyone with natural attacks not want to touch you as much.
Water on the otherhand gives you some amazing abilities and very few weaknesses (unless your trying to cross a desert or a field of salt) but more importantly I want to point you to the transmutation spell: Extract Water Elemental

[Bronk]

I'm pretty sure that by RAW, if the ability doesn't explicitly mention a change in size category, it maintains the same the same size category regardless of it's actual size.

I don't remember seeing that as a rule anywhere. As far as I know, new form, new size. In this case, he'd be going from medium to huge (30 feet tall), for a +8 to grapple.

[Necroticplague]

I don't remember seeing that as a rule anywhere. As far as I know, new form, new size. In this case, he'd be going from medium to huge (30 feet tall), for a +8 to grapple.

Source? Unless something says it changes your size category, it doesn't.

Also, there are creatures that take up 10x10x10 cube, but are Fine creatures, so your assumption that size and space directly relate is false.

[Flimsor]

Might I suggest fire or water; and reasons why.
Fire will make you immune to some of the best AOE spells out there allowing you to cloak yourself in walls of flame and throw fireballs at your feet (or fire seeds) while also making anyone with natural attacks not want to touch you as much.


The class will turn my energy spells into my related energy, so I'd be able to throw the fireball equivalent at my feet anyways. I would be immune to enemy fireballs, so that would be neat.


Water on the otherhand gives you some amazing abilities and very few weaknesses (unless your trying to cross a desert or a field of salt) but more importantly I want to point you to the transmutation spell: Extract Water Elemental

Water is definitely very powerful, but only so in water. We haven't dealt with water much in our campaign, and it doesn't seem like we'll be in water very often. Additionally, enemies would still be able to attack me in vortex form.

I think I'm going with the earth elemental because the earth glide would let me hide from most enemies really well during combat, which is great being a low HP/AC wizard. Additionally, the list of creatures that are immune to acid damage is shorter than all of the other elements.

[Bronk]

Source? Unless something says it changes your size category, it doesn't.

So, no source then? In this case, the air elemental has changed form, it's body has been given new dimensions, and I think that having forgetting to give the new form a new size category is an oversight, and an unnecessary restriction, not a rule.



Also, there are creatures that take up 10x10x10 cube, but are Fine creatures, so your assumption that size and space directly relate is false.

This sounds neat... what are they? I've only seen this in relation to swarms.



I think I'm going with the earth elemental because the earth glide would let me hide from most enemies really well during combat, which is great being a low HP/AC wizard. Additionally, the list of creatures that are immune to acid damage is shorter than all of the other elements.

I think that'll work okay for you, although maybe not as well as having flight with perfect maneuverability.

For earth glide, you should be prepared to be often blocked by worked stone.

Also, find a way to see or sense things through the earth, because that's a known limitation (dysfunction?) of earth glide. Maybe get a ring of X-Ray vision, or something that grants tremorsense, or a favorable DM ruling to grant something like that to your elemental form because it would make sense for elementals to be able to see where they're going in their native environment in the Elemental Plane of Earth.

You might also want to get a ruling on how easy it is to bring objects with you when you earth glide... you should be able to at least bring your own items, but what about things that you grab? Larger objects? Finally, what about passengers?

That last one seems to come up a lot, so if you think you'll ever try to bypass something with earth glide and want to bring a friend along for the ride, or even a familiar, that'll be an issue. At least for the familiar, though, you could get around an unfavorable ruling using the 'familiar pocket' spell, or the 'elemental familiar' spell, which would actually be a great match for your character concept, now that I think about it.

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011109a

[Necroticplague]

So, no source then? In this case, the air elemental has changed form, it's body has been given new dimensions, and I think that having forgetting to give the new form a new size category is an oversight, and an unnecessary restriction, not a rule. No source on what? I'm not making any kind of positive claim. Unless something says it does something, it doesn't. Otherwise, you could just as easily claim 'it doesn't say humans don't have an insta-death touch attack, so they do'. The rules don't say what things don't do, they say what they do do.

Also, an elemental in tornado form isn't a standard space, so this argument doesn't make much sense. Normal creatures are cubic, while an Elemenal in whirlwind form is a conic. So do you define his size by the space at the base (indicating Medium), its maximum width (indicating Colossal), or it's maximum height (indicating size categories above Colossal that don't exist proper)?

This sounds neat... what are they? I've only seen this in relation to swarms.
Swarms were what I was thinking of.

[Falontani]

Swarms were what I was thinking of.
Swarms aren't a single creature, they are a large amount of creatures coalesced into one space. A 10x10 swarm could fill 4 squares horizontally instead of the usual 2 squares by 2 squares. So they count as their creatures' base size.
Air elementals are a bit trickier. If I were the dm I'd rule they can't grapple or be grappled, as they are made of air, and last I checked you can't hold air. Not in the traditional sense.

[King of Nowhere]

Can an elemental or elemental savant in whirlwind form take damage from physical weapons?

Can an elemental or elemental savant in whirlwind form take damage from spells?

Can an elemental or elemental savant be grappled in whirlwind form?


Don't you think the power to become completely invulnerable for prolonged amounts of time while dishing out damage to everyone around you would be a bit too much to hope for?

[Necroticplague]

Swarms aren't a single creature, they are a large amount of creatures coalesced into one space.

Incorrect. Taken from the Swarm description itself:

a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet

[Falontani]

Incorrect. Taken from the Swarm description itself:

I did word that incorrectly; they act as a single creature, composed of many. When they are "killed" they aren't killed but simply scattered and no longer act as a single creature

[Bronk]

No source on what? I'm not making any kind of positive claim. Unless something says it does something, it doesn't. Otherwise, you could just as easily claim 'it doesn't say humans don't have an insta-death touch attack, so they do'. The rules don't say what things don't do, they say what they do do.

Also, an elemental in tornado form isn't a standard space, so this argument doesn't make much sense. Normal creatures are cubic, while an Elemenal in whirlwind form is a conic. So do you define his size by the space at the base (indicating Medium), its maximum width (indicating Colossal), or it's maximum height (indicating size categories above Colossal that don't exist proper)?


I don't see this as the same thing as adding extra bits that aren't there, the size of the air elemental is listed right in the 'air elemental size table'.

You don't need the full dimensions of a creature to determine it's size, just its height or length, which is listed on that table. Then you just use the size category table here for the final result:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat

[frogglesmash]

I don't see this as the same thing as adding extra bits that aren't there, the size of the air elemental is listed right in the 'air elemental size table'.

You don't need the full dimensions of a creature to determine it's size, just its height or length, which is listed on that table. Then you just use the size category table here for the final result:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat

Those height, and weight values are just guidelines for when DMs create their own monsters, they do not dictate when a creature should go up or down a size category. If they did dictate size categories, purple worms would be colossal, not gargantuan, and ethereal creatures would be smaller than fine.

There's also the fact that any given elemental can change is whirlwind forms height to anywhere between 10 ft, and the max height listed, basically whenever it feels like. So either they can change their size categories on the fly, or they just go with the one that's actually listed in their stat block.

[Necroticplague]

I don't see this as the same thing as adding extra bits that aren't there,
But you are adding 'extra bits that aren't there'. The Whirlwind ability doesn't say it changes the elemental's size category. The fact that your addition is more minor than my intentional hyperbole in the same category doesn't make it no longer in the same category.


the size of the air elemental is listed right in the 'air elemental size table'. The one that identifies a 10-30 foot high elemental as 'medium' and not 'Colossal' as the Table of Creature Size and Scale table would indicate?


You don't need the full dimensions of a creature to determine it's size, just its height or length, which is listed on that table. Then you just use the size category table here for the final result:
You're right, you don't need the full dimensions (although we do have them). You just need what the statblock says. And the statblock still says Medium.