Anyspell, arcane or divine?

[gogogome]

I found this discussion in one of the other threads, and I was curious about it but the OP of that thread asked not to go off-topic so I'm making a new thread.

The arcane spell cast through anyspell, is it arcane or divine?


When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level

The arcane spell people are saying...
1. wizards are arcane casters, and since anyspell didn't explicitly say you cast the spell as a divine spell, you cast it as an arcane spell.
2. "it works just as though" means the spell's type is unchanged and you are emulating a wizard class to cast it.
3. Anyspell says "arcane spell" five times in its description.

The divine spell people are saying the opposite. They are saying...
1. all spells cleric cast are divine spells, and since anyspell doesn't explicitly say that this spell is being cast as an arcane spell, you cast it as a divine spell. "Arcane Spell" in the anyspell spell description is just a variable name. It doesn't mean you cast the spell as an arcane spell.
2. "it works just as though" just means you cast the spell successfully and it works normally as described. The wizard part doesn't mean anything and it especially doesn't mean you change the spell type to divine. The spell is saying ""the spell works as normal as if cast by their correct class, but because it's a divine spell, we use WIS instead of INT or CHA".
3. What about non-wizard-arcane-spells like from the bard list? If you take the wizard part of the spell description too literally, then the whole spell falls apart when you use anyspell to cast the arcane cure light wounds because wizards can't cast that spell.
4. You use WIS and a domain slot, all exclusively divine, so the resulting spell is divine.
5. Lack of mention of ASF.
6. There's an official ruling somewhere that says anyspell is ultimately divine? I couldn't find it.

So which is it? Sorry for the serious imbalance of arguments.

[RoboEmperor]

The problem with taking the wizard part too literally is that the spell gets destroyed when you start using non-wizard arcane spells, like bard spells.

"When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level"

becomes

"When you cast cure light wounds, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level"

cure light wounds cannot be cast by wizards.

WHAT HAPPENS HERE???

No, what the spell is saying is: "the spell works as normal as if cast by their correct class, but because it's a divine spell, we use WIS instead of INT or CHA".

[Darrin]

cure light wounds cannot be cast by wizards.


Then you're not wizarding hard enough. There are a huge variety of ways that a wizard can cast a non-wizard spell or get it added to his spell list as an arcane spell.

The fact that the spell description refers to the spell being cast as an "arcane spell" *FIVE TIMES* does not leave much room in my head for any other interpretation than it's an arcane spell... until I get to the part where the text says you need a high enough Wisdom to cast it, which kinda undermines my entire argument.

So, it's a bit of a cop-out, but... this may be a "DM's Call" kinda thing.

[EndocrineBandit]

I believe it's still divine. The channeling of divine energy manifests by simulating arcane effects. Shadow evocation, anyone? Still an illusion, acts like an evocation except as noted. Seems similar enough.

[heavyfuel]

The fact that the spell description refers to the spell being cast as an "arcane spell" *FIVE TIMES* does not leave much room in my head for any other interpretation than it's an arcane spell

Completely agree.

Also, as an Arcane spell, it suffers from ASF, so I hope you're not wearing armor when casting.

[Telonius]

Anyspell itself is a Divine spell. The effect of that divine spell is to be able to prepare and cast a single arcane spell as though you were a Wizard of your Cleric level.

In this particular case, I think the descriptive text matters: "Although there is no visible effect from this spellcasting, you channel divine power through your mind, shaping and transforming this energy into the potential to cast one arcane spell." What you're casting is "one arcane spell." The description also deals with the most serious ambiguity, the fact that the new spell occupies a domain slot. The power was divine to start with, but it's been transformed into arcane potential.

[Crake]

Anyspell itself is a Divine spell. The effect of that divine spell is to be able to prepare and cast a single arcane spell as though you were a Wizard of your Cleric level.

In this particular case, I think the descriptive text matters: "Although there is no visible effect from this spellcasting, you channel divine power through your mind, shaping and transforming this energy into the potential to cast one arcane spell." What you're casting is "one arcane spell." The description also deals with the most serious ambiguity, the fact that the new spell occupies a domain slot. The power was divine to start with, but it's been transformed into arcane potential.

Agree with Telonius here. Anyspell is divine, but it lets you prepare and cast an arcane spell.


I believe it's still divine. The channeling of divine energy manifests by simulating arcane effects. Shadow evocation, anyone? Still an illusion, acts like an evocation except as noted. Seems similar enough.

This is quite a different effect from things like shadow evocation, or even wish/miracle. With those spells, the effect of the spell itself is to duplicate another. The effect of anyspell doesn't duplicate another spell, it lets you prepare a spell. Which you can then cast at a later time. As if you had prepared it like a wizard.

[death390]

The problem with taking the wizard part too literally is that the spell gets destroyed when you start using non-wizard arcane spells, like bard spells.

"When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level"

becomes

"When you cast cure light wounds, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level"

cure light wounds cannot be cast by wizards.

WHAT HAPPENS HERE???

No, what the spell is saying is: "the spell works as normal as if cast by their correct class, but because it's a divine spell, we use WIS instead of INT or CHA".

ok a couple things, a wizard CAN cast cure light wounds it is an arcane spell from the bard list. thus all he needs is to get a scroll of it and add it to his spellbook, or research it himself.

[heavyfuel]

ok a couple things, a wizard CAN cast cure light wounds it is an arcane spell from the bard list. thus all he needs is to get a scroll of it and add it to his spellbook, or research it himself.

That's... not how any of this works.

A Wizard can only cast Wizard spells, not arcane spell from any class (barring explicit exceptions)

You can still cast Cure Light Wounds by jumping through some hoops (such as Arcane Disciple) but it's not as easy as getting a scroll

[Cosi]

until I get to the part where the text says you need a high enough Wisdom to cast it, which kinda undermines my entire argument.

Not really. There isn't any good reason that "it uses WIS to cast it" makes it a divine spell.

[heavyfuel]

Not really. There isn't any good reason that "it uses WIS to cast it" makes it a divine spell.

Yup. In fact, spells from the Arcane Disciple feat are explicitly arcane and require Wis to cast.

[Thurbane]

Not really. There isn't any good reason that "it uses WIS to cast it" makes it a divine spell.

Yup. In fact, spells from the Arcane Disciple feat are explicitly arcane and require Wis to cast.

Also, Dark Hunter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a):


Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a dark hunter gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells. To cast a spell, the dark hunter must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level, so a dark hunter with a Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Dark hunter bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the dark hunter's Wisdom modifier (if any). When the dark hunter receives 0 spells of a given level, such as 1st-level spells at 1st level, the dark hunter gets only bonus spells. A dark hunter without a bonus spell for a particular level cannot yet cast a spell of that level. The dark hunter's spell list appears below. A dark hunter prepares and casts spells just as a sorcerer does and the spells are arcane. He has a limited number of spells known.

[death390]

That's... not how any of this works.

A Wizard can only cast Wizard spells, not arcane spell from any class (barring explicit exceptions)

You can still cast Cure Light Wounds by jumping through some hoops (such as Arcane Disciple) but it's not as easy as getting a scroll

a wizard can recreate ANY spell in the game as an arcane spell via research. also:

PHB p178.
"Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higher level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether. Wizards friendly to one another often trade access to equal-level spells from each other’s spellbooks at no cost."

PHB wizard section.

"Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below). To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier."

as you can see it says the spells are drawn from the wizard spell list. but that is just for the level up spell choices. the actual preparation is dependent on what is in the spellbook. a wizard cast arcane spells listed in her spellbook, AND even if that is disputed recreation of an arcane spell can be done via spell research to make it a wizard spell. that is 2 different ways to get a non-standard arcane spell for a wizard. this is due to the specific trump general function of the rules.

[RoboEmperor]

a wizard can recreate ANY spell in the game as an arcane spell via research.

Spell research can fail. So you are completely at your DM's mercy if you rely on this.

In anycase I concede. In light of the WIS based arcane spells, I admit defeat.

Anyspell casts spells as arcane.

There is an official ruling out there that says it's divine but, I guess that's no better than the FAQ since it didn't make it to an errata.

[death390]

i wasn't saying ANYSPELL was arcane i'm saying that you can make ANY_SPELL arcane via spell research.

i personally think that ANYSPELL, is normally divine. it is not naturally on any arcane spellcasters spell list. due to the duplicity of spells on multiple spell lists the choice between divine and arcane is dependant based on which spell list it is taken from.

a great example is cure light wounds, it is primarily a divine spell. being a staple spell on almost all divine spellcasters lists. however bard also has it on his list. so if it is cast by a bard it is an arcane spell, but if cast by a divine caster it is divine. same with how many of the cleric domains contain primarily arcane spells (fire domain, cold, ect, ect) however when it is cast by the cleric it is a divine spell.

the trick is that the spell must be legitimately gained. for example a cleric can create ANY spell in the game (any spellcaster can use spell research, even fixed list casters) but it must be approved by a DM. if i was DMing i would allow most fire based spells if they are fire domain, but not cold (unless they also have the domain).

this is the way things work when it comes to scrolls, the creator determines if it is arcane or divine (or neither in case of artificer) based on their spellcasting style. a wizard cannot normally make a divine spell scroll, but if is helped by a cleric then the spell can be divine as if cast by the cleric. this does not mean that you can make a scroll of a divine spell that the cleric can't normally cast into a scroll; but you CAN make a scroll of a divine spell they can cast even though a wizard is arcane.

mind you there are many ways around these limitations, the feat alternate source spell feat, arcane disciple, ect.

[Kelb_Panthera]

a wizard can recreate ANY spell in the game as an arcane spell via research. also:

PHB p178.
"Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higher level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether. Wizards friendly to one another often trade access to equal-level spells from each other’s spellbooks at no cost."

PHB wizard section.

"Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below). To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier."

as you can see it says the spells are drawn from the wizard spell list. but that is just for the level up spell choices. the actual preparation is dependent on what is in the spellbook. a wizard cast arcane spells listed in her spellbook, AND even if that is disputed recreation of an arcane spell can be done via spell research to make it a wizard spell. that is 2 different ways to get a non-standard arcane spell for a wizard. this is due to the specific trump general function of the rules.

That's not how English works. Your first highlight is referring to the preceding sentence. It means that the rest of the sentence that follows applies whether the source is a scroll or spellbook. It does not say anything about what list the spell is sourced from. That's in the very first line of the wizard's "spells" class feature, "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." That's all there is to it. The parenthetical phrase in that sentence does not change the meaning of the sentence. That's what it is to be a parenthetical phrase rather than a clause in the sentence separated by commas.

Don't believe me, consult an English grammar text book like you would the PHB. :smallcool: