Archery damage optimization at level 20 - is multiclassing necessary?

[Sergeek]

[No UA, published material only]
Greetings, fellow material projectile slingers!
I recently wanted to optimize an archer damage build for high level campaign. Strolled around various forums, and everywhere I go, it seems people are bent on multiclassing to net more damage. But I do believe straight fighter is better. Even more to that - I think Eldritch Knight trumps Battlemaster in this regard. Even at the 20th lvl, Battlemaster has only six superiority d12s for an encounter, while Eldritch Knight can benefit from self-haste for 10 rounds. Not to mention greater utility from spells compared to manoeuvres.
I also tried to compare Eldritch Knight (20) with Battlemaster\Assassin (7\13). And in the course of 4 rounds, EK under haste deals more damage in total, even though he wastes his first action to cast haste (with familiar and high stealth you can probably ready-action haste also) and B\A has both the surprise and constant advantage.
Maybe I did the multiclassing wrong and entrylevels supposed to be different? I also never bothered with Ranger, since core version is rather weak on higher levels. Also, I didn't touch Bard, since I don't think you can optimize very well around charisma. What are you thoughts on this?
Any advice will be appreciated, because I'm probably missing something.

[MaxWilson]

Consider casting Magic Weapon IV instead of Haste. It has a better action economy, and it lets you exploit Sharpshooter more effectively. It also has a long enough duration to be pre-cast and last for multiple encounters, under some circumstances. Depending on what you're fighting it can be much better than Haste.

It's possible for a Rogue 9/Fighter 11 to do damage competitive with a Fighter 20, again depending on circumstances and what you're fighting, but Fighter 20 is definitely in the running.

[Sergeek]

Consider casting Magic Weapon IV instead of Haste. It has a better action economy, and it lets you exploit Sharpshooter more effectively. It also has a long enough duration to be pre-cast and last for multiple encounters, under some circumstances. Depending on what you're fighting it can be much better than Haste.

Good idea, thanks! Even though I will probably have magical weapon anyway.


It's possible for a Rogue 9/Fighter 11 to do damage competitive with a Fighter 20, again depending on circumstances and what you're fighting, but Fighter 20 is definitely in the running.

Hm, I'll try to crunch around those levels. I also prefer multiple smaller attacks to handful of strong ones, because of bounded accuracy. This is my primary concern, more than getting consistent advantage, actually.

[Blood of Gaea]

I would honestly just go Eldritch Knight 20. You might be able to finagle something slightly stronger with multiclassing, but you're either giving up the consistency if your extra attacks, or the utility of your spellcasting.

If you won't be using your bonus action, Crossbow Expert is worth considering. With Haste up, you go from 5 attacks of 1d10+5+10(102.5 average), you 6 attacks of 1d6+5(111 average). When Haste isn't up, a Longbow does 4 attacks of 1d10+5+10(82 average), and a light crossbow does 5 attacks of 1d6+5+10(92.5 average). The light crossbow would also benefit more from being a magic weapon or the magic weapon spell.

And of course, the light crossbow can be used in melee in a pinch.

[Sergeek]

but you're either giving up the consistency if your extra attacks, or the utility of your spellcasting

Yes! All those nova builds rely heavily on perfect circumstances, getting too narrow to my taste. While Eldritch Knight has some tricks for variety of encounters.


If you won't be using your bonus action, Crossbow Expert is worth considering

Oh, I probably should've told that I'm using hand crossbow already. Burning a feat for another attack seems like a no-brainer.

[MaxWilson]

Hm, I'll try to crunch around those levels. I also prefer multiple smaller attacks to handful of strong ones, because of bounded accuracy. This is my primary concern, more than getting consistent advantage, actually.

4 strong attacks tends to be less effective, DPR-wise, than 3 strong attacks with at least one at advantage (from Cunning Action + Skulker) plus bonus damage (sneak attack) as long as you get at least one hit. That's the strength of e.g. an EK/SCAG Swashbuckler multiclass: high consistent damage. (Note that SCAG Swashbucklers can get sneak attack damage on ranged attacks even without advantage--unlike Xanathar's Swashbucklers.)

On the other hand, a pure EK 20 gets more action surges, a teleport capability on any round when he action surges, and more- and higher-level spells.

Both can be fun and effective.

Also consider something like an EK 11/Necromancer 7/Rogue 2, so you can cast Greater Invisibility on yourself and get advantage on all of your Sharpshooter headshots while your super skeletons rain down arrows on everything hostile and you zip around shooting things and then vanishing (Cunning Action: Hide) at the end of every turn. Your personal DPR will be lower than a pure EK 20 or Fighter 11/Rogue 9, but your total DPR will likely be higher, and you'll be very hard to target without Truesight/Blindsight.

[Blood of Gaea]

Oh, I probably should've told that I'm using hand crossbow already. Burning a feat for another attack seems like a no-brainer.
Looks like you're set then. Just be sure to map out what buffs you'll want to use with what level slots.

Spells to look out for:

1st Level: Absorb Elements, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Find Familiar.
2nd Level:Hold Person, Mirror Image.
3rd Level: Fireball, Haste, Fly.
4th Level: Storm Sphere, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility.

Disregard Fireball and Storm Sphere if you either have AoE caster on your team and/or don't have a high Int score.


Also, if you're not sure on your race yet, I'd highly recommend High Elf or Human Variant with the Magic Initiate feat.

[Specter]

If you're actually playing this at level 20, don't cast Haste, cast Greater Invisibility, and use Sharpshooter on all your attacks. I don't think it gets any better than that if you're single-classed.

Or, cast Haste on yourself and ask a Wizard/Bard/Sorc to cast Greater Invisibility on you. Sw-eet.

[nickl_2000]

Looks like you're set then. Just be sure to map out what buffs you'll want to use with what level slots.

Spells to look out for:

1st Level: Absorb Elements, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Find Familiar.
2nd Level:Hold Person, Mirror Image.
3rd Level: Fireball, Haste, Fly.
4th Level: Storm Sphere, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility.

Disregard Fireball and Storm Sphere if you either have AoE caster on your team and/or don't have a high Int score.


Also, if you're not sure on your race yet, I'd highly recommend High Elf or Human Variant with the Magic Initiate feat.

Can EKs get the Misty Step spell? That could be a huge boon for an archer

[Specter]

Can EKs get the Misty Step spell? That could be a huge boon for an archer

You can, but not alongside with Hold Person - you have to choose one free-school spell by spell level only.

[Blood of Gaea]

Can EKs get the Misty Step spell? That could be a huge boon for an archer
In addition to having to pick it over other spells, you also get a free teleport whenever you choose to use your short rest action surges, which is overall better than using your precious few long rest spell slots.

That said, if you like the spell and want to use it, go ahead, don't let optimization stop you.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Nothing wrong with EK 20 and you definitely needn’t multiclass.

But... if you just want to throw out a lot of crossbow attacks I think 15 Samurai / 5 Gloomstalker might be better.


Haven’t run the numbers but you for sure get more attacks.

[Blood of Gaea]

Nothing wrong with EK 20 and you definitely needn’t multiclass.

But... if you just want to throw out a lot of crossbow attacks I think 15 Samurai / 5 Gloomstalker might be better.


Haven’t run the numbers but you for sure get more attacks.
Samurai 15 lets you sort of match 20 Fighter's 4 attack action, but you need to have at advantage and give up an attack to do so. Gloom Stalker lets you make an extra attack in the first round of combat.

Meanwhile, Eldritch Knight has one use of Greater Invisibility, and three uses of Haste per day, on top of their other spell casting, of which you get much more than 5 levels of Ranger gets you.

So basically, you're giving up the majority of your spellcasting ability to almost match a hasted EK during your opening round of combat, if you have advantage.

[Sergeek]

don't cast Haste, cast Greater Invisibility

If I understand correctly - Invisibility is required for constant advantage on attack rolls, right?


I don't think it gets any better than that if you're single-classed

I actually was inspired by your guide! And what about multiclassing? Just finished math on Battlemaster (11) \ Assassin (9) - this build bested raw Eldritch Knight only by 0,5 damage (my calculations are very crude though, simply damage slapped together). What are other options? Dips into proper casters?

[Blood of Gaea]

If I understand correctly - Invisibility is required for constant advantage on attack rolls, right?



I actually was inspired by your guide! And what about multiclassing? Just finished math on Battlemaster (11) \ Assassin (9) - this build bested raw Eldritch Knight only by 0,5 damage (my calculations are very crude though, simply damage slapped together). What are other options? Dips into proper casters?
Greater Invisibility is the better buff unless something else is giving you advantage.

One of my favorite gish builds is 12EK/8 Wizard. My preferred Wizard subclasses for this are War or Abjuration. Bladesinger is generally better for an 18EK/2Wizard melee build.

[Specter]

If I understand correctly - Invisibility is required for constant advantage on attack rolls, right?

I actually was inspired by your guide! And what about multiclassing? Just finished math on Battlemaster (11) \ Assassin (9) - this build bested raw Eldritch Knight only by 0,5 damage (my calculations are very crude though, simply damage slapped together). What are other options? Dips into proper casters?

Hey, thanks.

I wouldn't bother with multiclassing; with Greater Invisibility and Shield/Absorb Elements, you can murder most things and still last more on the battlefield than your comrades. If you want to keep solid DPR at level 20, you need something else that will give you Greater Invisibility. Sorcerer 8 gives you Quickened Spell, which speaks for itself.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Samurai 15 lets you sort of match 20 Fighter's 4 attack action, but you need to have at advantage and give up an attack to do so. Gloom Stalker lets you make an extra attack in the first round of combat.

Meanwhile, Eldritch Knight has one use of Greater Invisibility, and three uses of Haste per day, on top of their other spell casting, of which you get much more than 5 levels of Ranger gets you.

So basically, you're giving up the majority of your spellcasting ability to almost match a hasted EK during your opening round of combat, if you have advantage.

-advantage is easy to get
-gloom stalker gives better initiative
-going first and action surging gives 2 extra attacks for the ambush +1d6 extra damage on both
-ranger spells are great for archery, Hunters mark, Ensnaring strike, cordon of arrows, hail of thorns, Zephyr strike,
-you also get utility and stealth spells which are great for an archer who wants to stay hidden.
- you get another fighting style, which adds to your versatility in combat, or just straight up defense

-Revised Ranger makes this even better, though i didn't include it with my initial thought.



To me its an even trade, but Ranger and Samurai give alot of different things that work together that cover a wider breath than an EK 20.

EK is more consistent i will agree, but not by much. Especially if revised ranger is included.

[MaxWilson]

You can, but not alongside with Hold Person - you have to choose one free-school spell by spell level only.

You can actually re-assign your non-evoc/abj picks to spells of a different level, so you can have any four non-evoc/abj spells you want, of any level you can cast except that you can only have maximum of two 4th level, by 20th level.


In addition to having to pick it over other spells, you also get a free teleport whenever you choose to use your short rest action surges, which is overall better than using your precious few long rest spell slots.

At the risk of stating the obvious, let me also add here that any and all of the following sequences are legal:

1.) Teleport, then Attack (action surge), then Attack (regular action)
2.) Attack (regular action), Teleport, Attack (action surge)
3.) Attack (regular action), Attack (action surge), Teleport

#1 in particular can be useful for getting you out of melee with a bad guy and then pumping it full of arrows/crossbow bolts.


If I understand correctly - Invisibility is required for constant advantage on attack rolls, right?

Not necessarily. You could also be e.g. in a dark place, shooting at a creature from outside its Darkvision range, while one of your allies keeps the enemy illuminated using Dancing Lights (a.k.a. NARC Beacon cantrip) or Light cast on an arrow or possibly even just a regular torch held by a Dodging PC or an invisible flying sprite familiar or an Unseen Servant or whatever.

Or you could have an ally who likes to toss Nets[1] to restrain enemies, or cast Entangling Arrow, or buff you with Foresight, or whatever. Advantage on ranged attacks is not trivial to generate but it isn't impossible either.

[1] Or have her summoned apes or reanimated skeletons do the net-tossing for her.

[Blood of Gaea]

The thing that makes Greater Invisibility awesome is threefold. Advantage on attacks, incoming attacks have disadvantage, and many single target spells require you to see the target. And it also makes for easy surprise attacks.

[Easy_Lee]

Half-elf hexblade blade-pact warlock at max level can cast foresight on himself for advantage on everything. That leaves him free to use eldritch smite on four attacks per short rest assuming he doesn't feel like doing anything else with his four fifth-level slots.

If he takes Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter, the combination of EA with Foresight yields about a 27% crit chance per attack. When he crits, if he chooses to eldritch smite, the attack will deal 12d8 (66) extra force damage.

This character can also cast Fly, Greater Invisibility, and several teleportation spells, all from a much earlier level. Spell casting makes him more versatile than the fighter. Hexblade makes him SAD so he can afford feats.

At max level with Hexblade's Curse up, normal attacks from a pact longbow deal 1d8+10(SS)+5(CHA)+5(Lifedrinker)+6(Curse)=30.5, or 62 on two attacks. On a smite crit, he blasts the target for 89 damage with one attack, if my math is right.

I don't think the fighter's damage will beat this build in practice at max level.

[MaxWilson]

Half-elf hexblade blade-pact warlock at max level can cast foresight on himself for advantage on everything. That leaves him free to use eldritch smite on four attacks per short rest assuming he doesn't feel like doing anything else with his four fifth-level slots.

If he takes Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter, the combination of EA with Foresight yields about a 27% crit chance per attack. When he crits, if he chooses to eldritch smite, the attack will deal 12d8 (66) extra force damage.

This character can also cast Fly, Greater Invisibility, and several teleportation spells, all from a much earlier level. Spell casting makes him more versatile than the fighter. Hexblade makes him SAD so he can afford feats.

At max level with Hexblade's Curse up, normal attacks from a pact longbow deal 1d8+10(SS)+5(CHA)+5(Lifedrinker)+6(Curse)=30.5, or 62 on two attacks. On a smite crit, he blasts the target for 89 damage with one attack, if my math is right.

I don't think the fighter's damage will beat this build in practice at max level.

Apples to oranges. You're comparing nova damage with a limited resource (smites, curse) to max DPR. The Fighter equivalent would be looking at the EK's peak damage when action surging.

Given that the Hexblade has only 1/4 as many longbow attacks as the fighter has Sharpshooter shots when action surging, I'd be rather surprised if the EK couldn't compete in the same ballpark.

However, a Foresighted blast-lock using Elven Accuracy and Hex will probably (I guesstimate) come out ahead of the fighter on sustained DPR, since blastlocks are already pretty good even before Foresight + Elven Accuracy.

[Paeleus]

War Cleric 9/Battle Master Fighter 11 maybe?

3 Attacks, 5d10 Superiority die, Action Surge, Fighting Style, and a spare ASI to nab Sharp Shooter - all from Fighter.

War Cleric gives you all Cleric spells, an optional bonus action weapon attack (WIS mod number of times), Guided Strike, and Divine Strike. Divine Favor sounds like Light Arrows from the Legend of Zelda, so sign me right the heck up, though that is probably suboptimal in most situations.

[Easy_Lee]

Apples to oranges. You're comparing nova damage with a limited resource (smites, curse) to max DPR. The Fighter equivalent would be looking at the EK's peak damage when action surging.

Given that the Hexblade has only 1/4 as many longbow attacks as the fighter has Sharpshooter shots when action surging, I'd be rather surprised if the EK couldn't compete in the same ballpark.

However, a Foresighted blast-lock using Elven Accuracy and Hex will probably (I guesstimate) come out ahead of the fighter on sustained DPR, since blastlocks are already pretty good even before Foresight + Elven Accuracy.

You have that backwards. A Hexblade using a bow or great weapon, sharpshooter or great weapon master, and Eldritch Smite will easily out damage a blast lock.

On a crit smite round, and crits will land on about half of all rounds, you're looking for at a little over 120 damage average. That's two attacks and one spell slot used. The warlock can do this four times per short rest, which is more often than the fighter can action surge.

Assuming the fighter has advantage (for Sharpshooter) and uses action surge, he can deal 9(d6+15) damage, 166.5 damage. But the fighter can only do this twice per short rest. His average is half as much. And he can't cast greater invisibility on himself very many times per day.

Meanwhile, foresight on the warlock lasts eighteen hours and is better than greater invisibility.

[bid]

Apples to oranges. You're comparing nova damage with a limited resource (smites, curse) to max DPR. The Fighter equivalent would be looking at the EK's peak damage when action surging.
Greater invisibility, 1 minute, once per day.

[Sergeek]

I don't think the fighter's damage will beat this build in practice at max level.

I tried to calculate Hexblade damage with my crude methods, but gave every possible advantage (24 hours Hex, every first strike in round is critical) and this is what I've got:


Bonus Action
Hexblade's Curse
Regular Action
9(Weapon)+54(Smite)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Lifedrinker )+6(Curse)+5(Ability)=89
4.5(Weapon)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Lifedrinker)+6(Curs e)+5(Ability)=30.5

Round One Total: 119,5

Bonus Action
Hex
Regular action
9(Weapon)+7(Hex)+54(Smite)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Life drinker)+6(Curse)+5(Ability)=96
4.5(Weapon)+3.5(Hex)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Lifedrinke r)+6(Curse)+5(Ability)=35

Round One Total: 131

Regular Action
9(Weapon)+7(Hex)+54(Smite)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Life drinker)+6(Curse)+5(Ability)=96
4.5(Weapon)+3.5(Hex)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Lifedrinke r)+6(Curse)+5(Ability)=35
Bonus Action
+5(Maddening)

Round One Total: 136

Regular Action
9(Weapon)+7(Hex)+54(Smite)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Life drinker)+6(Curse)+5(Ability)=96
4.5(Weapon)+3.5(Hex)+10(Sharpshooter)+5(Lifedrinke r)+6(Curse)+5(Ability)=35
Bonus Action
+5(Maddening)

Round One Total: 136

TOTAL DAMAGE DEALT: 522.5



It is marginally better than 518 damage from hasted Eldritch Knight. I do realise that Hexblade will hit more often due to consisting advantage (but due to mobility offered by surgeport of Eldritch Knight, I do believe he can get the advantage even without Invisibility (I also plan on pumping Stealth)) but, again, this calculation assumes that Hexblade will have 50% of attacks turning into crits. And you also need to convince your DM to let you keep both 24 hours Hex and 8 hours Foresight through short rest phases. I also assume that Hexblade unloads all of this damage into a single target, so he doesn't need to switch Hex between targets and can net +10 damage from Maddening Hex. This is minor, but highly unrealistic also.

Maybe I'm missing some other source of damage? Because to me Eldritch Knight still seems like a better choice for damage due to his consistency.

[Citan]

[No UA, published material only]
Greetings, fellow material projectile slingers!
I recently wanted to optimize an archer damage build for high level campaign. Strolled around various forums, and everywhere I go, it seems people are bent on multiclassing to net more damage. But I do believe straight fighter is better. Even more to that - I think Eldritch Knight trumps Battlemaster in this regard. Even at the 20th lvl, Battlemaster has only six superiority d12s for an encounter, while Eldritch Knight can benefit from self-haste for 10 rounds. Not to mention greater utility from spells compared to manoeuvres.
I also tried to compare Eldritch Knight (20) with Battlemaster\Assassin (7\13). And in the course of 4 rounds, EK under haste deals more damage in total, even though he wastes his first action to cast haste (with familiar and high stealth you can probably ready-action haste also) and B\A has both the surprise and constant advantage.
Maybe I did the multiclassing wrong and entrylevels supposed to be different? I also never bothered with Ranger, since core version is rather weak on higher levels. Also, I didn't touch Bard, since I don't think you can optimize very well around charisma. What are you thoughts on this?
Any advice will be appreciated, because I'm probably missing something.
Honestly, I'd say it depends on many things...

For a pure Fighter...

Consider casting Magic Weapon IV instead of Haste. It has a better action economy, and it lets you exploit Sharpshooter more effectively. It also has a long enough duration to be pre-cast and last for multiple encounters, under some circumstances. Depending on what you're fighting it can be much better than Haste.

It's possible for a Rogue 9/Fighter 11 to do damage competitive with a Fighter 20, again depending on circumstances and what you're fighting, but Fighter 20 is definitely in the running.
What he said: Eldricht Knight + either Haste/Magic Weapon/Greater Invisibility or even Hold Person paired with Action Surge are great.
As far as consistent damage over a day goes whatever happens in terms of short rest, pure Fighter probably holds the crown.

If you REALLY want to optimize damage in some way though?
If you wanted the best burst as early as possible, Valor Bard is the way to go for Swift Quiver. You could pair it with a single level of Hexblade Warlock for the special Hex and/or up to three levels of Devotion Paladin.

Since you are speaking about directly high level, you can ditch the idea of Swift Quiver though and directly base everything off Eldricht Knight 11 for 3rd attack.
Everything else still stands though.

For the biggest competitive burst damage, I'll put my bet on Eldricht Knight 11 / Devotion Paladin 3 / Hexblade Warlock 1...
Finish Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 if you want to extend/quicken buffs and get Haste, or go straight Hexblade 5 to get Elemental Weapon and give last level as an ASI (Fighter/Paladin). Or disregard those spells to get instead Swashbuckler Rogue for extra Initiative and Cunning Action.
Use a hand crossbow if you wish to benefit from "use CHA instead of STR/DEX" benefit from Hexblade.
That way you can spare one more feat.

It will take you a full turn completely buffing you:
Action Surge (up)cast Magic Weapon/Elemental Weapon/Haste, action Sacred Weapon (IN THAT ORDER), bonus action Hexblade if you can...
Or Quickened Magic Weapon, action Sacred Weapon, action Attack otherwise so you can directly unleash some nasty damage. :)

With 20 CHA and hand crossbow, you get 2 (Archery) + 5 (Hexblade) + 2 (upcast Magic Weapon/Elemental Weapon) + 5 (Sacred Weapon) so a whooping +14 to hit.
The -5 penalty from Sharpshooter won't be a big deal most of the time with that big a boost.
Especially against big bosses, thanks to the Hexblade's curse increasing crit range and dealing additional damage.
3*(1d8+5+10+6+2) obviously deals more damage than 4*(1d10+5+10+3) and you get much more utility at the same time thanks to the heavily expanded multiclass
(6 spells from Paladin, 4 cantrips and up to 7 spells from Sorcerer or Warlock). And you can do this mostly every short rest, which should not be that big a deal beetween Rope Trick (learned at level 8 from EK) and possibly Leomund's Tiny Hut if you went Tome Warlock 5.

Have fun ;)

[MaxWilson]

You have that backwards. A Hexblade using a bow or great weapon, sharpshooter or great weapon master, and Eldritch Smite will easily out damage a blast lock.

You realize you're not disagreeing with me? At no point did I ever say that a blastlock had better nova damage than a smiting Hexblade.

[Easy_Lee]

It is marginally better than 518 damage from hasted Eldritch Knight. I do realise that Hexblade will hit more often due to consisting advantage (but due to mobility offered by surgeport of Eldritch Knight, I do believe he can get the advantage even without Invisibility (I also plan on pumping Stealth)) but, again, this calculation assumes that Hexblade will have 50% of attacks turning into crits. And you also need to convince your DM to let you keep both 24 hours Hex and 8 hours Foresight through short rest phases. I also assume that Hexblade unloads all of this damage into a single target, so he doesn't need to switch Hex between targets and can net +10 damage from Maddening Hex. This is minor, but highly unrealistic also.

Maybe I'm missing some other source of damage? Because to me Eldritch Knight still seems like a better choice for damage due to his consistency.

I chose my words carefully when I said, "in practice." A few factors:

The EK cannot cast his spells as often.
The EK must spend an action to setup Greater Invisibility, whereas Foresight is up for eight hours.
The Hexblade probably wouldn't use Hex but there's no need to convince your DM of anything if you choose to do so. Concentration doesn't break during a rest by RAW.
The Hexblade also has additional spells and a 6th, 7th, and 8th level arcanum slot by this point. The potential benefit of these things is impossible to calculate but is absolutely significant.

Most noteworthy: the eldritch knight can only cast Greater Invisibility once per day. Assuming this is his go-to source of advantage, he gives himself advantage for one-minute per day compared to the Hexblade's 8-hour minimum, so long as he isn't dispelled. That's 480 times as much advantage - more, actually, since Foresight gives advantage on skill checks and saves in addition to attacks.

If you're playing in tier 4, the fighter sadly does not compete with a properly built Hexblade for damage.