Aegis vs synthesist summoner? How do they compare?

[SangoProduction]

I've went over both Synthesis summoner and Aegis, because they broadly do the same thing: create an empowering second skin around you that basically acts like armor.

But, simply due to the scope of both of their customizations, and the fact that I still haven't got done the project I got a one day extension for, I am having a really hard time comparing them. Has anyone played with or at least know of both well enough to tell me which one is good at what?

[icefractal]

Synthesist has more raw power (due to stat replacement, more untyped boosts, and better casting), but Aegis is more versatile and (IMO) a better design. Also, if you use the other DSP material (PoW, Akashic), the Aegis has customizations to access it, and becomes extremely versatile and more powerful.

However, at high levels, the Synthesist can switch over to casting-focused, with spells like Greater Planar Binding, Dominate Monster, Create Demiplane, Greater Teleport, Simulacrum, and other things the Aegis can't match. So at that point it's obviously the stronger option.

Personally speaking, I'd rather play an Aegis, except in the case that I wanted to transform into a significantly non-humanoid form, which I think the Synthesist is better at.

[Starbuck_II]

Synthesist has more raw power (due to stat replacement, more untyped boosts, and better casting), but Aegis is more versatile and (IMO) a better design. Also, if you use the other DSP material (PoW, Akashic), the Aegis has customizations to access it, and becomes extremely versatile and more powerful.

However, at high levels, the Synthesist can switch over to casting-focused, with spells like Greater Planar Binding, Dominate Monster, Create Demiplane, Greater Teleport, Simulacrum, and other things the Aegis can't match. So at that point it's obviously the stronger option.

Personally speaking, I'd rather play an Aegis, except in the case that I wanted to transform into a significantly non-humanoid form, which I think the Synthesist is better at.

Wait which Synthesist" Chain or Unchained Synthesist?

[SangoProduction]

Wait which Synthesist" Chain or Unchained Synthesist?

Either I guess.

[icefractal]

Wait which Synthesist" Chain or Unchained Synthesist?Normal Synthesist. Unchained sticks you with some pretty questionable choices for evolutions, and loses a lot on the spell list, so I'd definitely go Aegis in that case.

[SangoProduction]

Normal Synthesist. Unchained sticks you with some pretty questionable choices for evolutions, and loses a lot on the spell list, so I'd definitely go Aegis in that case.

ah, ok, thanks.

[BearonVonMu]

I would like to add that your stat generation method matters for the choice: synthesis summoner fixes your physical stats to a set starting point. It also allows you to have many more hit points and a 3/4 BAB instead of Aegis's 1/1. The Humanoid form has 16/12/12 for your physical stats I think? Your CON might be 14. If you can roll better than that, consider Aegis more strongly.

[stack]

A synthesist still wants decent CON. If you dump it, you can be in trouble when low on HP and the eidolon gets dismissed.

[Andor13]

The sythesist is probably more powerful in terms of raw power, because summoning, but note that the sythesist only gets to shift his evolution points when he levels.

However the Aegis is probably the most flexible class in the game, and he can shift his points on the fly. He can get all the senses, all the movement modes, and any defense he happens to need. He can generate very high UMD checks, grow up to two sizes, sprout extra arms in case you feel the need to fight with 4 large shields and make your DM cry. If you have path of war he has the most flexible access to maneuvers in the game, and decent access to akashic veils as well. He can alpha strike for very high damage with his ranged attack powers, although he'll burn through his PP like crazy.

Note that he kind of peaks around the mid-teens though. He can't get maneuvers higher than 6th. His Powerstone chain caps at 4th level powers (although he can get his manifester level pretty high.)

For raw power, especially at high levels I'd give the nod to the sythesist. For day to day, and even round by round versatility and utility I'd give the nod to the Aegis.

[upho]

I would like to add that your stat generation method matters for the choice: synthesis summoner fixes your physical stats to a set starting point. It also allows you to have many more hit points and a 3/4 BAB instead of Aegis's 1/1. The Humanoid form has 16/12/12 for your physical stats I think? Your CON might be 14. If you can roll better than that, consider Aegis more strongly.All eidolon base forms start with Con 13. Biped starts with Str 16 and Dex 12, and is typically the best for melee control builds. Quadruped starts with both Str and Dex at 14, and is the best for supercharger builds ('cause pounce).


The sythesist is probably more powerful in terms of raw power, because summoning,While I agree about the synth having more raw power, I don't think that's because of summoning. The synth is actually rather poorly equipped to use summoning effectively, making it more of an emergency button in a rare case of "suit failure". Simply put, I believe the synth's raw power primarily comes from outrageous dump-stat possibilities and some outright silly evos and related rules. As a rather modest example of how ludicrous this can get, a 15th level human reach/damage synth could easily have the following typical base numbers, assuming 20-point buy, a few standard self-cast buffs and some suitable gear (not full WBL):

Colossal size, 65' reach; Str 50, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 26
Power Attack +3 fortuitous butchering axe +26/+26/+21/+16 (24d6+45, average 129); as AoO (Vital Strike) +26 (72d6+45, average 297)
Greater Trip, 4 AoOs/round, CMB +46 (trip +52)

An "average" CR 20 monster, like a balor, is bound to get one-shot, often before it can even close for melee. (Note also that the above includes no evos besides Huge, so plenty of EPs still left to spend.)

Add/replace one or two levels with say warlord, zealot, wilder, bloodrager and/or the formless master PrC and this can get a lot more silly. And this is still very far from the most optimized damage dealing synth possible. For example, a supercharger, a more dedicated BFC build or especially a "gundolon" can be way more stupid. This is largely true also for an un-summoner version. The aegis won't come anywhere near this level of silliness AFAIK.

It's also worth keeping in mind the vanilla summoner is still more powerful in most typical games, having less stupid numbers but far superior action economy. Not to mention a master summoner...


but note that the sythesist only gets to shift his evolution points when he levels.That's not really true, as the synth has access to both transmogrify (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transmogrify) and the evolution surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/evolution-surge/) line of spells. But yes, the aegis' suit has better on-the-fly flexibility.


However the Aegis is probably the most flexible class in the game, and he can shift his points on the fly. He can get all the senses, all the movement modes, and any defense he happens to need. He can generate very high UMD checks, grow up to two sizes, sprout extra arms in case you feel the need to fight with 4 large shields and make your DM cry. If you have path of war he has the most flexible access to maneuvers in the game, and decent access to akashic veils as well. He can alpha strike for very high damage with his ranged attack powers, although he'll burn through his PP like crazy.

Note that he kind of peaks around the mid-teens though. He can't get maneuvers higher than 6th. His Powerstone chain caps at 4th level powers (although he can get his manifester level pretty high.)

For raw power, especially at high levels I'd give the nod to the sythesist. For day to day, and even round by round versatility and utility I'd give the nod to the Aegis.Thing is, in practice an aegis' combat flexibility tends to be pretty limited by other build options like feats and items, just like synths. And in terms of overall versatility, the aegis is still not on the same level as a summoner (because spells and summoning), and thankfully very far from a psion, wizard or any other full caster.

Personally, I vastly prefer the aegis, as it has less rules issues and - most importantly - is great fun without being prone to cause balance problems.

[Andor13]

Personally, I vastly prefer the aegis, as it has less rules issues and - most importantly - is great fun without being prone to cause balance problems.

Agreed. I wish it wasn't so hard to find GMs who allow 3rd party stuff. The one time I got to play an Aegis he was great, great fun. What I love about the design of the Aegis is that he will never beat a specialized character in his area of competency, but he can be second best at almost anything (Except healing, and even then Radiant Dawn goes a long way towards making him a potential 2nd/3rd string healer if your GM allows playtest materials), and he can do that either on the fly or with a days notice.

If someone was running a gestalt campaign I'd find it hard to think of a class who wouldn't consider Aegis as a top 3 choice for the second slot.

[Yogibear41]

I once thought up an Aegis Shadow Elan using the Aberrant variant to gain the tentacles to make a pseudo Venom-ish character from Spider man, never played the character, but it looked pretty cool on paper, 4 tentacle secondary attacks following unarmed strikes, fast healing, concealment in shadows, damage reduction via Elan racial power, to go with base damage reduction from the Aegis.

[khadgar567]

FYI aegis also gains sphere content so its kinda bit more powerful than you might think.

[Rhedyn]

I would rather play an Aegis. (One of the best as in fun martial classes in the game)

Synthesist summoner is undoubtedly stronger. It's a problematic class that I would personally avoid at any table where you are trying to have fun without busting the system. If you do go with this option, I strongly recommend suboptimal builds and crazy multiclassing just to weaken yourself to decent.

[Kaouse]

FYI aegis also gains sphere content so its kinda bit more powerful than you might think.

Has this happened yet? You are talking about material in the soon-to-be released City of Seven Seraphs, correct?

[khadgar567]

Has this happened yet? You are talking about material in the soon-to-be released City of Seven Seraphs, correct?
yes as backer i am waiting my copy to arrive as i have no info about aegis newest toys as it may be archetype or couple of modifications but my gut feeling and money on modifications as it gives more power to aegis and gives much needed spell casting flexibility.

[upho]

FYI aegis also gains sphere content so its kinda bit more powerful than you might think.Eh... No?

IMO, it seems reasonable to assume a thread comparing a Paizo class to a DSP class does not - and should not - take content from other publishers into account. Why do you assume otherwise?

And FYI, if we do take material from other publishers into account, the power difference between the classes will simply grow. Which isn't strange, since you'll find a lot more 3PP summoner options than non-DSP aegis' options out there, and IIRC plenty of them can be more powerful than anything written for the aegis by DDS or LSP.

[Kaouse]

I will also note that the new Aegis archetype written in Psionics Occult, the Host of Heroes, is a rather substantial boost to the class's power...if you're willing to push the envelope (and even if you aren't, it's still a pretty big boost to the class's baseline). This archetype turns the Aegis into a psuedo Medium, complete with a limited spellcasting ability. Though the spellcasting is incredibly limited even with investment, it does come with a rather distinct caveat in that the spells you choose are cast as spell like abilities. This means that, at level 18 at the earliest, you can choose to be an Archmage who can cast Animate Dead as a spell like ability, therefore without the expensive material component.

Note that the Hierophant would theoretically get access to Animate Dead at level 12, but the Hierophant's "Faith" ability specifically imposes a number of restrictions on the spells that can be selected, including a restriction that spells with costly material components cannot be selected. The Archmage's "Magecraft" ability has no such restriction (nor any of the Hierophant's other restrictions, such as alignment spells being unable to oppose you or your deity's alignment). It's probably just an oversight, but as written, a Level 18 Archmage Aegis makes a pretty great necromancer. Plus, they can put that crafting skill to work by making Necrocrafts.

I'd also like to point out, because somebody mentioned Vital Strike shenanigans with Summoners, that the Aegis gets access to Akashic Veils, and with them, anybody can use Vital Strike shenanigans. This is namely done through the veil, Armory of the Conqueror. This veil increases your weapon's size based on how much essence is placed into it. +1 size increase at 1 essence, +2 @ 3, +3 @ 5, +4 @ 7. Thus, if you can invest 7 points of essence into this veil (possible at level 18 with Greater Akashic Catalysts), any weapon you wield automatically goes from Medium size into Colossal size. Of course, this doesn't take into account the other ways an Aegis can boost their weapon damage dice, like Powerful Build, or actually increasing their size. It can get pretty nutty. Though they will definitely be lacking in outright stats compared to a Synthesist.

...at least until they get access to Spheres of Power, where they can then give themselves a Permanent Fusion with a Conjuration Companion. But even then I doubt that they can match a Synthesist Summoner's stat pool.

[upho]

I will also note that the new Aegis archetype written in Psionics Occult, the Host of Heroes, is a rather substantial boost to the class's power...if you're willing to push the envelope (and even if you aren't, it's still a pretty big boost to the class's baseline). This archetype turns the Aegis into a psuedo Medium, complete with a limited spellcasting ability. Though the spellcasting is incredibly limited even with investment, it does come with a rather distinct caveat in that the spells you choose are cast as spell like abilities. This means that, at level 18 at the earliest, you can choose to be an Archmage who can cast Animate Dead as a spell like ability, therefore without the expensive material component.

Note that the Hierophant would theoretically get access to Animate Dead at level 12, but the Hierophant's "Faith" ability specifically imposes a number of restrictions on the spells that can be selected, including a restriction that spells with costly material components cannot be selected. The Archmage's "Magecraft" ability has no such restriction (nor any of the Hierophant's other restrictions, such as alignment spells being unable to oppose you or your deity's alignment). It's probably just an oversight, but as written, a Level 18 Archmage Aegis makes a pretty great necromancer. Plus, they can put that crafting skill to work by making Necrocrafts.That's a nice high level trick. I like it!

Of course, it's thankfully not even remotely close to the minionmancy an 18th level synth is capable of. I mean, it's still a summoner, so we're still talking about using summon monster IX - and frickin' gate at 19th level - as a standard action SLA with a minimum 18 minutes duration, more than 12 times per day. And that's on top of having a spell list including for example the SM line and greater planar binding (as a 6th level spell!), as well as the maximized Cha to use calling spells effectively and reliably. So yeah, just like a high level wizard or cleric, a 19th level synth could effectively adventure with for example two CR 29+ solars, completely controlled by the synth (no save)... :smalleek:


I'd also like to point out, because somebody mentioned Vital Strike shenanigans with Summoners, that the Aegis gets access to Akashic Veils, and with them, anybody can use Vital Strike shenanigans. This is namely done through the veil, Armory of the Conqueror. This veil increases your weapon's size based on how much essence is placed into it. +1 size increase at 1 essence, +2 @ 3, +3 @ 5, +4 @ 7. Thus, if you can invest 7 points of essence into this veil (possible at level 18 with Greater Akashic Catalysts), any weapon you wield automatically goes from Medium size into Colossal size. Of course, this doesn't take into account the other ways an Aegis can boost their weapon damage dice, like Powerful Build, or actually increasing their size. It can get pretty nutty. Though they will definitely be lacking in outright stats compared to a Synthesist.And what makes you think the synth isn't capable of using the same veil?

AFAIK, it's impossible to get a larger damage die than that of a synth build. This is because no PC option other than the Huge evo gives you a Huge base size. Meaning this (Ex) evo does not count as an actual magic or virtual size increase (but instead comes with far greater stat bonuses than any other option in the entire game). An aegis can however not have a base size larger than that of its race, which can at most be Large (gamla or tiger catfolk, or an aasimar/skinwalker/tiefling with such a heritage). Keep in mind the synth can reliably use for example a dorje of metamorphosis (11,250 gp) with UMD for two size increases starting at 10th level or earlier, and can also match every other damage die size increase an aegis can get (such as powerful build through Mighty Frame), at the same level as the aegis.


...at least until they get access to Spheres of Power, where they can then give themselves a Permanent Fusion with a Conjuration Companion. But even then I doubt that they can match a Synthesist Summoner's stat pool.That's indeed powerful AFAICT, but yeah, still thankfully far from the synth.