TO Wizard vs. TO Psion

[Pippin]

Who's the mightiest character ever? We need two gentlemen and 1 DM to sort it out publicly.


Both builds are ECL 20.
Early entry shenanigans shall be allowed if they're not too far-fetched.
The wizard build may not be based on classes that cast spells spontaneously, or manifest powers.
The psion build may not be based on classes that cast spells at all.
Wizard: Uncanny Forethought is ruled to modify casting times. On the other hand, Arcane Disciple can't ever make Miracle become a "sorcerer or wizard evocation spell".
Psion: Epic Spells are considered 10th-level spells for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, Linked Power can't ever make you bypass XP costs.


Good night.

[Cosi]

The Wizard casting planar binding, summons an Efreet, casts dominate monster on it, and forces it to give him a wish. He uses this wish to ask for a magic ring that gives him every ability a magical item can legally give him (which is all abilities, or something that rounds off to it). The only cost for doing this is an amount of XP that is stupidly massive, but the Efreet's SLA wish does not require it to pay that cost.

The Psion loops fusion and astral seed to merge with and permanently gain the abilities of every monster she encounters or can summon, create, or otherwise bring to her. She now has every ability of every creature (which, again, rounds off to "every ability").

The answer to your question is that this a stupid question and every TO character has however much power they happen to ask for, so the only thing questions like this tell you is which of the two classes you ask about the answerer knows more about.

[Pippin]

The Wizard casting planar binding, summons an Efreet, casts dominate monster on it, and forces it to give him a wish. He uses this wish to ask for a magic ring that gives him every ability a magical item can legally give him (which is all abilities, or something that rounds off to it). The only cost for doing this is an amount of XP that is stupidly massive, but the Efreet's SLA wish does not require it to pay that cost.

The Psion loops fusion and astral seed to merge with and permanently gain the abilities of every monster she encounters or can summon, create, or otherwise bring to her. She now has every ability of every creature (which, again, rounds off to "every ability").

The answer to your question is that this a stupid question and every TO character has however much power they happen to ask for, so the only thing questions like this tell you is which of the two classes you ask about the answerer knows more about.
What you say sounds right. Fortunately, I did not ask any questions. Besides maybe: who wants to play the wizard? who wants to play the psion?

My first sentence was more like an opening statement :smallsmile:

[Tvtyrant]

They both time travel backwards to kill each other before they are born, paradoxically becoming each others parents.

[icefractal]

If you want to have a meaningful distinction between them, you'll have to put some limits on. Because at the full extent of TO, all classes (even Commoner) end up with the same result - a character who has all abilities they might possibly want, and an arbitrarily large number of arbitrarily powerful minions (which also have an arbitrary number of contingencies, so good luck even getting to the "roll initiative" step if you tried to run a fight between them).

[NecroDancer]

And this battle is all before the cleric comes into the mix.....

[One Step Two]

They both time travel backwards to kill each other before they are born, paradoxically becoming each others parents.

This is the truest answer of all, because in a battle between the mightiest forces in the multiverse. The real winner, is love.

[Pippin]

If you want to have a meaningful distinction between them, you'll have to put some limits on. Because at the full extent of TO, all classes (even Commoner) end up with the same result - a character who has all abilities they might possibly want, and an arbitrarily large number of arbitrarily powerful minions (which also have an arbitrary number of contingencies, so good luck even getting to the "roll initiative" step if you tried to run a fight between them).
I agree with you, my mindset was that crazy, unreasonable combos were not to be allowed, but of course 'unreasonable' is subjective. Like, you can't get infinite feats with Heroism & Chaos Shuffle. Pun-Pun obviously is forbidden. Having that in mind, with these settings, I was under the impression that it was not possible to get infinite spell slots, and infinite PP. Although the Psion has tricks to recover PP, they can't be used during combat unless I'm mistaken. And the wizard must rest to recover spell slots, unless I'm mistaken.

Although both characters will be absurdly powerful, it was my idea that the TO Wizard can't ever manifest powers on their own, but can cast whatever arcane spell without cost as a standard action if they wish to. And it was my idea that the TO Psion can manifest any and all spells as powers on their own, but can't ever manifest powers without XP cost if they have one. So to me the ultimate balance was this, and I was curious to see how this would play out.

I was also willing to forbid Leadership, but the Psion would be allowed the Thrallherd PrC. So while the Wizard can cast a costless Ice Assassin as a standard action, the Psion can hire the right Dweomerkeeper that will do just as much. Of course that Dweomerkeeper, and any other minion, won't be with him during combat. That is, unless people would argue that the Wizard would have too much advantage still. But I don't think so.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wizard gets all of the best options for feats and PrCs, and it's possible for him to get all of the spells (arcane and divine) in existence, as well as access to almost every racial ability for every creature at or below 25 HD (though not all at the same time), through shapechange. And with a flowing time demiplane at his disposal, he can easily plane shift to it, regain his spells, and then come back with a full complement of spells. Unfortunately, it's almost a sure bet that the wizard can't cast all of his spells known spontaneously.

Whereas the psion has a few great PrCs, some nice feats, and every single psionic power, arcane spell, and divine spell via a convert-spell-to-power erudite cohort with psychic chirurgery, as well as every racial ability for every creature in the game, without a HD limit, all at the same time, through fusion + astral seed. And recharge shenanigans allow him to refill his pp at will. Plus he has the demiplane shenanigans as well. The psion CAN manifest all of his spells and powers spontaneously, unlike the wizard.

Pretty sure it's a tie, with the psion maybe slightly ahead, but not enough to really make it terribly clear-cut. Arcane PrCs and feats have some insane power to them to make up most of the difference.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Psion has Persistent Power (+8 cost), Metapower (-2 cost), Overchannel (+3 manifester level), and Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm). He can spend up to 23 power points on a single power, and Persistent Metapower Timeless Body costs 23 power points. He's absolutely immune to everything that can possibly be done in the game, with the exception of the Annulus which no 20th level character could reliably possess.

Thus the Psion's chances of succeeding are greater than zero, and the Wizard's chances of succeeding are no greater than zero, so the only possible outcome is that the Psion will win.

[Pippin]

Wizard gets all of the best options for feats and PrCs, and it's possible for him to get all of the spells (arcane and divine) in existence, as well as access to almost every racial ability for every creature at or below 25 HD (though not all at the same time), through shapechange.

Whereas the psion has a few great PrCs, some nice feats, and every single psionic power, arcane spell, and divine spell via a convert-spell-to-power erudite cohort with psychic chirurgery, as well as every racial ability for every creature in the game, without a HD limit, all at the same time, through fusion + astral seed.

Pretty sure it's a tie, with the psion maybe slightly ahead, but not enough to really make it terribly clear-cut.
1. I'm not sure how you manage to put all divine spells in the Wizard's spellbook. Could you elaborate please?

2. I'm not sure this is reasonable, see. If you permanently become a Fey with Fusion + Astral Seed, fine. But then if you permanently become a Dragon, you drop everything specific to the Fey you used to be.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psion has Persistent Power (+8 cost), Metapower (-2 cost), Overchannel (+3 manifester level), and Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm). He can spend up to 23 power points on a single power, and Persistent Metapower Timeless Body costs 23 power points. He's absolutely immune to everything that can possibly be done in the game, with the exception of the Annulus which no 20th level character could reliably possess.

Thus the Psion's chances of succeeding are greater than zero, and the Wizard's chances of succeeding are no greater than zero, so the only possible outcome is that the Psion will win.Wizards have options like astral projection and the veils of the Io7V, though. The psion can be dispelled, while dispelling is only a speedbump (if that) for an Io7V, or one using astral projection.


1. I'm not sure how you manage to put all divine spells in the Wizard's spellbook. Could you elaborate please?There are plenty of ways, from wyrm wizard to Extra Spell, to nab divine spells in a wizard's spellbook. The latter especially can be DCFS'd out multiple times to add said spells to your spellbook. It's not like the ink will spontaneously wink out of the timeline if you swap the feat out, after all.


2. I'm not sure this is reasonable, see. If you permanently become a Fey with Fusion + Astral Seed, fine. But then if you permanently become a Dragon, you drop everything specific to the Fey you used to be.Metamorphosis into a dragon, fusion, dismiss the metamorphosis. Now you have both the fey and dragon types, as you're a fey/dragon fusion. Use astral seed at your leisure.

There really aren't any rules to the contrary, and I'm not sure how else to adjudicate it without houserules.

[flappeercraft]

So are you proposing two people to make character builds to fight on an ECL 20 and TO? If so sign me up for the wizard. Also, there is one problem. Ground rules. At the full extent of TO a Level 20 Wizard and 1st level Commoner are perfectly equal. I would reccomend these rules if we are to do a combat.


1. No Infinite Loops (Loops that take a number arbitrarily high but not infinitely high are allowed)
2. Sources allowed are all 1st party books, all web enhancements, Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine
3. Deities are out of this
4. Average HP, not rolled.
5. PB 32
6. No Time Travel
7. ECL 20
8. No DCFS/Psychic Reformation on feats coming from special locations, magic items, or similar
9. No Summoning/Calling creatures to add to Hiveminds
10. No Time Travel
11. No Sarrukh loops
12. 1 year prep time

Variants Suggested:
Taint
LA buyoff
Fiendish Possession
Channeling
Flaws
Traits
Psionics-Magic Transparency
Faustian Pacts
Elder Evil Worshipping

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wizards have options like astral projection and the veils of the Io7V, though. The psion can be dispelled, while dispelling is only a speedbump (if that) for an Io7V, or one using astral projection.

Timeless Body also makes him immune to dispelling, disjunction, and anything else the Wizard could possibly use against him.

Astral Projection has built-in methods for defeating it.

If the Wizard's chances of winning are zero or less, and the Psion's chances of winning are greater than zero, then statistically the Psion will always win.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Timeless Body also makes him immune to dispelling, disjunction, and anything else the Wizard could possibly use against him.

Astral Projection has built-in methods for defeating it.

If the Wizard's chances of winning are zero or less, and the Psion's chances of winning are greater than zero, then statistically the Psion will always win.But is the timeless body effect immune to dispelling? Is it basically a wall surrounding the psion that can be knocked down, or is the wall able to protect itself, like a forcefield generator that surrounds itself in its own forcefield when it's turned on?

[edit] How about an AMF? Planar bubble set to the Spire in the Outlands? There are ways around timeless body, too.

[Drascin]

Yeah, there's no way the Wizard doesn't win this. Psion is good, but it's just nowhere near Wizard good, at pretty much any level of optimization, much less theorethical one where you can exploit all the obscure PrCs and poorly-thought-out spells.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, there's no way the Wizard doesn't win this. Psion is good, but it's just nowhere near Wizard good, at pretty much any level of optimization, much less theorethical one where you can exploit all the obscure PrCs and poorly-thought-out spells.Psions get all the spells. They get all the psionic powers, too. And they do get some really nice PrCs (like, for instance, thrallherd). I'm not going to even pretend like the psionic PrCs can hold a candle to the best arcane ones, but there are some REALLY good psionic powers out there, which, yes, are not quite as good as the best spells (though they're damned close), but psions can get all the best spells, too. And they can cast them all spontaneously. And they can regenerate their pp and have the best action economy boosters in the game natively, along with all the arcane and most of the divine ones (barring Divine Metamagic, of course).

As I said, it's really, REALLY close, though I think the super-op psion has the edge, if barely.

[Domar]

Psion has Persistent Power (+8 cost), Metapower (-2 cost), Overchannel (+3 manifester level), and Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm). He can spend up to 23 power points on a single power, and Persistent Metapower Timeless Body costs 23 power points. He's absolutely immune to everything that can possibly be done in the game, with the exception of the Annulus which no 20th level character could reliably possess.

Thus the Psion's chances of succeeding are greater than zero, and the Wizard's chances of succeeding are no greater than zero, so the only possible outcome is that the Psion will win.

The Annulus is in the wizards spell component pouch.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Annulus is in the wizards spell component pouch.Good luck managing to pin the psion down long enough use it, though.

Also, spell pouches are 5 gp apiece. I always buy them for my characters, even when they're not casters. Having constant access to greater artifacts is quite handy. Even in games where the GM won't allow stuff like that, it's still worth it for the look on his face when I point out that it's RAW.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

But is the timeless body effect immune to dispelling? Is it basically a wall surrounding the psion that can be knocked down, or is the wall able to protect itself, like a forcefield generator that surrounds itself in its own forcefield when it's turned on?

[edit] How about an AMF? Planar bubble set to the Spire in the Outlands? There are ways around timeless body, too.

Timeless Body is Range: Personal, it does not create an effect that can be targeted, so Dispel Magic cannot be targeted against the power itself. Thus Dispel Magic can only be attempted against it by targeting the caster (who's immune to everything), or by attempting an area dispel (which would attempt to affect the caster, who's immune to everything).

Timeless Body makes him (and his powers, an extension of him) immune to antimagic, dead magic, wild magic, and anything else the wizard could possibly attempt to use against him.

Again, the Wizard has absolutely zero chance of defeating the Psion.

[Pippin]

Again, the Wizard has absolutely zero chance of defeating the Psion.
If a dozen iron cubes of 1 cubic meter each suddenly fall down on the Psion, does that not kill him right away? Doesn't Timeless Body cancel any and all buffs he may have?

[Uncle Pine]

In a TO battle, assuming both characters are played with the same competence, the Psion would win due to having more options. Sure, there are ways for a Wizard to know all spells, both divine and arcane (and since this is TO, access to all powers via magic items), but a Psion would know all spells, both divine and arcane, AND all powers via a spell-to-power Erudite (as well as access to all of them via magic items in the same way the Wizard does, because this is TO). In short, in a TO environment both characters have access to everything, but the Psion has it more reasily available. Which means he'd win.

EDIT: The above of course works assuming that both characters are played with the same competence, which is a scenario that never comes to fruition. TO challenges where two builds of the same power level crash against each others aren't won because one of the two parts is stronger than the other, but simply because the human behind one of the two characters failed to foresee the consequences of one effect or the other.

[Pippin]

In a TO battle, assuming both characters are played with the same competence, the Psion would win due to having more options. Sure, there are ways for a Wizard to know all spells, both divine and arcane (and since this is TO, access to all powers via magic items), but a Psion would know all spells, both divine and arcane, AND all powers via a spell-to-power Erudite (as well as access to all of them via magic items in the same way the Wizard does, because this is TO). In short, in a TO environment both characters have access to everything, but the Psion has it more reasily available. Which means he'd win.
Psions have no easy way to disregard XP costs though. Wizards can.

[Uncle Pine]

Psions have no easy way to disregard XP costs though. Wizards can.

What method are you using to disregard XP costs that isn't available to Psions when you can turn psionic powers into supernatural abilities via magic mantle + Supernatural Transformation (Savage Species)?

[Pippin]

What method are you using to disregard XP costs that isn't available to Psions when you can turn psionic powers into supernatural abilities via magic mantle + Supernatural Transformation (Savage Species)?
This nonsense is way too absurd to be allowed in a TO game, that's really not reasonable. It's like wishing for a ring of infinite wishes and expecting to get it because it's not a nonmagical item.

[Jack_Simth]

I agree with you, my mindset was that crazy, unreasonable combos were not to be allowed, but of course 'unreasonable' is subjective. Like, you can't get infinite feats with Heroism & Chaos Shuffle. Pun-Pun obviously is forbidden. Having that in mind, with these settings, I was under the impression that it was not possible to get infinite spell slots, and infinite PP. Although the Psion has tricks to recover PP, they can't be used during combat unless I'm mistaken. And the wizard must rest to recover spell slots, unless I'm mistaken.You're mistaken.

For the Wizard, Festering Anger + Cancer Mage-1 + Kissed by the Ages + a fast time plane = Uncapped strength; add in Illumian(Aeshkrau) to key bonus spell slots off of Strength, and you get an arbitrarily large number of spell slots (and the ability to throw the entire plane at the Psion, but meh)
For the Psion, Erudite + Fusion + Astral Seed + Metamind-10 minion + Temporal Reiteration = Doesn't expend Power Points for anything, and keeps it up all day.

At high levels of TO, everyone has everything. A Wizard can have a pet Psion, and a Psion can have a pet Wizard, both fairly readily.

What's really fun is when one uses Ice Assasin to make a copy of an Aleax of a Psion(Telepath), and then orders the Aleax to use a Powerstone of True Mind Switch with the wizard. Wizard now has Singular Enemy, and can only be harmed by that exact one Psion (which may not actually exist, if Eschew Materials is in play). There's ways to get Singular Enemy twice (for different enemies) to close even that hole. Straight-up Ex immunity to everything, using Instant effects. Both Wizard and Psion can do this by various routes. Without something like Manipulate Form to make up various forms of "I win" abilities, this really is a draw in TO.

[Anthrowhale]

The suggested rules/limits seem to allow the Clockwork Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time) which allows an instantaneous infinite spell/action loop.

Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) only has an effect according to "Your body ignores..." and "You are invulnerable...". There is no evidence that it ignores spells like AMF, Dispel Magic, Disjunction, etc...

[Sleven]

There's a lot being thrown around in this thread that is just plain incorrect.

The thread is pointless.

Both wizards and psions are capable of infinite spell slot/power point loops that function in the midst of infinite action loops without resorting to items or utilizing any of the abilities of the other class.

Both wizards and psions are capable of achieving all possible spells and powers (and the spell slots and power points necessary to use them) without resorting to items.

Regardless of how you want to rule Timeless Body for the purpose of such a bout, both the TO wizard and psion will be capable of persisting it, so its existence gives neither party an edge over the other.

However, in terms of default (non-TO) abilities, the wizard has a distinct edge over the psion by virtue of the diversity of spells and the superiority of metamagic. The only problem is, even in their default incarnations, the edges of each respective party aren't large enough to make a real difference. Whoever goes first wins.

[Uncle Pine]

Whoever goes first wins.

This would be true if contingencies didn't exist. However, given that they're real and you can in fact get them from several different sources and nest them using carefully worded triggers, we fall back to the previous problem of having two infinites of the same magnitude grinding against each other until one of the players controlling a part in the conflict commits a human mistake.

[Quertus]

1. No Infinite Loops (Loops that take a number arbitrarily high but not infinitely high are allowed)
2. Sources allowed are all 1st party books, all web enhancements, Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine
3. Deities are out of this
4. Average HP, not rolled.
5. PB 32
6. No Time Travel
7. ECL 20
8. No DCFS/Psychic Reformation on feats coming from special locations, magic items, or similar
9. No Summoning/Calling creatures to add to Hiveminds
10. No Time Travel
11. No Sarrukh loops
12. 1 year prep time

Variants Suggested:
Taint
LA buyoff
Fiendish Possession
Channeling
Flaws
Traits
Psionics-Magic Transparency
Faustian Pacts
Elder Evil Worshipping


I love that you have "no time travel" twice.

I'm a bit confused by the inclusion of "arbitrary, but not infinite", though. Personally, I'm fine with "arbitrary, but limited", usually the limiting factor being WBL.


This nonsense is way too absurd to be allowed in a TO game, that's really not reasonable. It's like wishing for a ring of infinite wishes and expecting to get it because it's not a nonmagical item.

Now there's a set of words I'd never have thought to see together... too absurd for TO indeed.


Timeless Body also makes him immune to dispelling, disjunction, and anything else the Wizard could possibly use against him.

Citation needed. See also, can Detect Magic detect Mind Blank?

EDIT: also, Timeless Body calls out "effects", "attacks", and "powers". By a strict RAW interpretation, what are the definitions of these terms? What shenanigans - other than being unable to buff one's self, restore one's Contingency, restore one's Mind Blank, etc - does this imply?


Sure, there are ways for a Wizard to know all spells, both divine and arcane (and since this is TO, access to all powers via magic items), but a Psion would know all spells, both divine and arcane, AND all powers via a spell-to-power Erudite (as well as access to all of them via magic items in the same way the Wizard does, because this is TO).


Both wizards and psions are capable of infinite spell slot/power point loops that function in the midst of infinite action loops without resorting to items or utilizing any of the abilities of the other class.

Both wizards and psions are capable of achieving all possible spells and powers (and the spell slots and power points necessary to use them) without resorting to items.

I thought that this was against the rules...

EDIT:
it was my idea that the TO Wizard can't ever manifest powers on their own, but can cast whatever arcane spell without cost as a standard action if they wish to. And it was my idea that the TO Psion can manifest any and all spells as powers on their own, but can't ever manifest powers without XP cost if they have one.

Ah, not against the explicit rules. :smallannoyed:

Also, why can the Psion manifest spells, but the wizard can't manifest powers? :smallconfused:


Whoever goes first wins.

Actually, under one set of conditions and interpretations, whoever can defeat the other when their Timeless bodies wear off, wins. My money is on Wizard on this one (Nerve Skitter Kauper's Skittish Nerves, Tainted Sorcerer, and Extend for double-length Persist, as a few sample advantages). Of course, this particular showdown sounds like it goes against the rules.

[Zombimode]

Even in games where the GM won't allow stuff like that, it's still worth it for the look on his face when I point out that it's RAW.

What´s the logic here? Something like artifact apears as a material component -> artifacts have no listed Price -> any material component that has no listed Price is assumed to be in the component pouch?

[RoboEmperor]

Wizard:Ice Assassin.
Psion:No Ice Assassin.

The End.

Clarification: Ice Assassin of Psion = Psion. So Psion + Wizard > Psion.

[Pippin]

1. No Infinite Loops (Loops that take a number arbitrarily high but not infinitely high are allowed)
2. Sources allowed are all 1st party books, all web enhancements, Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine
3. Deities are out of this
4. Average HP, not rolled.
5. PB 32
6. No Time Travel
7. ECL 20
8. No DCFS/Psychic Reformation on feats coming from special locations, magic items, or similar
9. No Summoning/Calling creatures to add to Hiveminds
10. No Time Travel
11. No Sarrukh loops
12. 1 year prep time

Variants Suggested:
Taint
LA buyoff
Fiendish Possession
Channeling
Flaws
Traits
Psionics-Magic Transparency
Faustian Pacts
Elder Evil Worshipping

Well I would be against loops that could go arbitrarily high. Because the contest would bowl down to whoever said the bigger number wins. On the other hand, I'm OK with Chaos Shuffle.


Ah, not against the explicit rules. :smallannoyed:

Also, why can the Psion manifest spells, but the wizard can't manifest powers? :smallconfused:
I wasn't making a rule here, I was only noticing the reality of the two classes. I'm not aware of any way for Wizards to manifest high-level powers, let alone all powers. Psions can, thanks to Erudites.


Ice Assassin of Psion = Psion naked, no buffs.
Fixed that for you. The contest might not be over as early as you would have it.

[RoboEmperor]

How about Gate? Wizard can bring in Epic Outsiders like the Abominations.
How about Ice Assassin of the Demon Princes or Archdevils? They're not epic. They're CR20.
How about Celerity + Time Stop for infinite actions? Foresight stops surprise rounds so the wizard will always get his celerity off.
How about spamming craft contingency? IIRC psionics can't make craft contingent items right? (Not sure)
How about Shapechange? Even without using it for infinite free wishes. Magic-Psionic Transparency. Iron Golem to turn completely immune to all psionic effects.

100% of the books out there strengthen the wizard, while like... 1% of the books out there strengthen the psion. It really is a no contest. Wizard can also persist his spells via some choice race selection and dips or magic items.

[flappeercraft]

How about we bar off the usage of manifesting in any way for the wizard and spellcasting for the psion. It's a psion not an erudite, let alone StP Erudite. This would be including leadership and having a cohort of the opposite class or gating one in.

Edit: I'm thinking also bar off Ice Assassin of the Psion because that would just mean it would be Wizard + Psion vs Psion.

[Pippin]

How about we bar off the usage of manifesting in any way for the wizard and spellcasting for the psion. It's a psion not an erudite, let alone StP Erudite. This would be including leadership and having a cohort of the opposite class or gating one in.
That doesn't sound right, it would mainly impact the Psion.

[flappeercraft]

That doesn't sound right, it would mainly impact the Psion.

Well if both can use the toys of the other, then what's the point of this vs battle? They are the exacty same thing.

[Pippin]

Well if both can use the toys of the other, then what's the point of this vs battle? They are the exacty same thing.
That's the point, they don't. Only the Psion can play with all the Wizard's toys. But the Wizard has many advantages the Psion doesn't.

[RoboEmperor]

Can the psion kill the wizard? yes.
Can the wizard kill the psion? yes.

Both can kill each other. However, the wizard is stronger so it is more likely he will win.

That's the answer I'm gonna give.

[flappeercraft]

That's the point, they don't. Only the Psion can play with all the Wizard's toys. But the Wizard has many advantages the Psion doesn't.

Actually the wizard can perfectly use powers. Shadowcraft mage for shadow miracle and use that Miracle to replicate any power of 7th level or lower.

Alternatively take Arcane Disciple, Arcane Thesis Miracle, Hide Life, and a Belt of the Dread Emperor. Now cast your Silent Stilled Miracle and replicate Schism. Use the belt on yourself and recover the slot, your schism lets you use Miracle as a mental action each round and you now can also cast any power of 7th level or lower as a standard action, every round. Then again the wizard can use this Miracle to cast also almost any spell.


The only way I know that a Psion can get wizard spells is via Psychic Chirurgery from an StP Erudite, which would require a Telepath to give it to the Erudite and every manifesting of the power would cost the Erudite Xp and the psion has to pay for the GP and XP loss. This would basically limit you to WBL or the XP an Erudite Cohort has.

[Crichton]

What´s the logic here? Something like artifact apears as a material component -> artifacts have no listed Price -> any material component that has no listed Price is assumed to be in the component pouch?

Yeah, I think I must be missing something here too...


Spell Component Pouch: This small, watertight leather belt pouch has many compartments. A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch

What part of that says that artifacts, major or otherwise, or any other item that's not a listed spell component, would be in a pouch? It doesn't say it has everything without a listed cost in the pouch, just the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting. Artifacts are not needed for spellcasting, so even under a crazy, it's-not-specifically-excluded-so-it-counts-as-RAW reading of it, there's nothing in the pouch but standard spellcasting components, a list of which can be drawn from the compiled descriptions of every spell in the book, minus the components that have a listed cost somewhere.

Or am I missing a spell description somewhere that says "Material component: Annulus"??

[Kelb_Panthera]

At peak optimization, there really is no difference between the two. You need -much- stricter rules for this thought exercise.

As you move up from the bottom at bare competence toward absolute maximum capacity; you're going to start at "wizard wins," eventually hit "psion wins," and finally land on "draw." Tweak the rules for your thought experiment until you land in the region you want.

[flappeercraft]

Or am I missing a spell description somewhere that says "Material component: Annulus"??

Apocalypse from the Sky from BoVD. The Material Component is *any* artifact

[Crichton]

Apocalypse from the Sky from BoVD. The Material Component is *any* artifact

Well there ya have it. Just one more example of RAW that is unquestionably not RAI. I stand corrected.

[Calthropstu]

They both time travel backwards to kill each other before they are born, paradoxically becoming each others parents.

I must admit, I chuckled at this. Sounds like a family guy episode.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Apocalypse from the Sky from BoVD. The Material Component is *any* artifact

The BoVD FAQ says that's supposed to be a focus, FWIW.

[flappeercraft]

"a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch"

Still qualifies

[Quertus]

Actually the wizard can perfectly use powers. Shadowcraft mage for shadow miracle and use that Miracle to replicate any power of 7th level or lower.

Alternatively take Arcane Disciple, Arcane Thesis Miracle, Hide Life, and a Belt of the Dread Emperor. Now cast your Silent Stilled Miracle and replicate Schism. Use the belt on yourself and recover the slot, your schism lets you use Miracle as a mental action each round and you now can also cast any power of 7th level or lower as a standard action, every round. Then again the wizard can use this Miracle to cast also almost any spell.


The only way I know that a Psion can get wizard spells is via Psychic Chirurgery from an StP Erudite, which would require a Telepath to give it to the Erudite and every manifesting of the power would cost the Erudite Xp and the psion has to pay for the GP and XP loss. This would basically limit you to WBL or the XP an Erudite Cohort has.

If the Psion is a Thrull Herd, they can use all their thrull's XP, kill the thrull, and get a shiny new replacement in 24 hours.

With a preparation limit of one year, this is still plenty of time to learn every published spell, and quite a few custom spells, too.

We may want to consider relaxing the "no Leadership" for the Wizard...

[InvisibleBison]

"a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch"

Still qualifies

If apocalypse from the sky uses an artifact as a focus, the artifact has to fit inside a spell component pouch to be assumed to be in there. I don't think the Annulus would fit.

[flappeercraft]

If the Psion is a Thrull Herd, they can use ask their thrull"s XP, kill the thrull, and get a shiny new replacement in 24 hours.

With a preparation limit of one year, this is still plenty of time to learn every published spell, and quite a few custom spells, too.

We may want to consider relaxing the "no Leadership" for the Wizard...

Well the Erudite still is limited by the list beiung of 8th level or lower spells. Also it is limited to Arcane Spells. Following on that, by a strict RAW reading StP Erudite barely even works unless I am missing something because it says it works as learning a Discipline Power and to learn a Discipline Power you must find it in a Power Stone which would not be possible since there would be no Spells as Powers prior, the next choice would be from someone elses repertoire which no one would have in their repertoire and the final one would be Expanded Knowledge for which you would need a feat slot and only works for powers. The only way to work it by RAW would be to get access to the Magic Mantle and then take Expanded Knowledge.

Edit: On the no Leadership, there is still Ice Assassin for the Wizard which the Psion could not access.

[Quertus]

Well the Erudite still is limited by the list beiung of 8th level or lower spells. Also it is limited to Arcane Spells. Following on that, by a strict RAW reading StP Erudite barely even works unless I am missing something because it says it works as learning a Discipline Power and to learn a Discipline Power you must find it in a Power Stone which would not be possible since there would be no Spells as Powers prior, the next choice would be from someone elses repertoire which no one would have in their repertoire and the final one would be Expanded Knowledge for which you would need a feat slot and only works for powers. The only way to work it by RAW would be to get access to the Magic Mantle and then take Expanded Knowledge.

Edit: On the no Leadership, there is still Ice Assassin for the Wizard which the Psion could not access.

I'm not actually familiar with StP Erudite. So I don't really follow all of your examples. But here's what I'm hearing: it's a solvable problem. Which, for a TO thought experiment, makes it a solved problem. Yes?

The reason I was going on about leadership is that it is the counterpoint to the Thrull class feature. They are mutually exclusive on a character. And allowing one but banning the other feels like favoritism - especially given how hugely powerful having a Thrull (or two) can be.

EDIT: also, having all your minions make you money during the one year to blow WBL out of the water is another potential issue. Is there any other way in which the "one year prep time" or Leadership vs Thrulls shows favoritism?

EDIT 2: if both Leadership and Thrulls are disallowed, how expensive would it be for a Psion to use their WBL to pay an NPC to add powers?

[Calthropstu]

It's TO. They both end up in some form of instagib stalemate where they both have access to everything, and they are both trapped in their own private demoplane where they have barred all entry by anyone or anything including gods. If either ever moves out of their demiplane they die to overwhelming force.

[flappeercraft]

I'm not actually familiar with StP Erudite. So I don't really follow all of your examples. But here's what I'm hearing: it's a solvable problem. Which, for a TO thought experiment, makes it a solved problem. Yes?

The reason I was going on about leadership is that it is the counterpoint to the Thrull class feature. They are mutually exclusive on a character. And allowing one but banning the other feels like favoritism - especially given how hugely powerful having a Thrull (or two) can be.

EDIT: also, having all your minions make you money during the one year to blow WBL out of the water is another potential issue. Is there any other way in which the "one year prep time" or Leadership vs Thrulls shows favoritism?

EDIT 2: if both Leadership and Thrulls are disallowed, how expensive would it be for a Psion to use their WBL to pay an NPC to add powers?

There is no RAW cost for Psionic Services but if you assume it's the same as for spellcasting then it would be 1530+XP costs. Each XP is worth 5GP more and each casting of Psychic Chirurgery for gioving powers costs 1,000xLevel in XP. The XP is splittable between the receiver and manifester if desired but if you don't want XP loss then it would range between 6,530-41,530 GP each Power, in this case Spell.

Edit: Also the manifesting time is also 10 minutes so that does remove some prep time.

[Quertus]

It's TO. They both end up in some form of instagib stalemate where they both have access to everything, and they are both trapped in their own private demoplane where they have barred all entry by anyone or anything including gods. If either ever moves out of their demiplane they die to overwhelming force.

Then please help with the rules to make it an interesting match.

We've already got rules like "no infinite" and "no arbitrary" and "bounded by one year prep time". What problems do you still see, and what rules would you suggest to fairly prevent such problems?


There is no RAW cost for Psionic Services but if you assume it's the same as for spellcasting then it would be 1530+XP costs. Each XP is worth 5GP more and each casting of Psychic Chirurgery for gioving powers costs 1,000xLevel in XP. The XP is splittable between the receiver and manifester if desired but if you don't want XP loss then it would range between 6,530-41,530 GP each Power, in this case Spell.

Edit: Also the manifesting time is also 10 minutes so that does remove some prep time.

Well, that's a pretty penny. Anyone care to do the math on whether or not a hoard of minions can craft enough valuables to keep up with the maximum possible manifestations of this power? how much money a Psion can make crafting all by himself for a year?

[Crichton]

If apocalypse from the sky uses an artifact as a focus, the artifact has to fit inside a spell component pouch to be assumed to be in there. I don't think the Annulus would fit.
I don't think 3.5 has a listed capacity for the pouch, but the 3.0 PHB does, listed at .25lbs, and 1/8 cubic feet. Make your own judgements from that information. As for me, I doubt an Annulus would fit.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The only way I know that a Psion can get wizard spells is via Psychic Chirurgery from an StP Erudite, which would require a Telepath to give it to the Erudite and every manifesting of the power would cost the Erudite Xp and the psion has to pay for the GP and XP loss. This would basically limit you to WBL or the XP an Erudite Cohort has.Combine this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes) to uncap both gp and xp expenditures for yourself. Nigh infinite WBL and expendable XP? Sure.


If apocalypse from the sky uses an artifact as a focus, the artifact has to fit inside a spell component pouch to be assumed to be in there. I don't think the Annulus would fit.Buy a Large/Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal spell component pouch. Done. :smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Timeless Body also makes him immune to dispelling, disjunction, and anything else the Wizard could possibly use against him.

Citation needed. See also, can Detect Magic detect Mind Blank?

EDIT: also, Timeless Body calls out "effects", "attacks", and "powers". By a strict RAW interpretation, what are the definitions of these terms? What shenanigans - other than being unable to buff one's self, restore one's Contingency, restore one's Mind Blank, etc - does this imply?

Target or Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets)
"You must be able to see or touch the target..."

Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) has no visual manifestation, it has a material manifestation which is not the power itself and which does not last more than one round after the power was manifested. You cannot see the power itself, thus you cannot target it. The targeted version of Dispel Magic can only be used to target spells which create a visible or physical effect that you can see or touch, any other spell or power is an invalid target for that use of the spell.

Your body ignores all harmful (and helpful) effects encompasses any effect generated by any means, including the impact of a heavy object falling on the character. Including anything that could possibly remove the Timeless Body power from your character prior to the end of its duration.

The Wizard's chances of success will not exceed zero, he absolutely cannot win.

[InvisibleBison]

Buy a Large/Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal spell component pouch. Done. :smallamused:

Spell component pouches, unlike ordinary pouches, don't come in different sizes for larger or smaller creatures.

[Zaq]

I believe that my standard answer applies here. It's originally intended to be applied to two Wizards, but a Wizard and a Psion fit the same roles.

Basically, if two characters of this level of rules BS end up in opposition to each other, they meet somewhere neutral (maybe a bespoke demiplane specifically conjured for such a purpose), sit down, share a nice cup of tea, and go over their exhaustive lists of contingencies and counter-contingencies and counter-counter-contingencies and immunities and anti-immunities and preparations and plots and schemes and counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-contingencies and all the other crap that's allegedly on their character sheets. When they realize which one of them has a contingency or preparation or BS trick that the other cannot counter, they declare that one the victor, shake hands in a civil fashion, and go on with their lives, usually with the loser agreeing to stand down out of the victor's way as necessary or appropriate. They're both smart enough (these are TO Wizards and Psions, after all, with INT scores probably far beyond most printed deities) to recognize that whoever was more obnoxiously prepared would indeed win if they bothered rolling initiative, and they see no reason to go through with the charade of getting to that point, as the end is indeed foretold.

This is the only answer that makes sense.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<Utter Brilliance>Why doesn't Giantitp have a Like button?