Soulknife multiple mindblades question (follow on from RAW thread)

[justiceforall]

This is a follow up from Q556 in the latest RAW QnA thread. I pulled it out of there to avoid cluttering that thread.

To save people going and looking things up, the question:


a) Can a human(oid) soulknife manifest two mind blades at level 1?

I can't find anything that indicates that a Soulknife cannot manifest two mindblades at level 1. It is implied in the "Shape Mindblade" ability by the fact that its specified that you can split the mindblade, but the RAW text under the mindblade ability doesn't seem to preclude it. It seems that as long as you have a free hand, you could manifest a second one as a second move action, and also keep the first?

And the answer:


No. A Soulknife only has one mind blade. It's the same one each time.

Can I get a quote for that ruling from the source material? I cannot for the life of me find anything that specifies that. I may be just overlooking it. If its from something other than the SRD can someone point me in the right direction?

This is the primary text I'm working from (SRD):


Mind Blade (Su)
As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that he can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus.

The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below). A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A soulknife can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. He can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade.

A soulknife’s mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the mind blade gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th level).

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the soulknife maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect.

[tedcahill2]

I feel like the description of the Shape Mindblade ability gained later pretty heavily supports that a level 1 mind blade can't produce two mind blades.

I personally see no reason a low level soul knife couldn't make 2 dagger sized mind blades at level 1 though.

[The Viscount]

The text for shape mindblade gives you the rules on splitting a mind blade. Poor as the design is, there is no reason why a soulknife would split mindblades if they could just manifest 2 mindblades. From this it follows that you cannot make two mindblades, just like you can only make your mindblade in the shape of the weapons listed (unless you take one of the feats to get another weapon shape, and then use weapon aptitude for something interesting).

[XionUnborn01]

A soulknife’s mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels.

This seems to read like it's one thing, unchanging. Similar to how you would "a soulknife's hand" or aomething.

[Troacctid]

The wording is not so different from the Druid's animal companion ability. How many animal companions can a Druid have?

[RedMage125]

OP: Your answer lies in the very text you are quoting for the rules.

"As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. "

Singular.

The entire basis for the question that was asked in the QnA thread is rooted in the mindset of "If there's no rules saying I can't, then by RAW I can". Which is patently false. In fact, we refer to such thinking as Munchkin Fallacy. That's not how rules of a game system work for ANY situation. And of course, like I pointed out, the RAW actually DOES specify a singular mind blade.

[death390]

i find the thing about splitting a mind blade is so that you dont spend a 2 actions to setup. a split mind blade takes 1 action but splits the enchantments in half if i remember right. why can't you make 2 separate mind blades? it just says that you can make a mind blade that lasts for as long as you hold it. throwing a mind blade is hard but if i could make 4 ahead of time and throw them as needed i would.

[Necroticplague]

Turn the question around: where does it say you can make more than one mindblade without the Shape Mindblade ability? Every reference to the Mindblade in the Mind Blade ability uses the singular form.There's nothing indicating it's possible to have more than one without Shape Mindblade. Therefore, it isn't.

[The Viscount]

throwing a mind blade is hard but if i could make 4 ahead of time and throw them as needed i would.

the 17th level of soulknife is fighting you here. If you could just make several and throw them all in a round, you wouldn't need this feature.

[KillianHawkeye]

The entire basis for the question that was asked in the QnA thread is rooted in the mindset of "If there's no rules saying I can't, then by RAW I can". Which is patently false. In fact, we refer to such thinking as Munchkin Fallacy.

I'm sorry, but I believe that's actually called the Air Bud Fallacy. :smallwink:

[death390]

the 17th level of soulknife is fighting you here. If you could just make several and throw them all in a round, you wouldn't need this feature.

sure you would. it takes time to make them. AT MOST you could make 2 a round and not use them. i think of them like the Spell Fire Shuriken, make a set number then use them or let them disapate from not holding them.

@17th level you can make as many as you can throw in the round. the wording of the standard ability is that you make one as a move action that lasts until you let go or dismiss it. it doesn't have a limiter on them beyond you must hold them.

the closest limiter is the split mind blade feature that lets you make 2 for the same action cost but split the abilities between them.

[justiceforall]

So the basis of the ruling is on "a" and "blade" being a hard reference to a singular object? Is this correct?

References to munchkinism and other judgements aside of course.

My question was rather stemming from the expectation that the rules sometimes include a specific reference saying something along the lines of "can only have one at a time", and the absence of this made me curious. My interest that prompted me to post this thread is primarily in the logical analysis of how a ruling is correct, rather than trying to argue that my initial interpretation was correct.


The text for shape mindblade gives you the rules on splitting a mind blade. Poor as the design is, there is no reason why a soulknife would split mindblades if they could just manifest 2 mindblades. From this it follows that you cannot make two mindblades, just like you can only make your mindblade in the shape of the weapons listed (unless you take one of the feats to get another weapon shape, and then use weapon aptitude for something interesting).

This strikes me as a RAI interpretation, not a RAW? Since one does not specifically backwards reference the other? I concede that this does imply that the way it is *meant* to work is a single blade, but as I said I'm more digging into the logical analysis.

[The Viscount]

The fact that a later class feature gives you specific permission to make two mind blades strikes you as a RAI interpretation?

If this does not satisfy you I don't think I can provide anything that will.

[justiceforall]

The fact that a later class feature gives you specific permission to make two mind blades strikes you as a RAI interpretation?

If this does not satisfy you I don't think I can provide anything that will.

I've already accepted that the ruling is correct, and am asking to have explained *how* it is correct.

I'm doing the same thing here - I'm asking if a class ability that specifically allows something therefore also specifically disallows something else in an earlier ability (by RAW)? Assuming of course that the initial ability didn't specifically already disallow it (conceded). I simply provided my guess along with the question.

[The Viscount]

I suppose I came to the conclusion using formal induction. I can't exactly say that it's a part of RAW in 3.5, but it's rather necessary to interact with the rules.

Class features in general give you explicit permissions for what they are used for, rather than specific denials. Denials may exist for clarification, but they will not exclude as a rule.
For example, the ranger's favored enemy class feature gives you a +2 on damage rolls against an enemy group of your choice (say undead). It is not explicitly stated that you cannot apply this +2 damage against a type other than undead, but it can be understood from how they write class feature rules.

Does that help any?

[Drelua]

Also, there's this:
The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates
So unless you want to argue with the GM about how many blades you can grip in one hand at a time then I think that's at least a clear limitation of two blades. Unless you want to argue that the next bit:
(unless he intends to throw it; see below) means you can keep a bunch of them around as long as you plan on throwing them, but that would be silly and if I were the GM I would probably swear at you for trying that. Not in a mean way, just a 'you're being ridiculous, knock it off' kind of way.