Question about Okoye (Black Panther movie)

[Roger_Druid]

Hi to all,

DnD Question about Okoye (in the Black Panther movie the general of the King's guard); related to

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552273-Do-you-concider-this-to-go-against-a-Paladin-code

Let's suppose she is a Paladin; has she fallen after she helped T'Challa's family to escape? Has she fallen after she attacked T'Challa's successor (he was still the King)? Has she fallen 'cause she attacked him with her comrades (and he was only one)?

I'd like to hear your opinions! Thank you,

Roger Green

[BWR]

Depends on the exact nature of her oath. If it's a more classical paladin, sworn to an earthly liege, as is the case for her order, I would say she lost her powers by betraying her king, if not necessarily by helping the former royals to flee, since I don't believe the guard were explicitly ordered to round them up, then at least when she attacked Killmonger. If she has a higher calling, she might very well lose them for otherwise accepting the rule of an obvious villain, though an atonement would help since she didn't actively do anything evil that we could see, unless you count aiding what basically amounts to civil war all over the globe by doing nothing to stop it.

[Lapak]

Hi to all,

DnD Question about Okoye (in the Black Panther movie the general of the King's guard); related to

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552273-Do-you-concider-this-to-go-against-a-Paladin-code

Let's suppose she is a Paladin; has she fallen after she helped T'Challa's family to escape? Has she fallen after she attacked T'Challa's successor (he was still the King)? Has she fallen 'cause she attacked him with her comrades (and he was only one)?

I'd like to hear your opinions! Thank you,

Roger Green

No to the first, no to the second, no to the third. She feels more LN with G tendencies than LG in the first place - notice that she was uncomfortable serving Killonger but did so out of obligation, and gladly jumped ship the minute she had legal justification to do so - but none of the things you mention would make a paladin fall in my game.

Rescuing the royal family from potential reprisals actually strikes me as an act that protects both the innocent and her new king from himself - a paladin whose lord might take an evil action if temptation isn’t cleared from his path is well-served by a paladin doing that.

The movie establishes that with T’Challa alive his successor has no actual claim to the throne - the challenge for rulership never ended, and so the new ‘king’ is illegitimate. Plus he’s showing Evil colors by then, so she’s covered there even if there had been a question; Paladins are not just allowed but required to oppose unjust authorities.

And unless she had a specific code that forbade it (she did not), ganging up wouldn’t do it either. Paladins are allowed to act in concert. (And the fact that they did not prevail suggests that it was a fair fight.)

[Kaptin Keen]

As a paladin, you're lawful - and you're good.

As long as you keep one of those, I'd say you can't fall. So in other words, you could bend lawfulness to do good, or you could bend goodness to be lawful. Which, as far as I can see, is precisely what she does.

[Katrina]

I would follow the above poster to say that Paladins have always struck me as "more good than Lawful" in that they are often admonished to consider concepts such as allowing an evil ruler to depose a good one through "legal means" something to oppose.

That said, I do agree that she seems more Lawful Neutral in portrayal. A Paladin is often called upon to make hard choices. In these situations, no Paladin would have to fear a fall from me.

I am reminded of the time the guys and I played Kingmaker. The Paladin of Iomedae had been offering surrender at the beginning of every battle with the bandits and one had finally hit that narrow zone between "their tactics say they surrender" and "dead." So the bandit surrendered, whereupon the Paladin declared that in accordance with law, he would be hanged until dead. The patron in the beginning of the quest does state this, so he was legally correct. I advised him to change his battlecry to something making it clear that surrender would not result in mercy if that was the way he was going to play it. He followed with "surrender and be hung!"

[Mordar]

Hi to all,

DnD Question about Okoye (in the Black Panther movie the general of the King's guard); related to

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552273-Do-you-concider-this-to-go-against-a-Paladin-code

Let's suppose she is a Paladin; has she fallen after she helped T'Challa's family to escape? Has she fallen after she attacked T'Challa's successor (he was still the King)? Has she fallen 'cause she attacked him with her comrades (and he was only one)?

I'd like to hear your opinions! Thank you,

Roger Green

Answers spoilered because they are...well...spoilers for the movie!

(a) Did Killmonger issue an order to her to hunt them down? I recall the conversation with Nakia (I think...it wasn't Shuri, was it?) but we didn't see an order from Killmonger,
so it is hard to say. As such, I say "No, but pending further details there may be a problem".

(b) Absolutely not. The key is that he was not the King of Wakanda at that point. T'Challa did not surrender, and he was clearly not dead, so the matter was still in dispute. As such, Killmonger is the half-Wakadan challenger to the throne, and T'Challa is the King. Rather than completing the challenge, Killmonger "ordered" the Wakandans to kill their King. *Not* attacking him (or at least resisting him to prevent the murder of the current King) *would* be unlawful and should probably warrant a fall.

(c) Almost certainly not. He is clearly "super human" having ingested the heart-shaped plant juice, and when attacked is currently a criminal insurrectionist that is attempting regicide. Honorable one-on-one combat probably wouldn't apply in that moment, and it would only ever apply if that were a part of the specific code (and disallowed dispensation for special circumstances like non-human-level powers/magic).

- M

[Frozen_Feet]

The question is moot because Okoye is not a Paladin. At first, I thought this whole thread was in the wrong area, but since you want to entertain what-ifs:

The entire issue boils down to how strong a paladin's obligation to the throne is, which in turn centers around the concept of legitimate order. It's worth noting that while a paladin might serve a mortal liege, they are not empowered by mortal jurisdiction. Because of this, what constitutes a legitimate order is decided by Cosmic forces of Lawful Good, not mortal jurisdiction.

And, this is important, a paladin only immediately falls for evil actions. They do not immediately fall for non-lawful actions. So if a paladin's lawful ruler orders them to commit an evil act, the paladin can consider the order illegitimate and do what's good instead .

And that's Okoye's situation in a nutshell. When and where her actions are questionable in regards to her obligation to the throne, she is acting to protect people from unnecessary violence. Hence, she is in the clear there. In her fight with Killmonger, Killmonger has legal right to order her to attack T'Challa, because by any reasonable reading T'Challa lost the ritual duel due to needing outside help to get back on his feet. However, Killmonger is also acting in pursuit of destructive war, so jumping on the chance to oppose him is a good thing.

Hence Okoye would not fall even if she was a paladin.

[Psyren]

She's definitely not a paladin, nor even really LG. "I serve that throne, regardless of who sits in it" not only sums up her character, it's textbook LN, even if she's on the good guys' side most of the time. It's more happy coincidence that the throne's current occupant is an idealist (or more accurately, is taking his cues from the one idealist he wants to bone and the other idealist who makes all his gear.)

Heck, it took a technicality to even get her to question her current course at all.

[RFLS]

Pretty much what Psyren said. That being said, it ignored the premise.

So...I'll assume she's a paladin. Paladins follow a strict code, but it's not airtight. There's wiggle room for them to interpret, and she is clearly caught between her two loyalties. She didn't violate her code because her code had two interpretations; the lawful and the good. She chose one, but never left the code.

[vasilidor]

I often see part of the duties of a paladin in service to a king or kingdom to be to ensure said king acts in a lawful good manner, often by giving advice or removing temptations from sight or by opposing those acts and laws that are evil or would result in evil.