Sniping and shooting from behind cover

[Mechanize]

Can you do a ranged attack from behind full cover (the corner of a wall for example) then return to full cover in the same round? or is that exactly what sniping is?

And are there any feats to counter the -20 to hide when sniping?

[BowStreetRunner]

That is what Sniping is.

Able Sniper feat from Races of the Wild gives a +4 to re-hide. (Woodland Archer in the same book allows you to also add a move action to sniping, not just shoot and hide.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
Able Sniper feat from Races of the Wild gives a +4 to re-hide. (Woodland Archer in the same book allows you to also add a move action to sniping, not just shoot and hide.)

Can you build a good sniper around those two feats, or would it need more to be really effective?

Apart from Precise Shot/PBS, that is.

[Mechanize]

Thanks! So then the only way for someone to return fire on me with a ranged attack when I'm sniping is to 1. succeed a spot check to find me and 2. have a readied action to attack me when I do so?

If the above is correct, do I retain soft cover at least since I didn't really fully come out into the open?

Also... under varying degrees of cover it says it is possible to gain a +10 to hide with improved cover. Can anyone give an example of improved cover? I'm not sure I understand what can be more cover than total cover in order to get the +10 to hide.

[BowStreetRunner]

Can you build a good sniper around those two feats, or would it need more to be really effective?

Apart from Precise Shot/PBS, that is.

I think that you would need a massive Hide skill to begin with. A source of invisibility would be awesome, but you'd have to be able to get around the invisibility going down when you attack. Tome of Battle has some maneuvers that might work - but they are primarily for the one martial adept class with recovery method of one full round action.

[Hiro Quester]

Hide in plain sight ability (e.g. from the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, which applies the Dark Creature template to you for up to 10 min/day) can help a lot with hiding while people are watching you. This is up to DM's interpretation, but it seems to at least remove that -20 penalty when sniping.

You can also use the bluff skill to create a diversion while you re-hide:


If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.


Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

[Mechanize]

Can you build a good sniper around those two feats, or would it need more to be really effective?

Apart from Precise Shot/PBS, that is.

Good is a relative term lol. I'm playing this sniping build right now in a campaign where no one is power gaming in any way and its been interesting. You won't get consistent damage but its decent enough. The character is quite versatile due to being rogue based rather than ranger and having different arrow options, and a little bit of help from the DM to lower the ridiculous ammo costs. And I can stay alive quite easily compared to melee. It's not all that powerful but something different for me at least.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechanize
I'm playing this sniping build right now in a campaign where no one is power gaming in any way and its been interesting. You won't get consistent damage but its decent enough.

Interesting that you're doing this as a rogue. Would you be willing to post your current build? I'd be interested to see what you're running with.

[Matrota]

If you're planning on moving out of cover, attacking, and returning to cover, you can do this without "sniping." If you pick up travel devotion, you can move as a swift action out of cover, attack, and use your normal move action to hide again. This way you can also use things like rapid shot.

[BowStreetRunner]

Also... under varying degrees of cover it says it is possible to gain a +10 to hide with improved cover. Can anyone give an example of improved cover? I'm not sure I understand what can be more cover than total cover in order to get the +10 to hide.

Think of it this way. Imagine you are in the middle of a sandy beach with a single boulder. Nothing else for miles around except this boulder. It is just big enough that if you stand behind it you an get total cover. So you hide there, stepping out to take a shot and then attempting to re-hide.

There is absolutely no other place on the entire beach to hide. The other person doesn't have to look around much to find where the shot may have come from. So no bonus to hide.

Now consider another situation. You are in the middle of one of the most overgrown jungles in the world and have a tree that is just big enough to give you total cover. Except this time you not only have the advantage of the tree itself, but all of the hanging foliage and other stuff everywhere around to help make it harder to spot you. So the DM gives you the +10 for the much higher degree of cover.

That's how I would apply it.

[Mechanize]

Interesting that you're doing this as a rogue. Would you be willing to post your current build? I'd be interested to see what you're running with.

Sure, but it's nothing special at all. Very basic builds on all of our players.

Fighter 2 Rogue 7

Feats: Point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus, sniper (allowed with bows by DM), dark stalker and dead eye shot. Just hit 9th level so trying to figure out if I want to take craven, able sniper or woodland archer.

If you want to go pure hide and snipe style you might want to leave out dead eye shot and take the others mentioned. We had an orc barbarian that almost never missed, so it was pretty much an automatic sneak attack every round I wanted so deadeye shot was well worth it to me.

I don't want to list all the skills taken, but typical rogue skills that leave me mobile, sneaky and disarmy. lol

vanisher cloak and quiver of ehlonna were the only items i took worth mentioning. That and the DM allowed me to buy a "finesse" bow (pretty sure its home brew lol) that let me put dex to damage, similar to how composite bows work with strength.

Versatility comes with stocking up on all different types of arrows.

[Mechanize]

If you're planning on moving out of cover, attacking, and returning to cover, you can do this without "sniping." If you pick up travel devotion, you can move as a swift action out of cover, attack, and use your normal move action to hide again. This way you can also use things like rapid shot.

it's a good idea, but dipping into random classes was kind of frowned upon so I kept it simple with rogue/fighter

[Matrota]

it's a good idea, but dipping into random classes was kind of frowned upon so I kept it simple with rogue/fighter

My bad for not clarifying. Travel Devotion (Complete Champion p. 62) is a feat that anyone can take, you don't need to dip into anything for it. It's just that you can use turn/rebuke attempts to gain additional uses of the feat each day if you have them, otherwise you can only use it for 1 minute/day. Still, that's 10 rounds, which will get you through most combat encounters.

[Mechanize]

My bad for not clarifying. Travel Devotion (Complete Champion p. 62) is a feat that anyone can take, you don't need to dip into anything for it. It's just that you can use turn/rebuke attempts to gain additional uses of the feat each day if you have them, otherwise you can only use it for 1 minute/day. Still, that's 10 rounds, which will get you through most combat encounters.

Oooh, I was thinking I had to dip into cleric to get that. My bad

[BowStreetRunner]

Oooh, I was thinking I had to dip into cleric to get that. My bad

If you can make a DC 21 Emulate a Class Feature check in Use Magic Device while in possession of a Nightstick (item from Libris Mortis) you can actually burn a turn attempt from the Nightstick 4 times a day for additional uses of the Travel Devotion feat. While you still don't get the ability to actually Turn Undead from the UMD check you can burn a use as if you could.

[Zombimode]

Travel Devotion (Complete Champion p. 62) is a feat that anyone can take

This is not entirely correct. You actually have to be devoted to the concept you take the devotion feat for. See CC p. 52 for details.

[Crake]

Hide in plain sight ability (e.g. from the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, which applies the Dark Creature template to you for up to 10 min/day) can help a lot with hiding while people are watching you. This is up to DM's interpretation, but it seems to at least remove that -20 penalty when sniping.

You can also use the bluff skill to create a diversion while you re-hide:

Hide in plain sight doesn't remove the -20 penalty, but it does allow you to hide again if you get spotted. It's the difference between being seen for a moment, thus making you susceptible to readied actions, then hiding again vs not being seen at all.

So if you had hide in plain sight, your routine would go like this: Attack, spend a move action to hide while sniping at a -20 penalty. If you are spotted, opponents with readied actions can attempt to attack you, if you are not, you're fine and your turn ends here. If you are spotted, you can use a 5ft step to then hide in plain sight (hiding can be done with any sort of movement) without a penalty, returning to being hidden, assuming your hide check is good enough. I would honestly probably suggest you spend a 5ft step to hide again even if you DON'T get spotted after sniping, just so if enemies use a move action to actively spot on their turn, they're going against the hide check without a -20 penalty. This may not be possible, depending on what kind of cover you're using, though if you've got one of the good hide in plain sights that lets you hide without cover or concealment, and while being observed, this isn't an issue, because you can just move around the battlfield practically perfectly stealthed (assuming you have a good enough hide check that is :P).

Of course, if you have such a good hide check, and hide in plain sight, you're actually probably better off just fighting in melee, because, at least in 3.5, hiding while attacking also imposes a -20 penalty, but doesn't require wasting a move action to hide again, so you can execute an entire full attack routine while remaining hidden, again, assuming your hide check is good enough to do so (and if you're ever spotted, again, just 5ft step and resume hiding without a -20 penalty).


If you're planning on moving out of cover, attacking, and returning to cover, you can do this without "sniping." If you pick up travel devotion, you can move as a swift action out of cover, attack, and use your normal move action to hide again. This way you can also use things like rapid shot.

Doing this does not let you remain hidden. Sniping requires you be in a place where you can hide from your opponent, and still attack them. This means cover, or concealment. From either of those positions, you can attack, then spend a move action to remain hidden (with a -20 penalty), without ever actually moving. What you're describing is moving out of cover which immediately removes your ability to stay hidden, and once you're spotted, you can no longer hide without hide in plain sight, as you have now become "observed", and you cannot hide while being observed. The only benefit to this method is that you can go from total cover, move out and attack, then return to total cover, meaning you are safe from counter attacks. Unless the enemy can move to a position where you don't have total cover. Or they have readied actions.

I'm not sure what the OP's goal is, if it's darting between cover to remain impervious to counterattack, then this method is good. If his goal is to remain hidden so enemies don't know his location, and he gets sneak attack after each attack? Then this method will not help at all.

[Seharvepernfan]

Can you do a ranged attack from behind full cover (the corner of a wall for example) then return to full cover in the same round?

Not unless you have shot on the run.


or is that exactly what sniping is?

And are there any feats to counter the -20 to hide when sniping?

No. Sniping is leaning around the corner and keeping your eye on your target the entire time. Leaning around a corner is improved cover, which grants a +10 bonus to hide checks, so that alone halves the penalty. I know of a feat from dragon magazine, and something from RotW.

edit: actually, leaning around a corner is improved cover, but attacking from the corner would reduce it to regular cover; it's only "improved" cover when you're just peeking around it. You'd need an arrow slit or something similar to keep improved cover while attacking.

[Mechanize]

Not unless you have shot on the run.



No. Sniping is leaning around the corner and keeping your eye on your target the entire time. Leaning around a corner is improved cover, which grants a +10 bonus to hide checks, so that alone halves the penalty. I know of a feat from dragon magazine, and something from RotW.

edit: actually, leaning around a corner is improved cover, but attacking from the corner would reduce it to regular cover; it's only "improved" cover when you're just peeking around it. You'd need an arrow slit or something similar to keep improved cover while attacking.

Well now I'm confused all over again. Where in the heck are you getting this? Sniping is like 1 sentence in SRD and it says nothing about all of that.

[Mechanize]

I'm not sure what the OP's goal is, if it's darting between cover to remain impervious to counterattack, then this method is good. If his goal is to remain hidden so enemies don't know his location, and he gets sneak attack after each attack? Then this method will not help at all.

The latter is my goal. Sneak attack every round, remain hidden/in cover.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well now I'm confused all over again. Where in the heck are you getting this? Sniping is like 1 sentence in SRD and it says nothing about all of that.

I had thought that "hiding" as in making a hide check, implies that you are still partially visible. If you have total cover, then you are totally covered and you and your enemy can't see each other at all. Being hidden (but still partially visible because you can see your enemy and therefor at least part of your head is within view) and making a ranged attack without being seen is "sniping" and it's hard (-20 penalty) because you are still visible and they have a sudden reason to look in your direction.

Going from total cover, shooting, and returning to total cover would require shot on the run if it required you to actually move from one square to another and back again. Does it? It's not clear. In the pic below, that'd be going from the green square to the blue one and back.

http://i68.tinypic.com/24pgapf.jpg

If you are in the green square and your target is the red square, you have cover from them, but not total cover because a part of your square is visible from a part of their square. Any DM would probably let you have total cover in that square if you say you are hugging the wall. Peering around the corner would grant you improved cover (PHB pg 152), and corners count as regular cover (pg 150)...so where does it say if you can shoot around a corner using improved cover or not? The same line that says you can "peer around" the corner with improved cover also says "peer through an arrow slit", but we know that arrow slits grant improved cover when you shoot through them while normal corners grant regular cover.

Rereading the hide skill section and the cover section makes me question my stance, because it's not clear. In one part, it says that total cover or concealment usually but not always obviates the need for a hide check. It then says "(see below)" but never goes on to specify anything about total cover after that. Was it implying using total cover in the sniping section? Why does it never talk about you not seeing your enemy if you are using total cover? Perhaps it's because if your enemy has spotted you, you aren't hiding anymore? Perhaps because even if your opponent is hiding, if you spot them and go behind full cover and they don't spot you, they can't specifically hide from you because they haven't spotted you yet?

Perplexing.

My original stance was that you can look (but not shoot) around a corner with improved cover. To shoot, you'd have to use regular cover. If you are hiding, you don't have total cover. Moving from total cover to regular cover or no cover sounds like actually making a move action or 5ft adjustment (thus requiring shot on the run). But I might be wrong about all that.

[Mechanize]

Another question... Rules say -20 to hide when attacking. Sniping says -20 to RE hide after attacking if already hidden. Which of the following ways is how this works when sniping from total cover?

1. I say I'm attempting to snipe and first roll to attack and get to sneak attack, because I'm already hidden, then -20 to attempt to remain unseen and repeat the following turn if I succeed my hide check?

OR

2. I say I'm attempting to snipe and roll to hide -20 because I'm attacking, roll to attack, then roll to hide again at -20 after sniping? Failing the first hide check means no sneak attack. Succeeding first but failing second means 1 sneak attack but not next round since I was spotted.

I'm not sure if the Snipe rule overrides the normal -20 to hide while attacking, or just adds more rolls to hide.

[Crake]

Another question... Rules say -20 to hide when attacking. Sniping says -20 to RE hide after attacking if already hidden. Which of the following ways is how this works when sniping from total cover?

1. I say I'm attempting to snipe and first roll to attack and get to sneak attack, because I'm already hidden, then -20 to attempt to remain unseen and repeat the following turn if I succeed my hide check?

OR

2. I say I'm attempting to snipe and roll to hide -20 because I'm attacking, roll to attack, then roll to hide again at -20 after sniping? Failing the first hide check means no sneak attack. Succeeding first but failing second means 1 sneak attack but not next round since I was spotted.

I'm not sure if the Snipe rule overrides the normal -20 to hide while attacking, or just adds more rolls to hide.

If you're in total cover, you cannot attack your foe, because your foe also has total cover to you.

[Mechanize]

If you're in total cover, you cannot attack your foe, because your foe also has total cover to you.

Well then I ask again, what is sniping? Seems to be a lot of mixed opinions here on this subject... First response to my post said that is exactly what sniping is, peaking around cover, firing, and returning to cover. And the more I research this topic, the more I agree. Here is why...

In the rules it says you can snipe when successfully hidden. To be hidden you need to be in concealment or cover. Sniping is 1 attack, then rehide at -20. If you are saying you can't shoot from total cover, and it must be normal cover or concealment, like from a dark spot or from behind a low wall, then why would I EVER choose to snipe from normal cover and sacrifice a full attack when I can just have a +4 AC cover bonus, stand there, shoot multiple arrows, then use my 5ft move action to hide at -20? (due to attacking)

It sounds like to me that the intent for sniping rule, while convoluted, was for doing just that... peaking around cover, shooting once, and returning to cover. The draw back is that I get 1 attack, the bonus is total cover. Someone needs to either ready a ranged attack against me peaking to shoot, move in on me, or flush me out with AOE. To me this makes sense. It's how ranged combat works IRL. No one comes out from cover, stands out in the open, and fires ranged weapons like an idiot. And as much as I get that "this is a game and not real life" the creator of 3.5 went to a lot of lengths with 1000 diff rules to make physical combat realistic and detailed.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, so ignore the concept of "peaking around the corner." What matters is your space and the target's space.

If you can draw a line from ANY corner of your space to EVERY corner of the target's space, you can shoot them without cover bonuses applied to their defense.

If you can draw a line from ANY corner of your square to ANY corner of the target's square you can still shoot at them, but they have cover.

You cannot stand at the edge of a wall and be in complete cover. The opponent can draw a line to the corner of your square touching the edge and can shoot you at any time.

Now, sniping does not directly require cover. Any concealment will do. It can simply be a dark night and you shooting from the shadows.

Once you are seen, you CANNOT rehide normally once you interact with a target. Snipeing allows you to bypass this as an exception to the rule allowing you to interact with the target without them counting as having seen you.

If you are seen you must break ALL lines between the target's square and your square to rehide unless you have hide in plain sight.

[Seharvepernfan]

Another question... Rules say -20 to hide when attacking. Sniping says -20 to RE hide after attacking if already hidden. Which of the following ways is how this works when sniping from total cover?

1. I say I'm attempting to snipe and first roll to attack and get to sneak attack, because I'm already hidden, then -20 to attempt to remain unseen and repeat the following turn if I succeed my hide check?

OR

2. I say I'm attempting to snipe and roll to hide -20 because I'm attacking, roll to attack, then roll to hide again at -20 after sniping? Failing the first hide check means no sneak attack. Succeeding first but failing second means 1 sneak attack but not next round since I was spotted.

I'm not sure if the Snipe rule overrides the normal -20 to hide while attacking, or just adds more rolls to hide.

Due to the "see below" line, I'm inclined to think you're right about the "lean out, shoot, lean in" from total cover thing, even if (in my example) you don't technically have "total" cover in the green square from the red square. You may have to spot your enemy again, however, because you broke line of sight to them by being in total cover in the first place. And if somebody had a readied action to shoot you (and managed to spot you), you'd have regular cover from them. That's how I'm going to rule it from now on.

Anyway, it's #1. If #2 is how things worked, rogues could hardly ever sneak attack from hiding, and of course it should always be easier to hide while attacking from a distance than up close.

It's pissing me off they included the "charging/running/attacking at -20" thing. Charging and running require your full effort, and the "attacking" part makes the "sniping" section redundant. I swear it's like two people wrote the rules in this game; one guy who gets it and at least one more who doesn't.

[Mechanize]

Now, sniping does not directly require cover. Any concealment will do. It can simply be a dark night and you shooting from the shadows.

Once you are seen, you CANNOT rehide normally once you interact with a target. Snipeing allows you to bypass this as an exception to the rule allowing you to interact with the target without them counting as having seen you.


Everything you said sounded legit until I got to this part...

You can't re hide normally once you interact? It specifically says that if you attack while hidden you get a -20. This implies that you CAN interact with a target and still remain hidden with a good check. Meaning that Sniping must serve a different purpose...

[Fouredged Sword]

It is restating the same rule in different places. You may make a hide check to remain hidden after attacking at a -20. This is what that segment states and it is qhat sniping states. It is the exception to the more general rule of exposing yourself while hiding.

[Mechanize]

It is restating the same rule in different places. You may make a hide check to remain hidden after attacking at a -20. This is what that segment states and it is qhat sniping states. It is the exception to the more general rule of exposing yourself while hiding.

Understood, but I'm trying to find out the difference between being hidden and attacking, and being hidden and sniping. Can't get a consistent answer here.

Lets take peaking around corners and cover out of the equation to simplify things. My rogue is in a dark spot, concealed and hidden, attempting to sneak attack someone who is visible. I have two options... Attack, or snipe.

Attack = -20 to hide, full round attack, and as hiding is part of any movement and doesn't require an action, I can still remain hidden if I win the check.

Snipe = -20 to hide, 1 attack, re hiding costs a move action.

Sniping has to serve some purpose because as it's worded it looks utterly useless and I'm willing to bet that it's intent was to allow peaking around cover, just like realistic ranged combat.

[Fouredged Sword]

Sniping allows you to not move if you desire. Say, you are prone behind some small bush and have nowhere to 5ft step without stepping out if cover.

Also, I think you are extending the statement "It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging" to say something it doesn't.

It doesn't allow you to hide after an attack. It states that if you attempt to hide after an attack you suffer at least a -20 to the attempt. You still need to be able to actually hide.

For example, two invisible people with see invisible fighting eachother infront of an unaware ogre would suffer a -20 to their hide checks for hding fron the ogre, but cannot hide from eachother. Once the ogre sees them, they are seen.

Same for two rogues fighting in a bush before ambushing a merchant caravan. This is a general rule about a penalty. You still need to have both concealment AND be unobserved to hide. Once spotted attacking does no allow them to hide somehow.

Sniping allows you to bypass the need to break observation. Hide in plain sight (read these carefully, wordings on concealment and observation varries greatly) allows much the same thing, but suffers the same penalty of -20 even if it is more flexible.

Remember, each creature tracks visibility separately. Some may be able to see you while you remain hidden to others. You can attack one person from hiding and notnl reveal yourself to his companions even though your target sees you.

Do note, talk to your Dm and read the cover and concealment rules carefully. There is a not a solid statement about what counts as "observation" and how to break it. Total cover does. Total concealment likely does as well. If partial cover and or concealment can is up for debate.

[Mechanize]

Sniping allows you to not move if you desire. Say, you are prone behind some small bush and have nowhere to 5ft step without stepping out if cover.

Also, I think you are extending the statement "It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging" to say something it doesn't.

It doesn't allow you to hide after an attack. It states that if you attempt to hide after an attack you suffer at least a -20 to the attempt. You still need to be able to actually hide.

I don't understand this though. if my rogue is in a dark nook, concealed and unspotted, then I am hidden. There is no reason to attempt to RE hide, no reason to move in order to hide as well. I fire an arrow and remain still, praying I wasn't seen because movement should be easier to spot. I get a -20 because its likely that the sound and the direction the arrow came from gave me away. I shouldn't have to move to "re hide" in the middle of already hiding in my nook. You are saying that Sniping is allowing this while normal attacking is forcing me to move to a new spot in order to attempt to re hide... in a dark concealed corner... This is sloppy ruling and creates awkward game play if you ask me. What is worse is if Sniping lets me rehide same spot after already being observed...


For example, two invisible people with see invisible fighting eachother infront of an unaware ogre would suffer a -20 to their hide checks for hding fron the ogre, but cannot hide from eachother. Once the ogre sees them, they are seen.

I get this, you're talking about hiding while be observed which is silly. But... They wouldn't be seen by the ogre's successful spot because they are still invisible, he would just know of their presence... right?


Same for two rogues fighting in a bush before ambushing a merchant caravan. This is a general rule about a penalty. You still need to have both concealment AND be unobserved to hide. Once spotted attacking does no allow them to hide somehow.

I understand this, and it makes sense. My statement was implying that my rogue was hidden first, then attacks. -20 to attempt to do so in a manner that I remain unseen. Not trying to hide again after a failed hide check.


Sniping allows you to bypass the need to break observation. Hide in plain sight (read these carefully, wordings on concealment and observation varries greatly) allows much the same thing, but suffers the same penalty of -20 even if it is more flexible.

Where you might be right, because the rules are so sketchy and poorly written, I don't really like or agree with this. Or I'm misunderstanding you. Sniping says it can only be done when successfully hidden. If I'm hidden, there is no observation. If I attack then you're saying that all attacks are an automatic unveiling of my character? :smallconfused:


Remember, each creature tracks visibility separately. Some may be able to see you while you remain hidden to others. You can attack one person from hiding and notnl reveal yourself to his companions even though your target sees you.

Do note, talk to your Dm and read the cover and concealment rules carefully. There is a not a solid statement about what counts as "observation" and how to break it. Total cover does. Total concealment likely does as well. If partial cover and or concealment can is up for debate.

This idea that interacting with a target makes them automatically see me and unable to hide is just not making any sense to me. I'm not talking about an invisibility spell that breaks if I attack. If I hit a human target (normal vision) from 300ft away in a dark alley way, how does he see me in total concealment? At best he knows the direction of the arrow. Which means I remain hidden, period, because of total concealment.

[Fouredged Sword]

The rules don't always make the most sense. Invisibility isn't undetectability (only a +20 to +40).

Hiding after a ranged attack ALWAYS takes a move action and uses the sniping rules (see the action paragraph on the srd. Are you within 10ft? Cannot snipe and cannot attempt to hide after shooting.

The -20 rule more broadly applies to melee attacks where you can take a swing at someone before moving away to hide.

Total cover or total concealment (usually, read "ask your dm") renders hide checks unneeded (with an exception for invisibility being only a large bonus.) The target treats you as hidden without you having to even attempt a hide check. If you cannot be seen, they cannot see you regardless. You can stand tall and full attack in platemail in total darkness or whiteout fog.

Invisibility is an odd duck. Total concealment normally makes hide checks unneeded. Invisibility is total concealment that doesn't do this. It is unclear if you can attack someone in melee while invisible without revealing yourself (you are still invisible, they just know where you are). Again we run into unclear rules for observation about "can I just rehide, I am invisible?" The question is if they know where you are, are they observing you? If they are, you cannot hide again. It is ubclear what you would have to do to break their observation. Ask your DM.

[ShurikVch]

There are two feats in a magazines:

Forest Ambusher (Dragon #315) - [ancestor] feat, required Nation: Shou Lung (Chu' Yuan), Jungle Lands; +3 to Hide in a forests, and the after-sniping penalty is just -15

Concealed Ambush (Dragon #339) - required Hide 10, Move Silently 10, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot; the after-sniping penalty is just -10

[Mechanize]

The rules don't always make the most sense. Invisibility isn't undetectability (only a +20 to +40).

Hiding after a ranged attack ALWAYS takes a move action and uses the sniping rules (see the action paragraph on the srd. Are you within 10ft? Cannot snipe and cannot attempt to hide after shooting.

The -20 rule more broadly applies to melee attacks where you can take a swing at someone before moving away to hide.

Total cover or total concealment (usually, read "ask your dm") renders hide checks unneeded (with an exception for invisibility being only a large bonus.) The target treats you as hidden without you having to even attempt a hide check. If you cannot be seen, they cannot see you regardless. You can stand tall and full attack in platemail in total darkness or whiteout fog.

Invisibility is an odd duck. Total concealment normally makes hide checks unneeded. Invisibility is total concealment that doesn't do this. It is unclear if you can attack someone in melee while invisible without revealing yourself (you are still invisible, they just know where you are). Again we run into unclear rules for observation about "can I just rehide, I am invisible?" The question is if they know where you are, are they observing you? If they are, you cannot hide again. It is ubclear what you would have to do to break their observation. Ask your DM.

I think I remember reading somewhere that a successful spot vs invisible only lets you be aware and know what square they are in. Doesn't mean you can attack and defend as normal. Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me me ask this question instead... What are the draw backs of re ruling Sniping to say this instead? "you can spend 1 standard action and 1 move action to peak and shoot from full cover with a -20 to remain hidden. During this time you are susceptible to readied actions if spotted during your attack"

Besides the obvious like "ranged characters become harder to hit." This game neuters physical combatants so much, I'm pretty sure some magic user or spell like ability wielding monster can easily solve that problem.

[Fouredged Sword]

Not a HUGE problem, and I have seen people use the squeezing rules to do just this, but nothing spending a full round to make a single attack is unlikely to be overpowered short of ubercharging.