RIse of the Tombraider, 80% off

[Avilan the Grey]

...Is it worth picking up?
I... feel like I should, but I bought the first one when it came out and have never even started it. Admittedly this game has much better reviews, but...
Every time I look at it I realize how little it probably will interest me (too much railroading, no character customization, unnecessarily grisly death scenes...). I was a huge fan of the original 2 or 3 games back in the day but let's face it, there wasn't much to compete with then.

[factotum]

I wouldn't say either this game or the first one is guilty of "railroading"--they're arguably a lot more open than the original Tomb Raider games were, which were a strictly linear sequence of missions. Grisly death scenes I agree with you, I think those are a bit over the top, but the games are not particularly difficult so you can avoid them for the most part. As for character customisation, well, not much you can do about that...the adventures of Steve Croft the body-building fireman are not really what the games are about. :smallsmile:

[warty goblin]

I'd happily say the 2012 Tomb Raider is one of the best action games ever made. The controls are tight, it's got excellent pacing in terms of switching between high octane action linear beats and more relaxed open bits. It's never open world, but a number of the levels are quite expensive, with some creative traversal options that unlock as you play. The story's not exactly super-brilliant, but it's solid action game fare, and Lara's a pretty believable sort of character. I played the whole thing through twice, and watched my then-girlfriend play it a third time, and it never lost its charm.

Rise is more of the same, 'cept with some more gameplay options and a much dumber story. The big open levels are a lot bigger and opener though, and a couple are absolutely gorgeous. I'd say it's a very good game, just not as good as the 2012 iteration. If you haven't played that one yet, play it first. If you like it, Rise is worth playing. If you don't, it isn't. But there's no sense in buying a game you don't know if you'll like when you already own the previous game and can find that out free.

[Avilan the Grey]

I know they're less on rails than the originals. I wouldn't mind so much if I at least could spend hours customizing gear and loadout for her. After all a game with a forced female protag is better than one with a forced male protag to me.

Speaking of character customization tho: A related topic...
Are there ANY other games than Saint's Row that allows character customization in a proper open world in an GTA style world? I'm not counting GTA V online because well... it's online. Therefore I won't play it.
I want to play some more but I HATE Saints Row IV since it only took the things I DIDN'T like from Saints Row III, and Saints Row II is such an awful port that it's unplayable.

[Winthur]

Speaking of character customization tho: A related topic...
Are there ANY other games than Saint's Row that allows character customization in a proper open world in an GTA style world? I'm not counting GTA V online because well... it's online. Therefore I won't play it.
I want to play some more but I HATE Saints Row IV since it only took the things I DIDN'T like from Saints Row III, and Saints Row II is such an awful port that it's unplayable.

SR2 becomes playable with the Gentlemen of the Row mod.
You could also try Monhun games, I guess.
As for the nu-Tomb Raider, I kinda see them as story-based on-the-rails action games whereas the original TRs were freeform puzzle platformers with some action bits to them. Don't think they're comparable to the originals except for maybe the differences in Lara's characterization.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I would highly recommend them. The writing is fantastic, and the actor who plays Lara is very very good, she's one of the most captivating and believable main characters in modern gaming. Gameplay is solid too. First one doesn't have as many "tomb" puzzles as you would like, but the second one has more, and they're all fantastic and different and interesting.

[Ebon_Drake]

Rise of the Tomb Raider is very much a sequel to the first game. You can probably muddle through it well enough without having played Tomb Raider 2012, but a fair bit of the backstory and supporting characters probably won't make a great deal of sense. Mind you, the plot was a little too similar to the first game in my opinion so possibly not playing the previous game might help your impression of the story...

Tonally, I found it a lighter and softer game than its predecessor. It reduced a lot of the grindhouse horror aspects and I don't think it seemed as bloody or that the cutscene deaths were as gory. I'd possibly consider it closer in tone to the Core games or Anniversary/Underworld than to TR2012. I also don't think it was quite so combat-heavy, which was one thing I didn't like about the previous game.

I wouldn't say it's completely without customisation options. It has a simple levelling system (although you'll probably have pretty much all skills unlocked by the end), you get to acquire various outfits that have some different stat effects and unless you grind excessively you won't be able to fully upgrade every weapon, so you have to choose which ones to focus on. It's fairly shallow, but it's there and is slightly more extensive than TR2012.

I'm surprised to hear that Rise of the Tomb Raider got significantly better reviews than TR2012, since that game wasn't exactly badly received. I'd personally consider TR2012 to be a better game overall and would recommend playing that first if you already own it. It's not like Rise won't be on sale again at some point!

[Avilan the Grey]

I would highly recommend them. The writing is fantastic, and the actor who plays Lara is very very good, she's one of the most captivating and believable main characters in modern gaming. Gameplay is solid too. First one doesn't have as many "tomb" puzzles as you would like, but the second one has more, and they're all fantastic and different and interesting.

Oh I have watched some random let's plays.
The actress is amazing. The environments are amazing. But for me it seems lacking. The idea of climbing / puzzle solving is not as alluring as it used to be when I was 15. Looking at her tight pants aren't enough of a bonus to the lack of features I want in games these days.
I must say that I guess this is the closest to Horizon Zero Dawn I can ever play, and I really want to play that. For some reason though it seems virtually identical but a bigger world.

[warty goblin]

Oh I have watched some random let's plays.
The actress is amazing. The environments are amazing. But for me it seems lacking. The idea of climbing / puzzle solving is not as alluring as it used to be when I was 15. Looking at her tight pants aren't enough of a bonus to the lack of features I want in games these days.
I must say that I guess this is the closest to Horizon Zero Dawn I can ever play, and I really want to play that. For some reason though it seems virtually identical but a bigger world.

So play the one you already own and see if you like it?

[Avilan the Grey]

So play the one you already own and see if you like it?

You mean using logic? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though I have decided not to get it. What I have seen of both games... Admittedly there are fewer QT events in the second as far as I know, but the first one seems to be like 90% QT events that give you a VERY short time to react.

Now... what to get instead...

[GolemsVoice]

Shame, I'd have recommended you get it. Aside from what the others said, it also features (pseudo)-byzantine architecture and art, which is a welcome break from Egyptian tombs or jungle temples, since you see this style quite rarely in games.

[factotum]

but the first one seems to be like 90% QT events that give you a VERY short time to react.


That's definitely not the case? I can only remember maybe half a dozen "interactive cutscene" type things where you have to react to a QTE partway through or else die. Most of the game is better than that.

(I just did a search and found a Youtube video which claimed to be of all the death scenes from the game. It's just over four minutes long. According to my Steam stats I have around 12 hours played in the game, so I must have been watching a lot of repeated death animations if 90% of that was QTEs :smallsmile:).

[Avilan the Grey]

I do think my biggest reason to hesitate about this is twofold:

1. I prefer non-linear games and a big part of that is simply because I like to kit out my characters and then bask in their coolness for a while with that new gear. This seems to be lacking here just like in the old games: If you equip something new you're just moving on to the next thing. That's why I love open world games.

2. You can't get Lara to do handstands when climbing up on a ledge anymore.

...um I mean

2. I know I am putting too much stock in reviews, but the new games seems too... serious. There is virtually no humor in them whatsoever. Not even the second game, where Lara is supposedly a more experienced adventurer, has an quips or jokes. It's all deadly and deathly serious at all times.

[factotum]

That is actually a valid complaint: Lara is all serious all the time in the new games, even when she's not in the middle of a fight or getting choked by Random Mook #33. Odd really, considering they were written by Rhianna Pratchett...you'd think she'd have learned a thing or two about humour from her dad (RIP).

[Avilan the Grey]

That is actually a valid complaint: Lara is all serious all the time in the new games, even when she's not in the middle of a fight or getting choked by Random Mook #33. Odd really, considering they were written by Rhianna Pratchett...you'd think she'd have learned a thing or two about humour from her dad (RIP).

The old Lara was well. a badass. With humor. This new version is (I have watched a few hours now as let's plays) basically a slightly panicked / totally panicked constantly wounded / frozen desperate young woman.
Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't Tomb Raider. I thought the whole "Desperately clinging to life while running for her life / sneaking for her life would be over by game #2. Apparently not. :smallannoyed:

[Ebon_Drake]

You mean using logic? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though I have decided not to get it. What I have seen of both games... Admittedly there are fewer QT events in the second as far as I know, but the first one seems to be like 90% QT events that give you a VERY short time to react.

Now... what to get instead...

I don't think there are actually any quicktime events in Rise of the Tomb Raider, at least in the hard "press X to not die" sense. I spent a good half of the game being primed for a QTE whenever a cutscene was playing because the previous game (and indeed the previous Crystal Dynamics Tomb Raider games) used them so much, but can't recall one ever coming up even in sequences that seemed set for one.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't think there are actually any quicktime events in Rise of the Tomb Raider, at least in the hard "press X to not die" sense. I spent a good half of the game being primed for a QTE whenever a cutscene was playing because the previous game (and indeed the previous Crystal Dynamics Tomb Raider games) used them so much, but can't recall one ever coming up even in sequences that seemed set for one.

Hmm. I did decide to buy it after all.
Speaking of, I did also buy Underworld today. I actually never played it and it is right now $1 on Steam.

Edit:
Isn't it fun how many people online refer to the 2013 reboot as "the original"?
I know I'm old but to me it just reminds me of the Leela quote from Futurama about Casa Blanca.

[Morty]

I mean, Lara mows down dozens of people like a one-woman army with a grudge in both games, so I'm not sure if somewhat more realistic reactions to the constant threat of death are that big of a deal.

[Avilan the Grey]

I mean, Lara mows down dozens of people like a one-woman army with a grudge in both games, so I'm not sure if somewhat more realistic reactions to the constant threat of death are that big of a deal.

It's just annoying.

[factotum]

I thought the whole "Desperately clinging to life while running for her life / sneaking for her life would be over by game #2. Apparently not. :smallannoyed:

Yes, that is a slightly annoying aspect of the second game. The first game was all about how Lara got to be a badass, you expect it to have some introspection, but by the second game you expect her to complain a little less and just get on with the job. However, the sneaking and running is kind of part of the reboot gameplay, so I guess they couldn't change it too massively, and it's actually very fun to play, you really should try it--watching an interactive medium like a game can never truly give you the full impression of what it's like to actually play it and be controlling the main character.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yes, that is a slightly annoying aspect of the second game. The first game was all about how Lara got to be a badass, you expect it to have some introspection, but by the second game you expect her to complain a little less and just get on with the job. However, the sneaking and running is kind of part of the reboot gameplay, so I guess they couldn't change it too massively, and it's actually very fun to play, you really should try it--watching an interactive medium like a game can never truly give you the full impression of what it's like to actually play it and be controlling the main character.

Boy I wish Horizon ZD was on Steam. It's the first game EVER I have really wanted to buy a console to be able to play.
It's somewhat similar to Tomb Raider, but with a cooler protagonist, deeper story, bigger world and ROBOT DINOSAURS.
Also, Aloy is far more badass than "New!Lara. Despite being younger.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I convinced my father to get a PS4 just for HZD when I was over last, it was so worth it. But Tomb Raider is probably the closest thing.

[Avilan the Grey]

HMmm
I might have to try to get a refund for these...

Let's put it this way: People who thought QTEs should exist in games at all should be kicked in the crotch non stop for 48 hours. Developers who put QTEs in games should be pushed down a river with sharp poles in them.

Basically I guess i should have done more research but I didn't realize the first game is like 50% QTEs, and very bad ones at that.

[warty goblin]

HMmm
I might have to try to get a refund for these...

Let's put it this way: People who thought QTEs should exist in games at all should be kicked in the crotch non stop for 48 hours. Developers who put QTEs in games should be pushed down a river with sharp poles in them.

Basically I guess i should have done more research but I didn't realize the first game is like 50% QTEs, and very bad ones at that.

It really, really isn't. They're a bit thick on the ground at the beginning, but they steadily get replaced by the game's expanding set of normal gameplay verbs. And pretty much all of them use the same button - nearly always Y on a 360 controller IIRC. Rise has even fewer.

[Avilan the Grey]

It really, really isn't. They're a bit thick on the ground at the beginning, but they steadily get replaced by the game's expanding set of normal gameplay verbs. And pretty much all of them use the same button - nearly always Y on a 360 controller IIRC. Rise has even fewer.

Yeah, I hear it's "thematically on purpose", to demonstrate how not in control she is in the beginning. Before she turns into a psychopath.*
I also hear a LOT Of people who never got past that part because it sucked so much. Especially on PC (which what I play it on. And no, I do not own a controller of any kind nor will I buy one for any game).

The very fact that they chose to put in QTEs at all says to me they:
A) Hate their players and wants to troll them
B) Actually think QTEs are a good idea (which nobody after 1983** should even consider thinking)
C) Are lazy as hell
D) All of the above

I am actually seriously thinking about paying $2 for a trainer that auto-solves all QTE events.

*This is not a dig at the new games; she has always been one. Gunning down completely innocent security guards in art museums and whatnot just because they're there.

**https://i.blogs.es/c3caa5/dargonslair/1366_2000.jpg

[LansXero]

I also hear a LOT Of people who never got past that part because it sucked so much. Especially on PC (which what I play it on. And no, I do not own a controller of any kind nor will I buy one for any game).

But you own the 2012 one, right? So why not play that one instead of hearing / watching about it? Or if you did, then Im sorry but it seemed like you hadnt

[warty goblin]

Yeah, I hear it's "thematically on purpose", to demonstrate how not in control she is in the beginning. Before she turns into a psychopath.*
I also hear a LOT Of people who never got past that part because it sucked so much. Especially on PC (which what I play it on. And no, I do not own a controller of any kind nor will I buy one for any game).

The very fact that they chose to put in QTEs at all says to me they:
A) Hate their players and wants to troll them
B) Actually think QTEs are a good idea (which nobody after 1983** should even consider thinking)
C) Are lazy as hell
D) All of the above

I am actually seriously thinking about paying $2 for a trainer that auto-solves all QTE events.

*This is not a dig at the new games; she has always been one. Gunning down completely innocent security guards in art museums and whatnot just because they're there.

**https://i.blogs.es/c3caa5/dargonslair/1366_2000.jpg

Apparently I'm some sort of gaming heretic, because I actually liked the QTEs. They keep the cutscenes intense, most of them aren't that hard, and failing them occasionally and getting one of those unpleasant death scenes reinforces the stakes quite nicely.

Also, I highly recommend buying a controller. They're like $20, and absolute gobs of games are way better with them. I'd easily say in terms of raw enjoyment reaped, I'd put my controller ahead of a lot of games, simply because it has improved my experience in dozens of titles.

[The Glyphstone]

Hmm. I did decide to buy it after all.
Speaking of, I did also buy Underworld today. I actually never played it and it is right now $1 on Steam.

Edit:
Isn't it fun how many people online refer to the 2013 reboot as "the original"?
I know I'm old but to me it just reminds me of the Leela quote from Futurama about Casa Blanca.

I wonder if the upcoming Vikander-led film reboot will help this phenomenon, since it's sort of soft-rebooting the Jolie continuity in the same way.

[factotum]

Especially on PC (which what I play it on. And no, I do not own a controller of any kind nor will I buy one for any game).

Out of interest, why are you so against the idea of using a controller in a PC game? 20 years ago the huge advantage the PC had was the wide range of controllers you could use, with some games not even starting up unless you had a joystick plugged in--when did it become accepted wisdom that a game isn't a proper PC game unless it can be played with keyboard and mouse?

[Avilan the Grey]

Out of interest, why are you so against the idea of using a controller in a PC game? 20 years ago the huge advantage the PC had was the wide range of controllers you could use, with some games not even starting up unless you had a joystick plugged in--when did it become accepted wisdom that a game isn't a proper PC game unless it can be played with keyboard and mouse?

Two reasons:

1. It costs money to buy one
2. 99% of the games i play are played better with keyboard and mouse (RPGs, FPS, TPS, Strategy...) So back to point 1.

As for 20 years ago... Basically the only two genres that benefited from a joystick was vehicle games (flight sims and racing games) and Fighting games. There were no good fighting games on PC, and I was driving well enough with the keyboard.

[Avilan the Grey]

...

OKay, I am uninstalling the first Tomb Raider. I only got as far as deer hunting, but it is just HORRIBLE:
Controls SUCK.

Lara is too dumb to deserve to survive, since she needs my help to understand to grab ledges with both hands.
I feel completely disconnected from the game, there is zero responsiveness. It's the worst feeling I have had on a game ever. It is clearly a crappy console port meant to be used with a controller, but on top of that it just feels... as I said... disconnected. Comparing it with Mass Effect, another third person game... That feels awesome. I guess it's because it's 100% railroaded. I am basically sitting watching her run, until suddenly she needs my help because... reasons.

And again... Why not just make the whole intro sequence a cutscene? It would be 1000 times better with just a 10 minute cutscene than with the QTEs.

However, the absolutely worst is the motion sickness. I have never been "sea sick" from any game in my life, and I started playing when Pac Man just came out. The first time.
So, I will TRY to get a refund for this, with the reasoning that yes, I bought it 2015, but never started it until today... So I had no idea I would get seasick from this.
Before starting this i thought the commens in forums about Lara "being a drunk college girl"... was derogatory. But yes that's what it is. It feels like she's completely ****faced 100% of the time. And that makes me throw up in my mouth.

SO... Well. This sucks.

[Avilan the Grey]

I didn't get the refund for TR, which i wasn't really expecting.
I did get it (of course) for RoTR, but that was well within their normal policy. For those wondering, I didn't get as motion sick from that game, and it was far more responsive in controls... But i found out that it's just impossible to map all those controls properly to a left handed configuration on keyboard and mouse, which made it very frustrating to play. :smalleek::smallmad:

Since I don't have the budget or will to buy a controller, I opted for a refund instead. So now I have £17 in my Steam wallet to buy... something with.

[factotum]

Since I don't have the budget or will to buy a controller, I opted for a refund instead. So now I have £17 in my Steam wallet to buy... something with.

How about a controller? :smallsmile: Then you wouldn't have this issue in future.

[Avilan the Grey]

How about a controller? :smallsmile: Then you wouldn't have this issue in future.

Smartass.

:smallbiggrin:

I do find it a bit sad that I gave up on RoTR; it was too frustrating but it was 4 or 5 times better than the first one. Seriously, the camera movement in the first one almost made me throw up several times. I have never played a 3rd person game where the screen tilts as the person moves. The closest I've been is when Shepard is really drunk. But that's as a joke and lasts for seconds.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

It's a recent thing with these adventure-games. Uncharted does a similar thing, where the camera moves dramatically to match the action. It's a cinematic effect.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's a recent thing with these adventure-games. Uncharted does a similar thing, where the camera moves dramatically to match the action. It's a cinematic effect.

Which they apparently scrapped in the sequel. It is easy to see why; googling "Motion Sickness" and "Tomb Raider" and you get hundred of hits from forum posts from all over.