Sniping in Pathfinder?

[Palanan]

My next game session is tomorrow night, and I need a couple of snipers for an enemy contingent.

I don’t have much experience with snipers in Pathfinder, and I’m not sure what feats or archetypes are best for this. There’s a rogue archetype named Sniper, which is a good start, but there doesn’t seem to be much to it.

The enemy group is primarily elven, although I can go with half-elf, skinwalker, or Medium-sized fey if that would give an advantage. I’m open to all official 3.5 and Paizo content, but I’m primarily interested in Pathfinder material. Is there enough in Pathfinder to put together a decent sniping build?

[Florian]

Sniping is covered by the Stealth skill and imparts a -20 modifier to the check to stay hidden after an attack.

Slayer with the Sniper archetype and Terrain Mastery/Camouflage trick is actually pretty good at this, and a terror at around level 12, with the right feat and advanced tricks. Next best thing would be a plain Ranger.

[stack]

Do you want to snipe as in a stealthy ranged character or snipe as in long range, single shot? The latter is hard with Paizo only content. The vital strike line is a start, but will leave something to be desired. Ranged combat generally revolves more around tossing out as many attacks as possible. Not sure if 3.5 has anything; wouldn't surprise me.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Florian
Slayer with the Sniper archetype and Terrain Mastery/Camouflage trick is actually pretty good at this, and a terror at around level 12, with the right feat and advanced tricks. Next best thing would be a plain Ranger.

Aha, thanks—I didn’t realize there was another Sniper archetype for the slayer. That does look handy.

What is “the right feat” that you mentioned? And what other feats would work well here?

[QuadraticGish]

I'm not sure if want to scare your PCs or try to seriously endanger them. Anyway, spoiler contains stuff related to that if you plan on a fight breaking and you plan on it being the latter case. Otherwise, I think Florian has it handled with just using the Snipe action. I'd like to add try putting on the Distance enhancement to double the bow range.

(Note that this can probably be too much to unprepared PCs, so I wouldn't recommend going full out like this, but it's here for reference and ideas. Or if your PCs are that good.)The big thing with sniping is that it really just flatout works better to strike with iterative attacks. The single attack for massive damage feat would be the Vital Strike chain, but it does fall off due to only apply strength once and doing overall less damage compared to Rapid+Manyshot bows IIRC. Anyway, You could look at Orc Hornbows and have the snipers be Half-orcs as they could wield it without any extra feats. It acts like composite bow so gold can be spent on it to add str to damage. It also happens to be a good option for Vital Strike. If you want more distance, grab a heavy crossbow and make sure to pick up the Crossbow Mastery feat. I'm not sure how strong these snipers are supposed to be, but for enchantments, you probably want distance to double how far out you can hit. After that, I'm not sure what to look out for.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by stack
Do you want to snipe as in a stealthy ranged character or snipe as in long range, single shot?

Honestly, I was thinking long range and stealth together.


Originally Posted by stack
Not sure if 3.5 has anything; wouldn't surprise me.

Races of the Wild has Able Sniper and Woodland Archer, which I may mix into the build if there’s room (and if they’re compatible). I was hoping that Pathfinder would have something similar.


Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
You could look at Orc Hornbows and have the snipers be Half-orcs….

Half-orcs wouldn’t be a good fit for this team, but I’ll check into the hornbow.

[Florian]

What is “the right feat” that you mentioned? And what other feats would work well here?

Silent Kill, which requires the Assassinate trick. This one is actually a bit problematic because it forces the "endless surprise round" situation and reality will simply implode of you happen to have a foresight diviner around. Don't use it against player character. Made the mistake of introducing an Android Slayer with a high-powered X-Laser in Iron Gods and four headshots later, we soberly agreed on doing a retcon...

[legomaster00156]

Notably, if you are using an Unchained Rogue or taking the Signature Skill (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/signature-skill-general/) feat, you can gain the skill unlock for Stealth, which halves the Stealth penalty for sniping.

[Firest Kathon]

Silent Kill, which requires the Assassinate trick. This one is actually a bit problematic because it forces the "endless surprise round" situation and reality will simply implode of you happen to have a foresight diviner around. Don't use it against player character. Made the mistake of introducing an Android Slayer with a high-powered X-Laser in Iron Gods and four headshots later, we soberly agreed on doing a retcon...
I'm curious, what do you mean by "endless surprise round"? I checked the feats, and while powerful I am surprised that it was able to cause a TPK for a group I would estimate level 9 at least (CR10 enemy in advantaged situation would make this a CR11 encounter).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I'm curious, what do you mean by "endless surprise round"? I checked the feats, and while powerful I am surprised that it was able to cause a TPK for a group I would estimate level 9 at least (CR10 enemy in advantaged situation would make this a CR11 encounter).

I imagine their DM ruled that since the characters explicitly didn’t know where the attack was coming from, the sniper got to keep taking surprise rounds until someone succeeded. This isn’t how surprise rounds actually work, to my knowledge

[Psyren]

I imagine their DM ruled that since the characters explicitly didn’t know where the attack was coming from, the sniper got to keep taking surprise rounds until someone succeeded. This isn’t how surprise rounds actually work, to my knowledge

It isn't - the other characters do realize they're in combat after the first one and get to act. Problem is, without knowing where the shots are coming from, their only real option is likely to flee.

[Florian]

I'm curious, what do you mean by "endless surprise round"? I checked the feats, and while powerful I am surprised that it was able to cause a TPK for a group I would estimate level 9 at least (CR10 enemy in advantaged situation would make this a CR11 encounter).

That´s a slight problem with the Slayer class and the specific wording of the feat: For assassinate to work, you must be aware of the target, but they not of you, but you can activate the full suite of Studied Target, Stalker and Quarry beforehand, already starting with a hefty bonus to assassinate DC and damage. The thing with the feat is, that you're explicitly not identified as the assailant, at which point combat ends, as long as the Slayer is the only attacker, no other targets are present and you don't proceed with a normal attack routine, so keeping the conditions for assassinate. Rinse and repeat in quick succession.

[georgie_leech]

That´s a slight problem with the Slayer class and the specific wording of the feat: For assassinate to work, you must be aware of the target, but they not of you, but you can activate the full suite of Studied Target, Stalker and Quarry beforehand, already starting with a hefty bonus to assassinate DC and damage. The thing with the feat is, that you're explicitly not identified as the assailant, at which point combat ends, as long as the Slayer is the only attacker, no other targets are present and you don't proceed with a normal attack routine, so keeping the conditions for assassinate. Rinse and repeat in quick succession.

Source on combat ends when the players are no longer aware of any targets?

[Florian]

Source on combat ends when the players are no longer aware of any targets?

No combat means not using combat rules, same as with traps, haunts and similar features. That is the weak spot of a system that wants to go for "heroic combat", but also offers the option of a knife in the dark.

[georgie_leech]

No combat means not using combat rules, same as with traps, haunts and similar features. That is the weak spot of a system that wants to go for "heroic combat", but also offers the option of a knife in the dark.

Right. I'm not seeing the part where this says no combat. Unless you want to argue an invisible something or other that successfully hides from the party immediately ends combat, giving it another surprise round? Again, an actual source would be appreciated; a rules citation.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

That´s a slight problem with the Slayer class and the specific wording of the feat: For assassinate to work, you must be aware of the target, but they not of you, but you can activate the full suite of Studied Target, Stalker and Quarry beforehand, already starting with a hefty bonus to assassinate DC and damage. The thing with the feat is, that you're explicitly not identified as the assailant, at which point combat ends, as long as the Slayer is the only attacker, no other targets are present and you don't proceed with a normal attack routine, so keeping the conditions for assassinate. Rinse and repeat in quick succession.

Sure, if you’re playing a broken video game run by a computer rather than a ttrpg with a DM possessed of basic sense. Characters know there’s a threat, so they can react, so the surprise round’s over and they’re free to seek cover and try finding the sniper

[Florian]

Sure, if you’re playing a broken video game run by a computer rather than a ttrpg with a DM possessed of basic sense. Characters know there’s a threat, so they can react, so the surprise round’s over and they’re free to seek cover and try finding the sniper

Hm, yes, this is exactly why we have feats, class features and spells that override "basic sense", because it´s a fantasy world and we want really fantastic things. Now we talk about something that should give players an "assassins creed" vibe, but also when exactly that is used against players.

[SangoProduction]

Honestly, I was thinking long range and stealth together.

Then boy do I have the pitch for you. In Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-might), there are spheres (which can be roughly thought of as groupings of thematically similar feats), one of which is the Sniper sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sniper). While it is one of the more...underwhelming spheres, it does possess Star Scraper (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sniper#toc27), which increases the range increment to one mile, meaning you could fire up to 5 miles away. Further, since you increased the range increment, you can make a touch attack at that range.

Throw in the Scout sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/scout)(adds 5 ranks to Stealth per talent taken), and Active Camouflage (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/scout#toc2), for half again the value of your ranks, and reduce sniping penalty by 10. Then take Wind Reader (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/scout#toc25) to reduce your range increment penalties.

Deadly Strike (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/scout#toc3) can be of moderate use, adding +1 damage per HD, when they are unaware of you. You know? Like a really, really bad version of sneak attack, but for a feat, or gain actual Sneak Attack through use of Fencing (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing)sphere and Skewer (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc16).

[Florian]

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[SangoProduction]

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Wow. How condescending and and unnecessary. Thanks for adding to the conversation. People want to do something in Pathfinder, and are given answers.

[Florian]

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[johnbragg]

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The Spheres of Power/Might "cultists" fit the Spanish usage of the word, even if they might be right (I'm sure I will eventually succumb to their entreaties and buy the PDFs and find out for myself), but it's way overboard to say "molested."

I know OP said "3.5/Paizo official sources", but Dreamscarred Press is well-enough regarded that it's sort of comparable to using PAthfinder content in a 3.5 game. It's not official, but it's playtested by one of the best 3PPs out there, so make a decision.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SangoProduction
Then boy do I have the pitch for you. In Spheres of Might....

Thanks, but I’m only using first-party Pathfinder material.


Originally Posted by Florian
Could we, somehow, create something like a fund that everyone wanting to talk about "Spheres" or "psi" should donate a dollar to before molesting other people?

This is completely unnecessary and unhelpful, and also a little ridiculous.

Beyond that, the verb you’re using has extremely strong negative connotations in English which I don’t think you’re aware of.


Originally Posted by Florian
…people have questions about Pathfinder and want answers, but it´s extremely annoying to have….

…a thread suddenly dragged into territory the OP never intended or asked for.

Florian, I’ve always appreciated your build suggestions and your knowledge of Pathfinder options, but these last few comments aren’t helping me or the thread. I still have questions about sniping, and I’d like to keep it on-topic.


Originally Posted by johnbragg
It's not official, but it's playtested by one of the best 3PPs out there, so make a decision.

I’m not sure who that last imperative was directed at, but the tone doesn’t help. I noted in the OP that I’m only using official 3.5 and Pathfinder material, and that decision won’t change.

[johnbragg]

I’m not sure who that last imperative was directed at, but the tone doesn’t help. I noted in the OP that I’m only using official 3.5 and Pathfinder material, and that decision won’t change.

Sorry about the tone. You've decided "No" and that's fine, just like if someone was running a 3.5 game and someone suggested Unchained Rogue you could say "No."

What levels are you talking about? (No sense coming up with 10-15 level builds if the party is level 5)

[Palanan]

Right now I’m looking for low-level builds, third or fourth level at most. The party is about to reach third level, and they do have several NPC allies, some of which are more reliable than others.

For the enemy party, I’m using primarily elves, with the occasional half-elf or other variant. Almost all of them will be archers, but I’d like one or two dedicated snipers.

[johnbragg]

Right now I’m looking for low-level builds, third or fourth level at most. The party is about to reach third level, and they do have several NPC allies, some of which are more reliable than others.

For the enemy party, I’m using primarily elves, with the occasional half-elf or other variant. Almost all of them will be archers, but I’d like one or two dedicated snipers.

Then what I'd probably do to torment my PCs would be just to have them use REALLY good tactics. Accept the reality of the action economy, and have them organize them around their campfire into A and B shifts. In any given round, A shift is stealthing to new cover and B shift is popping up and firing or vice versa.

(Shoot from forest cover (sneak attack), Hide at -20 in at least partial cover. Next round, move half your movement with a new Stealth check to a new firing position. Third round, repeat round 1)

Builds, I'd keep it basic. Fighter 1/Rogue 1. Feats: Point Blank Shot, pick 2 from
Precise Shot, Stealthy, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot.

Not fancy, but should be effective until the party closes with them in melee.

[Daefos]

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[SangoProduction]

OK. Let's just ignore the post. It's derailing the conversation.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: I'm not sure why this thread got into real world religious references, but cut it out.

[redwizard007]

Sheriff: I'm not sure why this thread got into real world religious references, but cut it out.

Wow! Late to the party apparently.

At the levels you are dealing with, the simple tricks may be best. Sprinkle a couple wizards, or multi-class wizards, into the mix and add True strike. From range, that can be a SOB. Other than that, ranger or ranged fighter builds are pretty straight forward. So are rogue or scout. I'd recommend a mix of several of these.

Use wiz/ranger to open from extreme range. Rogues or Scouts are hidden closer with readied actions to sneak attack and fall back after striking, either running or hiding to snipe again while supported by wiz/rangers. Adding a few wilderness appropriate traps would fit thematically, slow down the PCs and allow more sniping, and/or allow a tactical withdrawal. Throwing in a few pesky animals, perhaps druid/ranger influenced, to further complicate matters could make this downright deadly.