Warshaper: entry via touchstone and sustained use via Transmutation effects

[Jowgen]

This thread is to get views about how RAW legal people consider the following ways to get more value out of Warshaper.

SECTION 1: Easy entry via the Touchstone feat

You can qualify to become a Warshaper simply by having the shapechanger subtype. Via the Touchstone feat (Sandstorm, accessible as soon as you can burn 250 gp and 10 exp on a touchstone key item) and a visit to the beastlands, you can gain the higher order ability of the Were Glade (Planar Handbook). It does some stuff, but the important one is this.


Once you’ve made your first visit to the Were Glade, you permanently retain the shapechanger subtype, even if you’ve exhausted all your uses of the higher-order ability

Once get this benefit you can then either attune to a different touchstone or retrain the feat all together. The shapechanger subtype is explicitly permanent, so I don't see a reason why you wouldn't retain it and thus qualify for Warshaper.

Anyone see an issue with this?

SECTION 2: Keeping the Class-features permanently active via cheap effects that change "form"

After Warshaper is entered, it's class abilities operate only if the following condition is met:


The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own (which for doppelganger
and phasm warshapers is most of the time).
The main question is what the definition of a "form other than your own" is. It seems the only definitive qualifier is that it needs to be a physical change as the result of an effect (whether spell, inherent ability or other), so even a partial/cosmetic change of shape should suffice. The effect may or may not need to be reversible, but the existence of Break Enchantment and Resurgence makes that a very broad restriction.

The following is a list of effects that may qualify, updated with suggestions from the thread.

Original List:

- Changeling Minor Shapechange (generally agreed to be the gold standard)
- Any spell of the Polymorph Subschool (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5), i.e. anything that references Alter Self or a spell that references it, particularly PAO
- Mineralize Warrior: Instantaneous Transmutation that infuses a creature's body with earth elemental spirit and enough minerals to give them "the look of a petrified creature" (granting the Mineral Warrior template).
- Nar Fiendbond: Same deal as Mineral Warrior, but with Half-Fiend.
- Mantle of the Icy Soul: Changes Hair/skin and gives cold subtype, but not instantaneous anymore with the SC update.
- Mantle of the Fiery Spirit: Didn't get updated like Icy Soul, but does not specify physical change, so that is down as to whether adding the fire subtype itself can be proven to result in physical change.
- Embrace the Dark Chaos: Makes you "look more fiendish".
- Reincarnate: Veeery tenuous case, as you have to argue that the "entirely new adult body" is not "your own form".
- Warp Touch: Magical disease that physically warps the victim in a random way.
- Vestige Signs: Some vestiges, when bound, cause actual real physical alterations to the body.
- Teeth of Dhalver Nar: Access the signs of the vestiges above with a magic item.

New possibilities suggested in the course of Thread:
- Goliath's mountain rage: Changes creature size, arguably just as justified as Wildshape or Changeling Shapechange.
- Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis: Grants Dark Creature template, changing hair/skin tone and reducing weight "as if part of their very substance was mere shadow stuff".
- The Warshapers own Morphic Weapons: The warshaper can alter it's own body to grow natural weapons, which are not stated to disappear when the form changing effect that allowed the change ends, so they are arguably self-sustaining.
- Soulmends: Some soulmends may grant actual physical changes (questioned by poster)
- The Hunger Domain granted power: Gives a bite attack (questioned by poster)
- Axiomatic Creature spell (same deal as Nar Fiendbond)
- Planar Familiar spell (if you can get it applied somehow)

Any suggestions for other options (ideally not class abilities, as the point is to do this with minimal resource investment) are welcome, as are arguments for/against any of the options listed here.

[daremetoidareyo]

You committing to casters?

Twisted lord's twisted form should work and it doesn't take any feats to get into.

Also swanmay if you want two crappy feats and you go in as a female gnome totemist or ranger.

primeval if you want 3 crappy feats.

Berserk is a good option. Choose the sperm whale option because it's the best.

Of course, there is also bear warrior.

[Jowgen]

You committing to casters?

The opposite actually, looking into this to make the class more accessible to mundanes, gishes and really anything that doesn't come with inbuilt shapechanging.

[Zaq]

This doesn’t help with Warshaper, but I did a little poking around to see what inherent effects having the Shapechanger subtype gives you, and apparently it’ll give you proficiency with “shields” if you’re proficient with “any type of armor.” No mention of an exception for weird shields (tower, extreme, dwarven buckler-axe, etc.). (Also, you get proficiency with simple weapons and natural weapons, which I guess could technically be relevant for a Wizard or a hyper-RAW Monk?)

With the 3.5 milieu being what it is, there are relatively few cases where you’ll want a shield but end up gaining proficiency by means of the Shapechanger subtype, but you never know when obscure minutiae like this can be used or abused.

Back on topic, do size-changing effects count as “not your own form”? That’s a bit of a stretch, but if it works, there’s Mountain Rage for goliaths, or that shrinking ring in Lords of Madness for anyone who likes being small. (And if magic items count, we can make a similarly tenuous case for the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis in ToM.)

I forget, if you don’t care about casting spells, does a one-level dip in Shapeshift Druid have many significant downsides for a beatstick who isn’t, like, a Marshal or someone else responsible for barking orders in combat? That seems like a relatively cheap way to get an at-will “form that is not your own.”

[daremetoidareyo]

This doesn’t help with Warshaper, but I did a little poking around to see what inherent effects having the Shapechanger subtype gives you, and apparently it’ll give you proficiency with “shields” if you’re proficient with “any type of armor.” No mention of an exception for weird shields (tower, extreme, dwarven buckler-axe, etc.). (Also, you get proficiency with simple weapons and natural weapons, which I guess could technically be relevant for a Wizard or a hyper-RAW Monk?)

With the 3.5 milieu being what it is, there are relatively few cases where you’ll want a shield but end up gaining proficiency by means of the Shapechanger subtype, but you never know when obscure minutiae like this can be used or abused.

Back on topic, do size-changing effects count as “not your own form”? That’s a bit of a stretch, but if it works, there’s Mountain Rage for goliaths, or that shrinking ring in Lords of Madness for anyone who likes being small. (And if magic items count, we can make a similarly tenuous case for the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis in ToM.)

I forget, if you don’t care about casting spells, does a one-level dip in Shapeshift Druid have many significant downsides for a beatstick who isn’t, like, a Marshal or someone else responsible for barking orders in combat? That seems like a relatively cheap way to get an at-will “form that is not your own.”

Gnome battle cloak from races of stone appears to have a stackable + 4 bonus to disarm checks, and I believe warshaper can give you unlimited arms...

[Zaq]

Gnome battle cloak from races of stone appears to have a stackable + 4 bonus to disarm checks, and I believe warshaper can give you unlimited arms...

Hmm, that might be interesting. I'd be wary of saying that it stacks with itself, though, and I believe that RAI would be that you have to use the battle cloak as your "weapon" with which you are disarming someone (so you couldn't stack it with the bonus for using something like a flail, let alone the +4 for using a two-handed weapon unless you use shenanigans to make the battle cloak count as being two-handed somehow). I agree that RAW is a little ambiguous, though. Not as ambiguous as a lot of the dysfunctional rules that have been found, but there's a little bit there.

Back to the discussion of triggering Warshaper—I forgot that being in Shapeshift form from Shapeshift Druid prevents you from using (most? all?) equipment, which is a bit of a downside for a beatstick who isn't simply going for an arbitrarily large number of natural weapons. There's always Thrall of Juiblex 4 or Slime Lord 5, but those are nontrivial investments.

[Jowgen]

Something that just occurred to me: the Warshaper's own ability to grow natural weapons might also qualify, allowing one to activate the class features with some temporary shapechanging effect and then sustain them indefinitely by just not dismissing the natural weapon(s) morphed.

[Zaq]

Something that just occurred to me: the Warshaper's own ability to grow natural weapons might also qualify, allowing one to activate the class features with some temporary shapechanging effect and then sustain them indefinitely by just not dismissing the natural weapon(s) morphed.

That seems suspect to me. If we allow "has a natural weapon that one's base race doesn't normally have" to qualify, then there's a lot of ways to qualify. Like Shape Soulmeld for the Claws of the Wyrm (no bind required), or using the nice hours/level PsyWar buffs, or using Planar Touchstone for that one domain feature (Hunger?) that gives a bite attack.

Pretty much in "ask your GM" territory by that point, if you ask me.

[Jowgen]

That seems suspect to me. If we allow "has a natural weapon that one's base race doesn't normally have" to qualify, then there's a lot of ways to qualify. Like Shape Soulmeld for the Claws of the Wyrm (no bind required), or using the nice hours/level PsyWar buffs, or using Planar Touchstone for that one domain feature (Hunger?) that gives a bite attack.

I see your point, but then again how is growing a Tailhand less of a form alteration than the standard Changeling (or someone with Alter Self active) walking around as a different member of their own race? Obviously the natural weapon would have to be an actual physical alteration, and arugablynot be an irreversible change, but still. And it's not like there seems to be a shortage of easily accessible options already.

EDIT: Also, the Morphic Weapons ability actually says "deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form". Whether that can be reliably parsed down to confirm that having that natural weapons means you have a "new form", I am too tired to figure out right now though.

[Fouredged Sword]

Get a casting of resurection to premenantly alter your race (sketchy). Get a casting of POA to premenantly alter your shape (solid).

[Jowgen]

I updated the OP into a list-based format so that everyone case see (and comment on) all the options mentioned so far.

[Jowgen]

... I must say, rather surprised this didn't get more attention. :smallconfused: Warshaper is a really solid class that goes with a lot of meaty builds if you don't have to worry about shape-changing all the time. Oh well.

[Troacctid]

Honestly, it's pretty much solved by being a Changeling. (Or if you don't mind +1 LA, Quasilycanthrope, or arguably Mulhorandi Divine Minion depending on how strict you are about the "class feature" bit.) Or I guess Tibbit or Hengeyokai. It's an interesting bit of trivia that you can get the shapechanger subtype from a touchstone, but it doesn't seem useful for Warshaper purposes given the other options available.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is fairly well trod ground on the forum. The conclusion of being ether a changling or having the quasi-lycanthrope template or being a shifter being the standard.

Changling is LA zero and can activate warshaper 24/7.

Quasi-lycanthrope is LA +1, but that LA buys you a serious dr 10/silver that is worth the price of admissions, and you can still pick up racial stat mods from your base race (I am looking at you water orc). Or wild elf for barbarian/wildrunner.

Both of those options lack a combat boost from their shifting outside warshaper. If you want that a shifter with lots of shifting feats is also pretty good.

[Jowgen]

Honestly, it's pretty much solved by being a Changeling. (Or if you don't mind +1 LA, Quasilycanthrope, or arguably Mulhorandi Divine Minion depending on how strict you are about the "class feature" bit.) Or I guess Tibbit or Hengeyokai. It's an interesting bit of trivia that you can get the shapechanger subtype from a touchstone, but it doesn't seem useful for Warshaper purposes given the other options available.

It is fairly well trod ground on the forum. The conclusion of being ether a changling or having the quasi-lycanthrope template or being a shifter being the standard.

Changling is LA zero and can activate warshaper 24/7.

Quasi-lycanthrope is LA +1, but that LA buys you a serious dr 10/silver that is worth the price of admissions, and you can still pick up racial stat mods from your base race (I am looking at you water orc). Or wild elf for barbarian/wildrunner.

Both of those options lack a combat boost from their shifting outside warshaper. If you want that a shifter with lots of shifting feats is also pretty good.

Thing with these commonly approved options is, I feel like they do not synergize well with what Warshaper gives you. Changling is ideal for rogues, who's builds don't tend to require Natural Weapons, Str/Con or more reach. Quasillycanthrope is limited to Humanoid/Giant and DR 10/Silver for a +1 LA seems steep to me. Divine Minion is great for a lot of things, but Wild Shape abusing builds are very much their own animals (pun intended).

Tibbit might be fun actually with a Dragonfire Adept build (for the Con bonus) and the flavour of building a fire-breathing cat with Horns, although not really the most optimised choice. Hengeyokai need the Dragon mag OA 3.5 update to be viable, and even then they only give you a little utility with daily use limit in exchange of -2 Wis, while making you miss out on stuff for better races.

Meanwhile, side-stepping the shapechanging requirements as detailed opens up a lot of doors with Warshaper 1-4. Virtually any Barbarian-flavour build works with it, particularly hulking Hulers and Warhulks. Trippers, Grapplers and Chargers can all seriously benefit from the stat-boosts, reach increase and natural attacks. Race-wise, it also really works well with Goliath, Mongrelfolk, Dragonborn and anything else that's a good base for a high Str/Con martial character. Mineral Warrior is a match made in tank-heaven if stacked on top here.

I just feel the class has a lot of potential that gets overlooked/wasted in pursuit of shapechanging qualification. At least for those who just like to hit things really really hard.

[Troacctid]

Hengeyokai gives a Strength or Constitution bonus. 🤷🏻

Most of the builds you're talking about are perfectly happy to go human for one bonus feat. If your plan is to take Touchstone and some other feat just to be able to use Warshaper, then being a changeling is basically like a human who gets two bonus feats instead of one, which honestly seems fine to me.

[Jowgen]

Hengeyokai gives a Strength or Constitution bonus. 🤷🏻

Most of the builds you're talking about are perfectly happy to go human for one bonus feat. If your plan is to take Touchstone and some other feat just to be able to use Warshaper, then being a changeling is basically like a human who gets two bonus feats instead of one, which honestly seems fine to me.

Oh yeah, totally forgot the hybrid form part. They're a decent option then.

The benefit of Touchstone is that you can keep the shapechanger subtype while attuning to another site (e.g catalogues for a plethora of domain granted ability options), or even retrain it all-together. Then you can just spend gold to get the effects online via spell or item, e.g. via 5400 gp spent on the Tooth of Andras (useless wings), Geryon (2nd pair of functioning eyes) or Buer (Satyr feet). Very minimal expenditure of character building resource, perfectly viable for a human.

[Troacctid]

Those shouldn't work. They change the appearance of your natural shape, but you're still in your natural shape.

[emeraldstreak]

I must say, rather surprised this didn't get more attention. :smallconfused: Warshaper is a really solid class

Sure is. It's useful to have all the entry ways compiled.



Thing with these commonly approved options is, I feel like they do not synergize well with what Warshaper gives you. Changling is ideal for rogues, who's builds don't tend to require Natural Weapons, Str/Con or more reach. Quasillycanthrope is limited to Humanoid/Giant and DR 10/Silver for a +1 LA seems steep to me. Divine Minion is great for a lot of things, but Wild Shape abusing builds are very much their own animals (pun intended).

Tibbit might be fun actually with a Dragonfire Adept build (for the Con bonus) and the flavour of building a fire-breathing cat with Horns, although not really the most optimised choice. Hengeyokai need the Dragon mag OA 3.5 update to be viable, and even then they only give you a little utility with daily use limit in exchange of -2 Wis, while making you miss out on stuff for better races.

Meanwhile, side-stepping the shapechanging requirements as detailed opens up a lot of doors with Warshaper 1-4. Virtually any Barbarian-flavour build works with it, particularly hulking Hulers and Warhulks. Trippers, Grapplers and Chargers can all seriously benefit from the stat-boosts, reach increase and natural attacks. Race-wise, it also really works well with Goliath, Mongrelfolk, Dragonborn and anything else that's a good base for a high Str/Con martial character. Mineral Warrior is a match made in tank-heaven if stacked on top here.

I just feel the class has a lot of potential that gets overlooked/wasted in pursuit of shapechanging qualification. At least for those who just like to hit things really really hard.

What I know about the game (and will apply on arenas or pve gauntlets) is not what I play at tables, real or virtual. When at a table the most important consideration is to bring a character who'll add to everyone's enjoyment.

So, while I agree with you Quasilycanthrope is steep at +1, I have taken it for actual games like this (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161). At the table, you gotta leave some holes for the DM to exploit and for other PCs to shine and save the day.

[Jowgen]

Those shouldn't work. They change the appearance of your natural shape, but you're still in your natural shape.

Why don't you think Vestige signs work?

To quote, a "sign is a real change rather than an illusory or shapechanging effect, so anyone viewing the binder with true seeing sees it just as it is. The sign is a supernatural effect and therefore is suppressed when the binding is suppressed."

I honestly can't see how growing wings/extra eyes/hooves is not a change in form, i.e. "the visible shape or configuration of something".

[Zaq]

We’re basically bumping into the fact that “not your own form” isn’t strictly defined. We’ve got a few non-exhaustive examples of when you’re not in your own form, but there’s not much in the way of actual rules definition for the less clear-cut examples.

If this were a 4e game element, for example, it’d probably say something like “while under the effect of a power with the Polymorph keyword,” but we don’t have a hard and fast definition here. So there isn’t really an unambiguous RAW answer to whether having an unusual natural weapon counts, or if a vestige’s sign counts, or if getting a graft counts, or whatever. We can guess at RAI, but we can’t rely on ironclad RAW. Which isn’t a satisfying answer, of course, but at some point it’s necessary to take a step back and say “this basically needs, if not an actively cooperative GM, at least one who agrees with this particular reading of unclear rules” and change one’s mental calculus accordingly.

[Troacctid]

Why don't think Vestige signs work?

To quote, a "sign is a real change rather than an illusory or shapechanging effect, so anyone viewing the binder with true seeing sees it just as it is. The sign is a supernatural effect and therefore is suppressed when the binding is suppressed."

I honestly can't see how growing wings/extra eyes/hooves is not a change in form, i.e. "the visible shape or configuration of something".
See, look, you quoted it yourself, it's not a shapechanging effect! It's your true form. True seeing not seeing through it only proves my point.

The subject [...] sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.

If you don't want to get it through a race or template, you probably have to get it through a dip. Shapeshift Druid, Variant Egoist, Sentinel of Bharrai, and Twisted Lord can all do it at 1st level.

[Jowgen]

We’re basically bumping into the fact that “not your own form” isn’t strictly defined. We’ve got a few non-exhaustive examples of when you’re not in your own form, but there’s not much in the way of actual rules definition for the less clear-cut examples.


See, look, you quoted it yourself, it's not a shapechanging effect! It's your true form. True seeing not seeing through it only proves my point.

If we take the Signs' true seeing limitation as an applicable rule, then that could actually help with the definition a little, i.e. if it's a physical change and True Seeing shows it differently then it qualifies. So any effect that makes a creature "polymorphed, changed, or transmuted".

It's not much, but I think it might be a good place to start.

[Troacctid]

If we take the Signs' true seeing limitation as an applicable rule, then that could actually help with the definition a little, i.e. if it's a physical change and True Seeing shows it differently then it qualifies. So any effect that makes a creature "polymorphed, changed, or transmuted".

It's not much, but I think it might be a good place to start.
Disagree. "If it is not revealed by True Seeing, then it is not a different form," does not imply "If it is revealed by True Seeing, then it is a different form."

[Jowgen]

Disagree. "If it is not revealed by True Seeing, then it is not a different form," does not imply "If it is revealed by True Seeing, then it is a different form."

True, but then again "real change/not shapechanging" does not necessarily mean "not true form" either. I just thought that, in the absence of a better guideline, this could be a not-entirely arbitrary guideline.

Interesting thing I just noticed, while Alternate Form doesn't let you qualify for Warshaper by itself, Rules Compendium p. 24 somewhat definitively defines Alternate Form as giving you a form different other than your ow", so by RAW it can still be used to get the class features online. Which kinda makes sense considering that Wild Shape explicitly refers to working like Alter Self with caveats.¨

Another (rather pointless) find: Gaseous Form also seems to qualify, and might actually allow straight-up qualification for Warshaper entry.

I also found something actually useful: The Proof Against Transmutation ASA gives immunity to any Transmutation effect that would alter the wearer's form, and it specifically lists the following as being applicable: polymorph and petrification effects, disintegration and enlarge person. So size changes do qualify (e.g. Mountain Rage), and based on petrification it seems like things that change body composition should as well, even when physical shape is left unaltered.

Any case, I think the question "Would Proof Against Transmutation block this" makes for a rather solid starting point when evaluating whether a specific effect would work.

EDIT: Another handy find, the Tail of the Dragon psychometabolism power from SoS p. 132. It's not a great power, in that all it does is give you a tail slap for a cl/hours, but the first line is "You summon up the strength of the great dragons to change your form, manifesting a tail that thrashes with power", giving credence to the notion that growing a new natural attack qualifies as a form change.