Let's talk about the Circle of Spores Druid

[jaappleton]

In case anybody missed it, it premiered in January from Unearthed Arcana.

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA-3Subclasses0108.pdf

I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything here.

Let's say I'm level 9. Here's what I can do, unless there's something I've missed:

Lets assume I have Polearm Master
I have 5th level spells
Halo of Spores lets me do 6 damage as a Reaction (Just whenever, nothing actually triggers this. It just happens.)
27 Temp HP whenever I use Wild Shape to Symbiotic Entity, which DOUBLES the Halo of Spores damage (So 12. Just deal with it, apparently)
Can make 1 HP zombies when I kill with Halo of Spores
With PAM and Shillelagh, I'm doing 1d8+1d6+Wis with my Action and +1d4+1d6+Wis with my Bonus Action (Its not limited to +1d6 per turn, like Cleric's Divine Strike, right?)

So lets get this right...

I have d8 HD, with temp HP pretty reliably (twice per short rest)
STILL have standard Wild Shape
Full Druid spellcaster
Respectable melee damage, especially for a Full Caster

And there's a MASSIVE jump in damage at 10th level, as the Halo of Spores damage jumps up to 9 and I gain the ability to create a 10ft cube storm of the spores as often as I want with a Bonus Action.


I don't think there's been enough talk about how versatile and... Kinda off the grid this is. I'm a Druid capable of respectable melee and have full casting. Yes, it specializes in Poison damage, which is often resisted, but you've still got the rest of the Druid arsenal to deal with that.

[hymer]

Polearm Master goes poorly with spending your reaction on Halo of Spores. The Halo strangely only occurs during your own turn, despite being activated as a Reaction. Symbiotic Entity is activated as an Action and only leasts for 10 minutes. The extra weapon damage is poison, which isn't good. Only humanoid kills from the Halo create zombies.

Other than that, I think you've got it.

[Ventruenox]

Yes, this Druid Circle is crazy. It feels like adding Hex and Agonizing Blast to your attacks with Wild Shape. Even a two level dip on a martial class makes it appealing, if you dip 3, you can set up your own AoE. If you think about this Circle to be equivalent to a Warlock multiclass for builds that dump Charisma, it doesn't seem too badly broken.

Unless you munchkin it.

This mixes quite well with Kensai Monk. Druids also get the Jump spell. A Grung Kensai Spore Druid with Slippers of Spider climb breaks the game with 3D hit & run attacks. Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter can add stackable buffs via Blood Rites and Hex to throw more dice down on each of those attacks.

I love how Wild Shape is getting alternative uses, but it may need some refinement.

[jaappleton]

Polearm Master goes poorly with spending your reaction on Halo of Spores. The Halo strangely only occurs during your own turn, despite being activated as a Reaction. Symbiotic Entity is activated as an Action and only leasts for 10 minutes. The extra weapon damage is poison, which isn't good. Only humanoid kills from the Halo create zombies.

Other than that, I think you've got it.

I don't quite follow your PAM logic.

I was getting it for the Bonus Action attack. Are you referring to Sentinel, which if often paired with PAM due to the Reaction attack with reach weapons?

[hymer]

I don't quite follow your PAM logic.

I was getting it for the Bonus Action attack. Are you referring to Sentinel, which if often paired with PAM due to the Reaction attack with reach weapons?

Sentinel is what I was being so unclear about, well spotted. But that is probably an ASI too far come to think of it. You should probably put something into wisdom, depending on stats method.

[jaappleton]

Sentinel is what I was being so unclear about, well spotted. But that is probably an ASI too far come to think of it. You should probably put something into wisdom, depending on stats method.

For this, I'd go PAM and just pump Wis after that, and eventually Warcaster at lv12, since I'd likely be within 30ft of enemies most times. I'd pass on Sentinel entirely, since I'd have a Quarterstaff keying off Wisdom via Shillaleigh.

[Dudewithknives]

One of the biggest issues is that it revolves around poison damage. Too many things resist it.

Also you can bet when this hits print, if it ever does, that it will not use a reaction for spores, they will change it to a bonus action.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'd ignore PAM and just take a Monk dip.
There's your bonus action, for the same damage, assuming your Dex and Wis are similar.
Lose one caster level. Gain back that lost ASI, along with your main stat to AC and the bonus attack you were spending a feat to get.

[Mortis_Elrod]

im really loving this druid, One of the best flavor of druids that ive been waiting to appear in 5e.


As per the meat of the class i would have prefered necrotic and poison being mixed in there but Poison is fine as long as your DM isn't a d*** with who he throws at you. Plenty of different campaigns that might only rarely run into poison immunity/resistance against something that mattered.

Finally a melee druid that doesn't need to be Moon.




I'd say its really close to ready for the books, just needs a bit of refinement. Alternatively i wouldn't mind a more....sinister Walker in the Waste/Blight/Anti Druid be made out of testing this one. Druids need a Necro option to complete my collection of Necromancy builds.

[Mortis_Elrod]

One of the biggest issues is that it revolves around poison damage. Too many things resist it.

Also you can bet when this hits print, if it ever does, that it will not use a reaction for spores, they will change it to a bonus action.

I feel like theres not enough things to do with Reactions and a druid using it wouldn't be all that bad.


I'm tired of picking through a library of options for bonus action on every single character.

[rbstr]

I honestly don't think PAM is that valuable. Particularly because it needs shillelagh. You've got a lot of action economy issue that are going to make it used less often than you think:

One of the big ones is your bonus action is really valuable once you're at level 10. You really want to bonus-action those spores out at the start of battle (also a reason to have high dex/alert).
If you shillelagh in the first round you're taking a huge hit to first round damage from not having the spore puddle out. It'll be very hard to make it back.

Plus a lot of your action is taken up by non-attacks so they won't trigger the PAM attack
Shifting to the Symbiotic Entity is an action
Many good Druid spells use your action repeatedly like moonbeam and call lightning.

Now if you're getting to a 5-level MC in a martial class, particularly Monk but Ranger with TWF is decent too...then your d6 of poison on hit is starting to look better. You're still gonna waste that first action on Entity, but you free a bonus action to drop the spore puddle by not wasting time on the overrated SAD-stick.

[Tetrasodium]

I've had one played by someone at my table & did not see any notable problems, it was a lot like a thematically druidish battle cleric. I applaud wotc for recognizing that both are d8 medium armor classes, cleric archtypes that lean towards battle get heavy armor, having a druid one get a uitably druidic damage ability & temp hp instead is just acknowledging the sacred cow of the past when druids were a powerful part of the CODzilla is finally fit for execution.

[jaappleton]

Is there anything that stops me from transforming TWICE?

As in, using my action to Wild Shape into Symbiotic Entity
And as my bonus action, cast Guardian of Nature

Now my strength based melee attacks are doing +1d6 Force and +1d6 Poison in addition to their normal damage

Assuming Quarterstaff (Strength based), I have Advantage on all my attacks, with Polearm Master I get two attacks, for 1d8+1d6P+1d6F+Str and 1d4+1d6P+1d6F+Str, right? And my Reaction to do double Spores damage.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Is there anything that stops me from transforming TWICE?

As in, using my action to Wild Shape into Symbiotic Entity
And as my bonus action, cast Guardian of Nature

Now my strength based melee attacks are doing +1d6 Force and +1d6 Poison in addition to their normal damage

Assuming Quarterstaff (Strength based), I have Advantage on all my attacks, with Polearm Master I get two attacks, for 1d8+1d6P+1d6F+Str and 1d4+1d6P+1d6F+Str, right? And my Reaction to do double Spores damage.

I have no qualms with such a thing and there are no rules saying you can't. Good find.

[jaappleton]

I have no qualms with such a thing and there are no rules saying you can't. Good find.

What’s especially unique is that this includes a ton of dice, as opposed to a static figure like the +10 damage of Sharpshooter or GWM.

Meaning if you hit a Paralyzed creature, such as the victim of Hold Person... >_>

[Ventruenox]

Too bad Guardian of Nature is also a concentration spell. Still, you got a single classed full caster that is viable for melee.

[Tetrasodium]

Is there anything that stops me from transforming TWICE?

As in, using my action to Wild Shape into Symbiotic Entity
And as my bonus action, cast Guardian of Nature

Now my strength based melee attacks are doing +1d6 Force and +1d6 Poison in addition to their normal damage

Assuming Quarterstaff (Strength based), I have Advantage on all my attacks, with Polearm Master I get two attacks, for 1d8+1d6P+1d6F+Str and 1d4+1d6P+1d6F+Str, right? And my Reaction to do double Spores damage.

There's nothing wrong with that & it's not even all that extreme. a war cleric can for example use a great sword/greataxe for 2d6/1d12 & divine strike every attack (d8/2d8 depending on level) then do it again as a bonus action a number of times equal to their wisdom mod per long or short rest for a theoretical 40-56 compared to the theoretical 36 & does not need to be burning any spell slots to do it.

Given that guardian of nature is a 4th level spell (so level 8) & your example depends on a feat, I don't think comparing it to what an 8th+ level war cleric can do without spells is an unreasonable comparison.


The only reason it might seem surprising that a druid coud do that is because people are still stuck thinking that druids need to be punished for 3.5's "I got this guys, go buy me a pizza" CoDzilla & the level 2ish moon druid's bear form.

[jaappleton]

Too bad Guardian of Nature is also a concentration spell. Still, you got a single classed full caster that is viable for melee.

I know. Still, there’s enough others that get access to Hold Person that it’s very much worth noting. Hold Monster is something else, though.

But while it takes a whole turn to set up, it’s fairly good. I like it. This may be my favorite gish at this point. I liken this to Tenser’s Transformation, but it comes online earlier, and you can heal, while a Bladesinger can’t.

[jaappleton]

There's nothing wrong with that & it's not even all that extreme. a war cleric can for example use a great sword/greataxe for 2d6/1d12 & divine strike every attack (d8/2d8 depending on level) then do it again as a bonus action a number of times equal to their wisdom mod per long or short rest for a theoretical 40-56 compared to the theoretical 36 & does not need to be burning any spell slots to do it.

Given that guardian of nature is a 4th level spell (so level 8) & your example depends on a feat, I don't think comparing it to what an 8th+ level war cleric can do without spells is an unreasonable comparison.


The only reason it might seem surprising that a druid coud do that is because people are still stuck thinking that druids need to be punished for 3.5's "I got this guys, go buy me a pizza" CoDzilla & the level 2ish moon druid's bear form.

You seem to be quite misinformed regarding the War Cleric. They can bonus action attack equal to their Wis Mod per long rest, it never refreshes on a short rest. Additionally, Divine Strike at lv8 applies only to one attack per turn, so their bonus action attack never benefits from it.

[Tetrasodium]

You seem to be quite misinformed regarding the War Cleric. They can bonus action attack equal to their Wis Mod per long rest, it never refreshes on a short rest. Additionally, Divine Strike at lv8 applies only to one attack per turn, so their bonus action attack never benefits from it.

Good catch, however you are still talking about a heavy armor & martial weapon archtype using nothing but a stock martial weapon& class features compared to a medium armor archtype using a class feature, a feat, and a spell together. the most notable feature of it is that all the dice together will make the damage tend to stick towards the average giving fewer high/low spikes & pits.

[Lombra]

A monk multiclass is almost instinctive. I like it a lot.

[hymer]

The monk Unarmored Defense doesn't work with shields, making it a lot less appealing. Even with Wis20, you're only just ahead of simply using a bog-standard shield and studded leather or hide armor.

[Mortis_Elrod]

The monk Unarmored Defense doesn't work with shields, making it a lot less appealing. Even with Wis20, you're only just ahead of simply using a bog-standard shield and studded leather or hide armor.

i think monk was for more attacks thus more damage with the on hit effect stacking.

[hymer]

i think monk was for more attacks thus more damage with the on hit effect stacking.
You're probably right, but the AC advantage was mentioned earlier in the thread, and others didn't specify. I just wanted to be sure that shields were mentioned.

[crgrier]

I'm starting an adventure involving vegepygmies and russet mold. One of my players is bringing a spore druid.

Would it be reasonable that vegepygmies are immune to spore poison damage since they are made of mold (their alternate name is moldies after all)?

Would the spore druid be immune or resistant to russet mold because they are already infected with another fungus?

Is there an appearance change with Symbiotic Entity? Could the spore druid try to pass as a vegepygmy or have advantage on disguise maybe?

[jaappleton]

Nothing is immune to poison unless a stat block says so. Now, there are some things that are technically possible but are just silly as hell.... Like a Fire Elemental being able to set a Water Elemental on Fire. While RAW, I don’t think it’s RAI.

Symbiotic Entity doesn’t state that the user changes in appearance but D&D also encourages people to make things their own, and to flavor things as much as possible. Your magic missile might be a thin streak of blue light while mine might be a purple orb being hurled at a target, for example.

[crgrier]

Nothing is immune to poison unless a stat block says so.


I've done some reading about real-world fungus since yesterday and one fungus can definitely attack another.



Symbiotic Entity doesn’t state that the user changes in appearance but D&D also encourages people to make things their own, and to flavor things as much as possible.

I think I will give her moldy skin and eyebrows for role-playing flavor because Symbiotic Entity is a wild shape and all other wild shapes have a visible change. If she makes it to 14th level, the Fungal Body will have definite physical changes; for example she can't be blinded because she has fungal patches that cover her eyes.

I will allow her advantage on an Insight or Nature checks to get information about russet mold or other fungus critters. It's her specialty after all. Besides, the players need a hint when they encounter this for the first time.



Your magic missile might be a thin streak of blue light while mine might be a purple orb being hurled at a target, for example.
Since the days of AD&D, I've always ruled that Magic Missiles are shimmering force in the shape of tiny darts coming from the caster's fingertips (a dart does 1d4 and a Magic Missile is 1d4+1). I like giving my world little 1e details. :smallbiggrin:

[tieren]

Since the days of AD&D, I've always ruled that Magic Missiles are shimmering force in the shape of tiny darts coming from the caster's fingertips (a dart does 1d4 and a Magic Missile is 1d4+1). I like giving my world little 1e details. :smallbiggrin:

I can't find it now, but in one of the first books I ever had there was a picture of a magic user summoning a glowing arrow that then streaked to the target. That is how I have pictured magic missile ever since.

[deo85]

The monk Unarmored Defense doesn't work with shields, making it a lot less appealing. Even with Wis20, you're only just ahead of simply using a bog-standard shield and studded leather or hide armor.

Sadly studded leather uses metal so you cant wear it as a druid. So with Hide armor(12) + 2 dex mod + 2 shield gets you 16 and thats where you stay.

If you invest in your dex and wis with 1 lvl in monk you can get up to 10 + 4 dex + 4 wis gets you 18 AC, +4 Initiative, and a unarm strike bonus action 1d4 that uses your dex mod for damage and hit plus proficiency modifier.

Over all dipping in monk for a spore of circle better then a shield and armor. Add in feats combat caster and Resilient you get a high concentration checks working out. Since I am a front line fighter caster I like to also get Durable for some pump up in hp.

[hymer]

Sadly studded leather uses metal so you cant wear it as a druid.

Studded leather may or may not have metal bits on it (the description mentions 'rivets or spikes', but not what they are made of). Let's assume those are made of metal. That doesn't mean the armour is, as the PHB describes the prohibition, "made of metal". Think of what we would call a 'wooden' ship. You can still call it that if it has metal struts, railings, anchors, etc. Presumably you can still call standard leather armour that, even if it has a few buckles of metal on it, e.g.
If you think that's so much wordiness, I refer you to JC (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-march-2016):

A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor [...]

[Kadesh]

I can't find it now, but in one of the first books I ever had there was a picture of a magic user summoning a glowing arrow that then streaked to the target. That is how I have pictured magic missile ever since.
Funny that. Since seeing Magic Missile in Diablo with it sending up a volley of vertical launch missiles which then orient themselves in the air, that is how I pictured them.

[Helliquin]

Is there a way that this Druid could multi class with wiz or cleric (or both) for a more melee type necromancer?

Thinking AOE spells centered on the character... they could waltz through combat necrotic flames or poison radiating outwards from their person with the fallen raising as their minions?

Idk if possible, havnt looked too far in to it.

[jaappleton]

Is there a way that this Druid could multi class with wiz or cleric (or both) for a more melee type necromancer?

Thinking AOE spells centered on the character... they could waltz through combat necrotic flames or poison radiating outwards from their person with the fallen raising as their minions?

Idk if possible, havnt looked too far in to it.

Well going Cleric 5 gets you Spirit Guardians as a spell, which can have the Necrotic damage type, as well as access to Spiritual Weapon for a solid bonus action attack.

After that, Warlock might be good. You can do it with just the 13 Cha requirement, taking Thirsting Blade for a second attack at lv5 with access to Armor of Agathys to further punish enemies who hit you.