Do racial cantrips scale with level?

[bc56]

Let's say I play a high elf, and choose fire bolt as my racial cantrip. When I reach 5th level, even if I am not a spellcaster, does the damage increase?

[Atalas]

cantrips scale with character level, not class

[Tubben]

Let's say I play a high elf, and choose fire bolt as my racial cantrip. When I reach 5th level, even if I am not a spellcaster, does the damage increase?



Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
Eldritch blast scales with character level, not warlock level. This is true of any cantrip that scales with level.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/04/eldritch-blast-scale/

[BurgerBeast]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/04/eldritch-blast-scale/

To be fair, this doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

JC says it’s true for all cantrips that scale with level. This would seem to leave open the possibility that some cantrips do not scale with level.

The OP’s question is whether racial cantrips are cantrips that scale with level.

[Greywander]

This would seem to leave open the possibility that some cantrips do not scale with level.
I believe the breakdown is actually pretty simple: If the cantrip deals damage, then it scales as you level up. If the cantrip doesn't deal damage, then it doesn't scale. I'm not aware of a single exception to either of these rules.

To answer the OP's question, yes, racial cantrips scale. In fact all cantrips scale with your character level, not your class level. If you did one level into wizard, and then go straight fighter until 20, those wizard cantrips would still scale as you leveled up. Same goes for cantrips obtained via the Magic Initiate feat.

[DarkKnightJin]

To be fair, this doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

JC says it’s true for all cantrips that scale with level. This would seem to leave open the possibility that some cantrips do not scale with level.

The OP’s question is whether racial cantrips are cantrips that scale with level.

Non-damaging cantrips don't scale with level, because they don't need to.
Guidance, Thaumaturgy, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand.. these things do what they do in the same way. No matter a 1st, 11th, or 20th level character.

Firebolt, Eldritch Blast, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame.. these all scale up in damage at set character levels, to keep them relevant as the general power level of the enemies increases to match the players.

[Tubben]

To be fair, this doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

JC says it’s true for all cantrips that scale with level. This would seem to leave open the possibility that some cantrips do not scale with level.

The OP’s question is whether racial cantrips are cantrips that scale with level.

Yes a cantrap like Minor Illusion dont scale with level.
Every cantrip, that do dmg scale with level.

edit: should read the rest of the thread before answering :-)

[Lombra]

Cantrips do what cantrips do. It doesn't matter where you are gaining them from.

[BurgerBeast]

I believe the breakdown is actually pretty simple: If the cantrip deals damage, then it scales as you level up. If the cantrip doesn't deal damage, then it doesn't scale. I'm not aware of a single exception to either of these rules.

Yes, of course. Thanks for clarifying. I was being a bit dense.

[Naanomi]

I believe the breakdown is actually pretty simple: If the cantrip deals damage, then it scales as you level up. If the cantrip doesn't deal damage, then it doesn't scale. I'm not aware of a single exception to either of these rules.
Shillelagh and Magic Stone, in a way, do damage but don’t scale

[Tetrasodium]

Shillelagh and Magic Stone, in a way, do damage but don’t scale

I think magic stone is a weird holdover from prior editions when it was at least as good as the other awful level 0 spells. Shillelagh is a weird limbo where it does not scale because it is a druid spell and no druid archtype gets multiple attacks. If Shillelagh scaled like other cantrips, it would be stupid broken in the hands of anyone with two or three attacksdealing 1-4d8+wis times the number of attacks as you reach levels 5 11 & 17. It would turn high wis+magic adept for Shillelagh the godly option for any and all martial classes. nobody would use strength or dex for melee weapon attacks after level 4 because Wis + shillelagh compatible weapons would be orders of magnitude better in any situation that did not involve going up against an immunity.

[Greywander]

Shillelagh and Magic Stone, in a way, do damage but don’t scale
Not really, they just turn a non-magical weapon into a magical weapon. As far as I understand, the whole point of damage cantrips is to give them an alternative to weapons. As such, the reason that they scale is to keep them competitive with weapon attacks from martial classes. Note that cantrips do not benefit from Extra Attack, fighting styles, Sneak Attack, etc., and so scale to keep up. Shillelagh and Magic Stone would benefit from Extra Attack, fighting styles, Sneak Attack, etc., and so don't scale, since they already gain all the normal scaling that martial classes would get.

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade occupy a weird in-between space. They don't benefit from Extra Attack, but otherwise require making a normal weapon attack as part of the spell. So they would benefit from fighting styles, Sneak Attack, Improved Divine Smite, etc. And yet they still scale.

[DarkKnightJin]

Not really, they just turn a non-magical weapon into a magical weapon. As far as I understand, the whole point of damage cantrips is to give them an alternative to weapons. As such, the reason that they scale is to keep them competitive with weapon attacks from martial classes. Note that cantrips do not benefit from Extra Attack, fighting styles, Sneak Attack, etc., and so scale to keep up. Shillelagh and Magic Stone would benefit from Extra Attack, fighting styles, Sneak Attack, etc., and so don't scale, since they already gain all the normal scaling that martial classes would get.

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade occupy a weird in-between space. They don't benefit from Extra Attack, but otherwise require making a normal weapon attack as part of the spell. So they would benefit from fighting styles, Sneak Attack, Improved Divine Smite, etc. And yet they still scale.

BB and GFB scale because they trade out any Extra Attacks for a single casting of the cantrip.
That's why they're still benefitting from things that would boost the melee weapon attack damage.
Which just makes them a bump for gishes to do what gishes need to do: blend magic and martial.

[Greywander]

The reason I said BB and GFB was in an in-between space was because Extra Attack is only part of the formula that boosts damage for martial classes. Fighter is the only class that gets more than one Extra Attack, and rogues don't get any. That said, most bonus action attacks (dual wielding, Martial Arts, PAM) require you to use the Attack action, so BB and GFB would deny you that bonus action attack, too. Also, there is a certain breakpoint where the increase in damage to a single attack begins to outweigh the benefits of BB and GFB, to the point where that Extra Attack or bonus action attack become more valuable.

All I meant by that was that it did get a bit muddy because those particular cantrips mix in some of the damage bonuses that are normally reserved for weapons and exclude cantrips, while still scaling like normal damage cantrips. Rogues are about the only ones that can get the most out of them, but it does allow gishes to sacrifice Extra Attack to focus on the more magical side. After all, you only need two levels in fighter to get Action Surge, a fighting style, and proficiency in martial weapons and medium or heavy armor.

[Davrix]

To be fair, this doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

JC says it’s true for all cantrips that scale with level. This would seem to leave open the possibility that some cantrips do not scale with level.

The OP’s question is whether racial cantrips are cantrips that scale with level.

Uhhh yea it does.


It scales with CHARACTER LEVEL and is true of any cantrip that SCALES WITH LEVEL.

Simple to the point. Any cantrip that has the scaling based on levels in it's bottom text, scales off character level. So yes this answers the OP question very nicely. Why do people try and make things more complicated then they need be.

[Arkhios]

Why do people try and make things more complicated then they need be.

Because natural language understanding is so hard!

[AHF]

I think magic stone is a weird holdover from prior editions when it was at least as good as the other awful level 0 spells. Shillelagh is a weird limbo where it does not scale because it is a druid spell and no druid archtype gets multiple attacks. If Shillelagh scaled like other cantrips, it would be stupid broken in the hands of anyone with two or three attacksdealing 1-4d8+wis times the number of attacks as you reach levels 5 11 & 17. It would turn high wis+magic adept for Shillelagh the godly option for any and all martial classes. nobody would use strength or dex for melee weapon attacks after level 4 because Wis + shillelagh compatible weapons would be orders of magnitude better in any situation that did not involve going up against an immunity.

How is Wis + shillelagh better than any other character with a 1d8 magic weapon and same stat (18 Wis, 18 Dex, 18 Str)? How would this be anything remotely game breaking?

[Arkhios]

How is Wis + shillelagh better than any other character with a 1d8 magic weapon and same stat (18 Wis, 18 Dex, 18 Str)? How would this be anything remotely game breaking?

A quaranteed magical weapon makes a huge difference. Magic items are not a given in 5th edition. One could reasonably go through all his or her adventuring career and never acquire one. A cantrip that creates a magic weapon, even temporarily, is huge. Not game breaking, but certainly powerful.

[DracoKnight]

How is Wis + shillelagh better than any other character with a 1d8 magic weapon and same stat (18 Wis, 18 Dex, 18 Str)? How would this be anything remotely game breaking?

Shillelagh as written, isn't broken. If it scaled up to 4d8 AND worked with Extra Attack, it would be broken. I think that that's what the poster was saying.

[AHF]

Shillelagh as written, isn't broken. If it scaled up to 4d8 AND worked with Extra Attack, it would be broken. I think that that's what the poster was saying.

That makes sense and would obviously be ridiculous if you could use it with extra attack. Like permanent smite damage on every hit. But I also think it is pretty obvious that if they wanted it to scale then it would function like Booming Blade and not work with extra attack.

[BurgerBeast]

Uhhh yea it does.



Simple to the point. Any cantrip that has the scaling based on levels in it's bottom text, scales off character level. So yes this answers the OP question very nicely. Why do people try and make things more complicated then they need be.

Why do people comment before reading the entire thread? I already acknowledged this.