Aberrate and Alter Self

[Nebuul]

What are the best aberration forms to choose for alter self? This is for a villainous npc boss at the end of a low-level adventure series with players around levels 4-5.

[Venger]

grell and gibbering mouther are pretty great.

[Inevitability]

Are you using the Aberrate spell from BoVD to be an aberration? Note that that one has a Fiend component, meaning the caster must be an evil outsider.

Also, I quite like Chokers, especially if you have Assume Supernatural Ability.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm assuming the boss is a medium size abberation with CL5. (If that is an incorrect assumption, the options below will change.) So we can look at any Small, Medium, or Large abberation with up to 5 HD. Things to look for are movement capabilities (such as flight), natural armor, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, and racial bonus feats.

I've come up with the following list based on Type and HD, but have not filtered for size yet. These are from the sources with the largest number of aberrations.

MM1: carrion crawler, choker, ethereal filcher, ettercap, gibbering mouther, grick, rust monster, skum.
MM2: fihyrs, grell, ixitxachitls, meenlock, neogis, wyste.
MM3: harpoon spider, lurking strangler, mindshredder larva, runehound.
MM4: howler wasp.
MM5: -none-
LoM: beholderkin (spectator), gibbering mouther, hound of the gloom, illithidae (saltor).
FF: -none

[Nebuul]

Are you using the Aberrate spell from BoVD to be an aberration? Note that that one has a Fiend component, meaning the caster must be an evil outsider.


I actually missed that, but oh well this npc can cast it without that requirement. Problem solved!

[Thurbane]

Have a handbook: 3.5 Forms for Alter Self (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2811.0) :smallsmile:

...and a link: Alter Self... as an Elan? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21670836&postcount=14)

[RoboEmperor]

I actually missed that, but oh well this npc can cast it without that requirement. Problem solved!

-.-

Or get him to cast Devil's Ego

edit: actually, evil outsider isn't a fiend, you have to be a fiend to be a fiend, so nevermind. Unless I'm wrong, i haven't exactly studied BoVD. In any case you could also have him cast alter self to become a dretch or something and then aberrate.

[Nebuul]

I like the Gibbering Mouther a lot. I'll probably go with that. It's nice and freaky.

[Malimar]

edit: actually, evil outsider isn't a fiend, you have to be a fiend to be a fiend, so nevermind. Unless I'm wrong, i haven't exactly studied BoVD. In any case you could also have him cast alter self to become a dretch or something and then aberrate.
Actually, unlike "demon", "devil", "true dragon", and so on, where the determiner is what category it's listed under in the MM, "fiend" refers to any Outsider with the [evil] subtype.

Evil Subtype
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

[atemu1234]

Actually, unlike "demon", "devil", "true dragon", and so on, where the determiner is what category it's listed under in the MM, "fiend" refers to any Outsider with the [evil] subtype.

There must be some better way to use this, some way to use this to break the game wide open. Somehow.

[Deophaun]

MM2: fihyrs, grell, ixitxachitls, meenlock, neogis, wyste.
The 3.5 grell and neogi are in Lords of Madness. Notable change for the grell is that, instead of a paralysis attack on every hit, it gets a single attack with a scaling DC per hitg

[RoboEmperor]

Actually, unlike "demon", "devil", "true dragon", and so on, where the determiner is what category it's listed under in the MM, "fiend" refers to any Outsider with the [evil] subtype.

There it is. You don't need to be an outsider with an evil subtype. You just need to be an outsider with an evil alignment.

So yeah either

1. Say your NPC boss was a tiefling

or

2. have your NPC boss cast Devil's Ego if he's a cleric with the Diabolic Domain, or UMD a scroll of it before casting aberrate.

[Zombimode]

grell and gibbering mouther are pretty great.

Do note however that changing into a Grell makes you blind.

Skum and Snowcloak are also pretty good.

[Crake]

There it is. You don't need to be an outsider with an evil subtype. You just need to be an outsider with an evil alignment.

So yeah either

1. Say your NPC boss was a tiefling

or

2. have your NPC boss cast Devil's Ego if he's a cleric with the Diabolic Domain, or UMD a scroll of it before casting aberrate.

We have to go by the specific rule here. Pulling definitions from everywhere is irrelevant when the book of vile darknes specifies what you need to qualify for the fiend component:


Fiend: The caster must be an outsider from the Lower Planes to cast this spell.

Bolding mine, but a tiefling would not qualify for for this, hell, even an efreeti wouldn't qualify, since they aren't from the lower planes, despite being outsiders with the evil subtype.

[RoboEmperor]

We have to go by the specific rule here. Pulling definitions from everywhere is irrelevant when the book of vile darknes specifies what you need to qualify for the fiend component:



Bolding mine, but a tiefling would not qualify for for this, hell, even an efreeti wouldn't qualify, since they aren't from the lower planes, despite being outsiders with the evil subtype.

Yeah, I haven't studied BoVD, my bad. But this just means he just needs to add an alter self in there like I said before.

[Crake]

Yeah, I haven't studied BoVD, my bad. But this just means he just needs to add an alter self in there like I said before.

Well, the question becomes, will that even qualify? It doesn't say "in the form of an outsider from the lower planes", you have to actually be from the lower planes. No matter what you do, if you were born on the material plane, you're from the material plane, no matter what form you take. I believe there are prestige classes in BoVD that explicitly let you overcome this limitation (just like there are prestige classes in BoED that let you overcome the celestial requirements of spells), you can't just overcome them with a simple spell.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, the question becomes, will that even qualify? It doesn't say "in the form of an outsider from the lower planes", you have to actually be from the lower planes. No matter what you do, if you were born on the material plane, you're from the material plane, no matter what form you take. I believe there are prestige classes in BoVD that explicitly let you overcome this limitation (just like there are prestige classes in BoED that let you overcome the celestial requirements of spells), you can't just overcome them with a simple spell.

A dretch is a fiend from the lower planes. You have magically changed yourself into a dretch. I don't see a problem. You're not playing dress up pretending to be a dretch, you ARE a dretch with alter self.

So I guess our disagreement lies in just how "real" alter self is. I believe it's 100% real where as you think it's just a guise.

[Crake]

A dretch is a fiend from the lower planes. You have magically changed yourself into a dretch. I don't see a problem. You're not playing dress up pretending to be a dretch, you ARE a dretch with alter self.

So I guess our disagreement lies in just how "real" alter self is. I believe it's 100% real where as you think it's just a guise.

I'm not gonna argue the "reality" of being a dretch with alter self, because that doesn't even come down to it. A dretch is a dretch, and yes, while most likely 100% of dretches come from the lower planes, when you turn into a dretch, you are a dretch from the material plane. Alter self does not change your home plane, if you go to the abyss and turn into a dretch, banishment still sends you back to the material plane.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm not gonna argue the "reality" of being a dretch with alter self, because that doesn't even come down to it. A dretch is a dretch, and yes, while most likely 100% of dretches come from the lower planes, when you turn into a dretch, you are a dretch from the material plane. Alter self does not change your home plane, if you go to the abyss and turn into a dretch, banishment still sends you back to the material plane.

Yeah so I'm saying "fiend from the lower planes" = species, where as you're saying "fiend from the lower planes" = history of the caster. Whether the requirement demands species or history, i guess that's up for interpretation.

[Crake]

Yeah so I'm saying "fiend from the lower planes" = species, where as you're saying "fiend from the lower planes" = history of the caster. Whether the requirement demands species or history, i guess that's up for interpretation.

Well, considering being "from" somewhere is a pretty straightforward concept. Put it this way, you can have a tiger from the jungle, and a tiger from the grasslands. They're both tigers, but they aren't both from the jungle. Now replace tiger with outsider, replace jungle with lower planes, and replace grasslands with material plane. After all, there are plenty of outsiders that can be born in different locations, take the half fiend for example. One born on the material plane vs one born on a lower plane. Would the one born on the lower planes count in your opinion? After all, it is, for all intents and purposes, "an outsider from the lower planes". But if the same creature was born on the material plane, it would suddenly not qualify, despite being the exact same species, the exact same creature in every way. Plus, if, say, a succubus was born on the material plane, or in your case, someone turned into a succubus while on the material plane, becoming a material plane-native succubus, then are succubi really outsiders from the lower planes? After all, they have quite clearly shown to be capable of coming from other places, so clearly a succubus is not "an outsider from the lower planes", because they have been born elsewhere.

I mean, there's just no way it can relate to species, because species can be introduced into different environments, and then they no longer become "from XYZ location". At that point, you have to start specifying, for example "this is an australian swan, and that is an american swan".

[RoboEmperor]

Well, considering being "from" somewhere is a pretty straightforward concept. Put it this way, you can have a tiger from the jungle, and a tiger from the grasslands. They're both tigers, but they aren't both from the jungle. Now replace tiger with outsider, replace jungle with lower planes, and replace grasslands with material plane. After all, there are plenty of outsiders that can be born in different locations, take the half fiend for example. One born on the material plane vs one born on a lower plane. Would the one born on the lower planes count in your opinion? After all, it is, for all intents and purposes, "an outsider from the lower planes". But if the same creature was born on the material plane, it would suddenly not qualify, despite being the exact same species, the exact same creature in every way. Plus, if, say, a succubus was born on the material plane, or in your case, someone turned into a succubus while on the material plane, becoming a material plane-native succubus, then are succubi really outsiders from the lower planes? After all, they have quite clearly shown to be capable of coming from other places, so clearly a succubus is not "an outsider from the lower planes", because they have been born elsewhere.

I mean, there's just no way it can relate to species, because species can be introduced into different environments, and then they no longer become "from XYZ location". At that point, you have to start specifying, for example "this is an australian swan, and that is an american swan".

What if the description said "Wild Animal from Africa". Would you think that it meant animal species that inhabit Africa like Lions and Elephants, or would you think that it meant Wild Animals that were born in Africa like... a couple of escaped Polar Bears who gave birth to a 2nd generation Polar Bear? Or how about wild animals that were born in Canada, moved to Africa, then got released somehow, and spent 20 years there until a poacher catches said animal and brings it back to Canada. Would this creature be an Wild Animal from Africa? I mean the Poacher did catch it and bring it from Africa.

I am saying it's the former while you're saying it's the latter (and the 3rd case is just a headscratcher I threw out there). Without further clarification I believe both are valid interpretations, but without further clarification, no one can prove each other wrong. I'm saying "Fiend from the lower planes" means the species of Fiends that inhabit the lower planes, while you're saying it's anyone born in the lower planes.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But I'm not saying I'm wrong either.

[daryen]

Alter self isn’t that powerful. First of all, you can only take the form of something with your same type. Second, your type, subtype, and alignment don’t change.

The point of alter self is to take the form of another creature. You do not become another creature. So, if you are even able to take the form of a dretch, you are not a dretch. You are a whatever you are in the form of a dretch.

Or is there something else that redefined how alter self works? I only have the SRD description.

[Crake]

What if the description said "Wild Animal from Africa". Would you think that it meant animal species that inhabit Africa like Lions and Elephants, or would you think that it meant Wild Animals that were born in Africa like... a couple of escaped Polar Bears who gave birth to a 2nd generation Polar Bear?

I am saying it's the former while you're saying it's the latter. Without further clarification I believe both are valid interpretations, but without further clarification, no one can prove each other wrong. I'm saying "Fiend from the lower planes" means the species of Fiends that inhabit the lower planes, while you're saying it's anyone born in the lower planes.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But I'm not say I'm wrong either.

So if it says "wild animal from africa" does that mean animals exclusive to africa? Or animals that are native to africa, even if they are also native elsewhere? What about introduced species, when do they become considered native? How many generations of polar bears need to be born before they're considered "from africa"? What about a tiger from india? It's a tiger, tigers are from africa, but this tiger comes from, and is native to india, even though the same species is also native to africa?

The problem with your logic is it's too fuzzy and ambiguous. Where is the line drawn with your logic? Mine is clear cut and simple. You must be an outsider, and you must be native to a lower plane, that is to say you were born there, and that you do not have the extraplanar subtype on that plane, in other words: You are from that plane.

[Caelestion]

Dubious legalese like this is why so many "high-op" campaigns are actually just "high-cheese" campaigns instead.

[Thurbane]

Bolding mine, but a tiefling would not qualify for for this, hell, even an efreeti wouldn't qualify, since they aren't from the lower planes, despite being outsiders with the evil subtype.

Although they are evil outsiders, Efreeti don't have the evil subtype.

[Crake]

Although they are evil outsiders, Efreeti don't have the evil subtype.

Huh, you're right, I for some reason always thought they did. Well, it's irrelevant, since the definition of a "fiend" by the monster manual (in the [Evil] subtype) doesn't seem to be an outisder with the [Evil] subtype, but simply any evil outsider, but the requirement of the fiend component from BoVD is to be an outsider from the lower planes, which means technically an aasimar born on the abyss would qualify as a fiend.

[Caelestion]

Technically, it only says that evil outsiders are also called fiends. What it doesn't say is that all evil outsiders are fiends.