How to deal with a Read-Aheader? (Possible Out of the Abyss Spoilers)

[Hesh]

Hi, hope you can help me? I'm DMing for the first time, and jumped in with Out of the Abyss, and although I feel a little over my head at times, I feel happy enough to continue, but it's being dragged diwn by the realisation that one of my players is reading ahead of the adventure, and has a record of doing so: apparently despite having been asked not to. There is some distinct metagaming I think going on, given his build and things he requested during the shopping and downtime. For example, he managed to locate Dawnbringer specifically looking in the spot mentioned in the book.

As such, how do I go about changing the adventure slightly so that there is surprise and 'the correct answer' isn't so obvious?

One of the simplest ways to go about it is by changing up some of the demon princes. Are there any who are integral to the plot? Or any suggestions for how to replace their story arc?

What else is there?

[Armored Walrus]

Kick the player from your game?

If that feels too harsh - "I'm sorry, but I can't run this game for you all. I don't feel I have enough experience to deal with running a module that's already been read by the players."

[zinycor]

Hi, hope you can help me? I'm DMing for the first time, and jumped in with Out of the Abyss, and although I feel a little over my head at times, I feel happy enough to continue, but it's being dragged diwn by the realisation that one of my players is reading ahead of the adventure, and has a record of doing so: apparently despite having been asked not to. There is some distinct metagaming I think going on, given his build and things he requested during the shopping and downtime. For example, he managed to locate Dawnbringer specifically looking in the spot mentioned in the book.

As such, how do I go about changing the adventure slightly so that there is surprise and 'the correct answer' isn't so obvious?

One of the simplest ways to go about it is by changing up some of the demon princes. Are there any who are integral to the plot? Or any suggestions for how to replace their story arc?

What else is there?

I would just not play with this person, reading ahead is cheating and shouldn't be accepted

[Hesh]

You guys aren't helpful.

[othaero]

The simplest answer: Change where things are. Make a simple checklist of things that need to be done before something is able to be done, now im not entirely familiar with the adventure but there should be no way a person should be able to beeline straight to the item.

If one of my players went about and said "I want to search *hiding spot of item* and said spot is not something readily apparant. They would search and not find it there. Is it petty? Probably. But if you asked them not to do it and they keep ignoring you. Well Its totally your prerogative to make the adventure your own.

[Hypersmith]

You guys aren't helpful.

If you want to make changes, make changes. Change maps a bit. Swap stuff around. But I agree with the others. If a player isn't respecting the game, it's logical to kick them. If you are adamant not to, at least talk to them. If you're still adamant, I don't know what to tell you. Overhauling adventures like that, by changing entire arcs, is difficult. At that point, you might as well just homebrew a campaign.

[Armored Walrus]

You guys aren't helpful.

That was actually intended to be helpful. It may not be the solution you want, but, IMO, it's probably the best. You were asked to run this module, presumably, and now you're finding out that the game you're actually running is "Like Out of the Abyss, but homebrew something loosely based on it." That's not what you signed up for and you're well within your rights to not run it.

You can alter it instead, but I feel like you're likely to get a lot of "gotcha" suggestions from others on this board. I don't feel that would be helpful advice either. As soon as the players and DM can't trust each other, or it becomes about the Player vs the DM, the game becomes garbage for everyone involved.

I'm not familiar enough with the module to give you specific advice as to how to shut down this toxic player, so I'll withdraw from the thread, having given you what I thought was the best advice.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Switch the places of key magic items that you can metagame to acquire, have the shopkeepers charge incredible prices for items since supplies are obviously in high demand. Have him roll on a madness table when he acts on his "prophetic dreams" because surely if he dreamed up the location of Dawnbringer he's also dreamed of his untimely death.

Those kinds of things are sure to frustrate the player and have him choose to leave the table himself so you wouldn't have to ask him to leave because he's ruining your fun with his metagaming.

[Angelalex242]

Switch the places of key magic items that you can metagame to acquire, have the shopkeepers charge incredible prices for items since supplies are obviously in high demand. Have him roll on a madness table when he acts on his "prophetic dreams" because surely if he dreamed up the location of Dawnbringer he's also dreamed of his untimely death.

Those kinds of things are sure to frustrate the player and have him choose to leave the table himself so you wouldn't have to ask him to leave because he's ruining your fun with his metagaming.

"A bolt of lightning strikes you as you are inspired to do the right thing. Take 200 points of damage and roll a DC 40 con save. ...Sorry, but you can't be resurrected."

[Hesh]

I volunteered to run a module for a group of players after a long term arc in our usual DM's homebrew campaign came to an end. The player, S, plays in anothers game, and the comment was made over the thought that he read ahead of Minea of Phandelver which made sense in comparison to the fact that 'the right answer' appeared to have been taken within the first few attempts, such as how he guessed next to Dawnbreaker, and then searched along inthe correct way.

Now, I've no wish or desire to kick out someone who reads ahead. Everyone is having fun at the table, reading ahead or otherwise. I'm not having a problems on my side of the screen, apart from I don't everything revealed. I'm comfortable enough with play to introduce a few 'oooh that was unexpected' moments, without having a 'gotcha' moment.

I might be reasonably new to DnD (18 months at best), but I'm aware of the reputation that players of DnD have, maybe incorrectly, of having poor social skills - and kicking out someone of a gaming group that they've enjoyed and been a part of for longer than I've been with them simply because they read ahead is quite possibly the most childish, immature, socially unacceptable thing I can think of in the circumstances. Please don't suggest kicking someone out of a game. I'm adult enough, and capable enough to ensure that if someone was ruining the game I'd get rid of them: but they aren't, and nowhere did i say they were.

And if someone is invested and having fun rolling the dice by reading ahead, so what? He is invested in the game, interacts with the players and NPC's, and not just in a cursory 'Skip Text Sequence' that you'd find when you play a video game.

What I want is to be able to shake it up slightly enough that S isn't going to be reading ahead, but keep it enough on track that I can easily refer to OotA (and after reading a thread recently, I know what I'm going to be doing regarding the end fight, re Demon FFA).

Hence the OP asking if there is a Demon Prince who is easy enough to switch out, and maybe homebrew a monster. Zuggtmoy feels like she would be my first swap, but I'm wondering how integral she is and what story hooks I'd need to work out.

[SkylarkR6]

The next battle he is involved with, have dawnbringer shatter at a suitably epic moment. When he questions tell him Deneir, the god of books, placed a fake there to punish those who dare read from his books of foreknowledge. Stick the real sword elsewhere and tell him to stop metagaming like a tool.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I might be reasonably new to DnD (18 months at best), but I'm aware of the reputation that players of DnD have, maybe incorrectly, of having poor social skills - and kicking out someone of a gaming group that they've enjoyed and been a part of for longer than I've been with them simply because they read ahead is quite possibly the most childish, immature, socially unacceptable thing I can think of in the circumstances. Please don't suggest kicking someone out of a game. I'm adult enough, and capable enough to ensure that if someone was ruining the game I'd get rid of them: but they aren't, and nowhere did i say they were.

Not wanting to spend time with someone who's frustrating you is an adult decision.

Asking for advice and then calling the people who gave you a genuine answer children for understanding that much is quite possibly the most childish, immature and socially unacceptable thing I can think of in the circumstances.

If you're bothered enough by it to ask for help in correcting it and saying that your experience is being "brought down" that's a sign that if it continues you will end up not having fun anymore. The fun for the DM, in my opinion, is to lead people through a story and watch how it's shaped. If someone at the table is walking ahead of you and saying "this is how it goes" maybe you shouldn't play with them.

You might not be DM material.

[Unoriginal]

Hi, hope you can help me? I'm DMing for the first time, and jumped in with Out of the Abyss, and although I feel a little over my head at times, I feel happy enough to continue, but it's being dragged diwn by the realisation that one of my players is reading ahead of the adventure, and has a record of doing so: apparently despite having been asked not to. There is some distinct metagaming I think going on, given his build and things he requested during the shopping and downtime. For example, he managed to locate Dawnbringer specifically looking in the spot mentioned in the book.

As such, how do I go about changing the adventure slightly so that there is surprise and 'the correct answer' isn't so obvious?

One of the simplest ways to go about it is by changing up some of the demon princes. Are there any who are integral to the plot? Or any suggestions for how to replace their story arc?

What else is there?


You should probably talk with the player and ask him why he's doing that.

But if you don't want that, changing the Demon Princes seem like a good idea. You shouldn't worry about their place in the narrative, just craft a new one. And probably change all of them.

Also, change the NPCs and the sidequests. Don't be afraid to change as much as possible.


Do you want a list of suggestions for who you could swap?

[Hesh]

Ideally, yes please. Switching up the demon princes with some ideas for how they interact would be excellent. I'd rather not be using a character associated with Zuggtmoy if I remove her and replace them with Pazuzu, for example.

Ront has become a Chosen of Baphomet currently, basically the stats of a Tanarukk, Eldeth, Szarith, Stool, and the male Gnome Twin has been killed, if that's relevant. They are level 8 currently.

[Unoriginal]

Ideally, yes please. Switching up the demon princes with some ideas for how they interact would be excellent. I'd rather not be using a character associated with Zuggtmoy if I remove her and replace them with Pazuzu, for example.

Ront has become a Chosen of Baphomet currently, basically the stats of a Tanarukk, Eldeth, Szarith, Stool, and the male Gnome Twin has been killed, if that's relevant. They are level 8 currently.

Well, two suggestions I can give right now, but I don't know which consequences it would have:

Swap Graz'zt with Raxivort, creator of the Xvarts (from Volo's Guide)

Swap Demogorgon with Dagon

Swap Yeehnoguu with Laogzed, demon-god of the Troglodytes

[BlackbirdXX]

Is it possible the player is simply a fan of the game and has seen any number of the various Youtube, Twitch, podcast real plays of the published mods? Man, you gents are harsh. :) Of course it would have been nice for the player to advise you of that fact.

OP, while it seems like people are being harsh in suggesting you kick him... it's because when you have DM'd long enough you will ultimately meet or run a game for a player that IS willing to straight up cheat/ruin things and it does eventually kill the fun for the whole group even if not at first. BUT, giving the player the benefit on the doubt, AND trying to stay mature about being a new DM in an established group is to me, a sign of a GOOD DM in the making... even if us old farts just don't have patience for the BS anymore. :)

I don't know the mod in question and can't help with specifics. But you have the right idea. Without getting crazy, change some general stuff up. If a monster/demon/devil has a weakness or resist... swap them. Move treasure parcels around just a bit, even to the other side of the room. I would suggest against a major rewrite.... IF you have to put that much WORK into a rewrite to keep things 'fair' then it will ultimately ruin your fun.

Simple changes are far easier to remember and make as needed. Mention to the player(s) nicely, that you have made minor changes, and if they have previous experience (from playing or viewing) they shouldn't act/meta game on it because it could accidently cause the group harm. Basically if he/she thinks you have put a deadly trap where there use to be treasure, he/she SHOULD stop trying to 'solve' everything in their favor. If that doesn't help than you may have to refer to the aforementioned advise. :(

[willdaBEAST]

Now, I've no wish or desire to kick out someone who reads ahead. Everyone is having fun at the table, reading ahead or otherwise. I'm not having a problems on my side of the screen, apart from I don't everything revealed. I'm comfortable enough with play to introduce a few 'oooh that was unexpected' moments, without having a 'gotcha' moment.

I might be reasonably new to DnD (18 months at best), but I'm aware of the reputation that players of DnD have, maybe incorrectly, of having poor social skills - and kicking out someone of a gaming group that they've enjoyed and been a part of for longer than I've been with them simply because they read ahead is quite possibly the most childish, immature, socially unacceptable thing I can think of in the circumstances. Please don't suggest kicking someone out of a game. I'm adult enough, and capable enough to ensure that if someone was ruining the game I'd get rid of them: but they aren't, and nowhere did i say they were.
I think you should have mentioned that you don't want to kick him out of the group in your OP. You said that you were a new DM and I don't think is unreasonable to think that a new DM wouldn't consider kicking the offending player out, they may try to make things work no matter the toll on themselves. Your comments on the decision to kick a player out who is at best compromising the integrity of the DM/player relationship as being childish is not constructive. You're welcome to disagree with using that as a response, but don't belittle DMs who do not tolerate potentially game breaking behavior.

I would recommend having a one on one talk with the player. Be honest and direct. Tell him he has a history of reading ahead in modules and that you suspect that he's doing the same here. You don't necessarily have to give him an ultimatum, but I would make it clear that his behavior is a problem for you. That is the adult way to approach the situation, changing the module is roundabout and while valid, can easily be perceived as a passive aggressive response. As others have pointed out, it may escalate the tension between you and your player.

I've played along side players who are familiar with the module, the onus is on them not to spoil things for the rest of the party. They should not blurt out the solution to a puzzle, or guide the party through an optimal path. To me that's an unspoken rule, but I can see how it might make sense to mention it in session 0. To me the same is true of monster stat blocks. Even if you as a player know a creature's weakness, you have to weigh whether your character would know that.

[Kane0]

- shuffle up the contents of the book. Just moving a couple things around or substituting in creatures/items/locations for others should be enough to throw him off, even if it means his information is now only mostly right it should be enough breathing room for you. This is a little bit of increased workload for yourself but a good thing for any DM to learn, as well as remaining fair to everyone.

- if he know about the book, the book knows about him. Take away his advantage by having the creatures aware of and prepared for the player. This is obviously more adversarial but hopefully he will understand that this is happening so he will be challenged and that his behaviour is frowned upon. Consider carefully before you choose to do this.

- If he knows ahead, let everyone else know too. This again takes away his advantage by giving the same information to everyone. Then all you have to do is adjust the difficulty to suit the new level the party is at. This works well for casual games with players that arent going to murder you for spoilers, so judge your group before proceeding.

[Armored Walrus]

Hi, hope you can help me? I'm DMing for the first time, and jumped in with Out of the Abyss, and although I feel a little over my head at times, I feel happy enough to continue, but it's being dragged diwn by the realisation that one of my players is reading ahead of the adventure, and has a record of doing so: apparently despite having been asked not to. There is some distinct metagaming I think going on, given his build and things he requested during the shopping and downtime. For example, he managed to locate Dawnbringer specifically looking in the spot mentioned in the book.

As such, how do I go about changing the adventure slightly so that there is surprise and 'the correct answer' isn't so obvious?

One of the simplest ways to go about it is by changing up some of the demon princes. Are there any who are integral to the plot? Or any suggestions for how to replace their story arc?

What else is there?

So, first, in my defense, my advice was given based on the information in this post, and the title, only. No other elaboration or explanation had happened at that point. Also, to my error, my advice was given without context or without soliciting any clarification from OP. That being said, I'd like to explain my thinking, because, despite the fact that the population of D&D 5e players might skew toward people who had a hard time fitting in other social situations (I don't know this, the only data I have are my own experiences, but I suspect the same is true of OP (who is, after all, also a D&D player)) I'm not one of them, thank you very much. I'd rather build an understanding of where I'm coming from so that my advice can be put in context.

So here goes (Gods I hope this is helpful and not just flamebait):

Assumption 1: You weren't quite sure what advice you were looking for.

I'll submit as evidence the fact that you asked one question in your thread title, and then followed up with four more questions in the body of your post. (I won't consider "I hope you can help me?" to be a question.) The questions I chose to answer were the following - "How to deal with a Read-Aheader?" and, "What else is there?" OP has clarified since then what specific advice was sought by this thread, but I din't have that information when I posted.

Assumption 2: You had a problem player that was ruining your experience/the experience of the other players at your table.

As evidence, most people on this board don't generally ask how to
"Deal with" a player that is bringing joy to their table. Further,
"I feel happy enough to continue, but it's being dragged diwn by..." reinforces that impression, in my mind.

Assumption 3: The player had been asked to stop, and did not or would not change his/her behavior.

I don't think I need to explain where I got this impression from:
"...has a record of doing so: apparently despite having been asked not to

Assumption 4: OP is new as a DM, and sought advice from folks who have been in his situation before


"I'm DMing for the first time, and jumped in with Out of the Abyss, and although I feel a little over my head at times...

So here's the situation I was presented with, (at least, this is how I interpreted what I was presented with). "I'm a new DM, but have been a player. One of my players is disrupting my game by metagaming. He's read the module I signed up to run, and is using that knowledge to gain an unfair advantage. The player has been asked to stop, and other players are aware of the problem (presumably they are not happy about it, else why are we commenting on it and asking for advice on a board, but those are further assumptions on my part, I guess). Despite having been asked to stop, the player either straight up refuses, or just can't help himself. In your experience in these situations, what solution has been the most effective?"

All right, so in my experience (and this is not coming from the point of view of a mother's basement-dwelling misanthrope with an overweening ego. I actually make my living by getting along with people.), a player at the table of any game, whose behavior is causing a problem for the other adult players at the table, who has been asked to stop but can't or won't, can't be fixed by changing the game. It's highly likely that your best option is to simply not game with that person any more, but maybe golf with them or hang glide with them or go out drinking with them.

Now it turns out my assumptions were wrong, (I guess?) and my advice was rather terse, (this board, IME tends to prefer clarity over quantity ( many of us are, after all, people who can argue for three weeks over the implications of a single word in a 300+ page long book, or even over the lack thereof)) so I understand how I may have come off as the worst example of a neck beard-wearing, rules-lawyering, grognard who's convinced my way is the only way and anyone that doesn't like it can hit the bricks. But that's not the spirit in which it was intended. Rather it was intended in the spirit of one who's been in situations similar to yours, has attempted to fix it by slopping dozens of hours of extra work on my plate, rather than address the behavior at its source, and then seen my game dissolve or get derailed anyway, and wants to save you the trouble.

If that's not the advice you wanted, so be it, but I've seen your username in posts before. You had to know going in that you were going to get advice you didn't agree with. It's enough, in my opinion, to simply ignore advice that doesn't seem to apply to you, rather than resort to ad hominem arguments, however obliquely they were presented.

As for the elaborations you've made since, I'm not going to take the time to respond to them line by line, but hopefully you'll re read your OP and consider how one might have reached the conclusions I reached. Perhaps I would have given more appropriate advice if your OP had been written something like this:
Title: How to keep OotA fun for a player already familiar with it? (warning, potential spoilers)

"Hey folks, I'm a new DM looking for some advice. One of my players, I've discovered, is already familiar with the module I am running for the group. I don't mind him having metagame knowledge, and it's not been a problem so far at our table, but I'd like to introduce a few twists to keep the experience fresh for this player. Anyone familiar enough with this module to suggest some subtle changes I can make so that this player's experience isn't totally spoiled?"

TL;DR You got answers to the questions you asked. In the future, don't hesitate to ask for advice again, but realize every reader only has two resources from which to draw their answers- the information you actually provide in your post, and their own experiences. You're likely to get more finely-tuned advice if you provide finely-tuned information.

I can't speak for anyone but myself (which I've done above) but I'll also submit this. If you research D&D's history at all, you'll find that at the beginning, and presumably still today at some tables, D&D was played at conventions and local meetings as a competitive game. It sprang up from wargaming after all. Showing up to a convention having read the module being played, was strictly verboten as it was straight up dishonest cheating. At least some of the advice OP has gotten in this thread is being given through that lens. (not mine, I've never even been to a gaming convention.)

[MxKit]

I would recommend having a one on one talk with the player. Be honest and direct. Tell him he has a history of reading ahead in modules and that you suspect that he's doing the same here. You don't necessarily have to give him an ultimatum, but I would make it clear that his behavior is a problem for you...

I've played along side players who are familiar with the module, the onus is on them not to spoil things for the rest of the party. They should not blurt out the solution to a puzzle, or guide the party through an optimal path. To me that's an unspoken rule, but I can see how it might make sense to mention it in session 0. To me the same is true of monster stat blocks. Even if you as a player know a creature's weakness, you have to weigh whether your character would know that.

Agreed with this, only you don't even have to bring up the "reading ahead" part if you're not 100% sure that's what's going on, or if you think he'd get defensive or deny it.

Since the second paragraph is super true no matter what, I think you're right that reading ahead isn't even the problem. After all, anyone who's played in or especially run a module themself before is likely going to be familiar with it. Just knowing the module isn't an issue. Have a one-on-one talk with him and frankly state that you'd like him to minimize his metagaming, that it's affecting your enjoyment and that you want all the players to be on an even playing field.

Depending on how he responds, it might not be a problem in the future. Or you might find out that he really is someone you don't want in your game, if he reacts with anger towards you, or mockery, or belittling, or some other response that takes him from, eh, a little bit of trouble with the metagaming to a Major Problem Player. If he just brushes it off or agrees to stop metagaming but blatantly keeps doing it, that's when you'll have to let your whole group know you're changing things up from the way they are in the module.

[Armored Walrus]

Or you might find out that he really is someone you don't want in your game, if he reacts with anger towards you, or mockery, or belittling, or some other response that takes him from, eh, a little bit of trouble with the metagaming to a Major Problem Player. If he just brushes it off or agrees to stop metagaming but blatantly keeps doing it, that's when you'll have to let your whole group know you're changing things up from the way they are in the module.

If this turns out to be the case, altering the module is unlikely to fix the problem. IME, a player who's willing to blatantly ignore the requests of fellow players, or who's willing to metagame to that extent in order to gain some advantage on them, is also the type of player who's going to go ballistic if you change the module. Or, silently resent the unspoken reprimand, and disrupt the game in other ways. Or, simply leave with no explanation.

[Coranhann]

So, you are trying to be nice keeping the player at your table. Ok. Possible constructive solution :

The main problem with his action is that he is stealing opportunity for other players to have cool moments when THEY find or figure out stuff.

And while you are nice, you shouldn't over complicate your job to cater to a cheater's need.

So the solution could be as follow:

From now on, every time he finds something, legit or not, he's wrong. The answer was something else, the item was somewhere else. Now, just listen to the other players and once one of them suggest a smart answer / place for the item, BAM they are right.

You allow the rest of your players group to feel good and epic.
You don't add a massive amount of work for yourself.

[MxKit]

If this turns out to be the case, altering the module is unlikely to fix the problem. IME, a player who's willing to blatantly ignore the requests of fellow players, or who's willing to metagame to that extent in order to gain some advantage on them, is also the type of player who's going to go ballistic if you change the module. Or, silently resent the unspoken reprimand, and disrupt the game in other ways. Or, simply leave with no explanation.

IMO, you're right, but OP seems very disinclined to kick the player from the game, so I tried to only suggest it in the event of a really extreme case.

I will say that if he agrees to stop metagaming and seems sincere but continues to do so anyway, he might be the sort of person who just can't figure out how not to use OOC information ICly, who has no real understanding of how to separate his own knowledge from his character's. That's something he can learn with time and reminders, but the DM has to be willing to remind him, and he has to actually, legitimately be willing to try to learn.

Unfortunately, unless either that's the case or he agrees to stop metagaming so much and actually does improve, this is probably going to be a situation where he's just not going to improve, and if OP is unwilling to kick him from the game... Well, I'd still suggest that he do so in the event that the player becomes combative or flat-out unpleasant when talked to, since that goes from "metagaming problem" to "abrasive, combative player problem," but if kicking is out then all OP can really do is try to minimize whatever negative effects his actions are having on the game.

ETA: I sort of lied. OP, one more thing that might be worth doing... Ask yourself if the reason you're bothered is because it's ruining your fun, or you're worried about it ruining the other players' fun. And be honest with yourself as to the answer. If and only if it's not actually something you'd be bothered by if all the other players were totally cool with it, it could be worth talking to the other players about it as well. Let them know they can speak freely, maybe even talk to them one-on-one privately, ask them if they're okay with the metagaming. If they really don't care, and you really don't care, then you don't necessarily have a problem; just adjust the difficulty of encounters slightly to match the fact that things are a little easier for the party due to OOC knowledge. But if the players are bothered and the metagamer isn't interested in changing his ways, you really might have to consider uninviting the guy. I get it that you don't want to be impolite if it's only bothering you, but if it's not only bothering you, you might have to change how you approach the situation.

[Armored Walrus]

To OP, a potentially easier option than changing the overarching plot is simply spending an hour so before each session looking at where the characters are likely to go, and seeing what opportunities you have to move things around or change encounters. I've done that with plenty of modules. Changing something like the identity of the major BBEG is going to mean a full rewrite - now, before you have another session, so you can make sure that events leading up to the change make sense. But I don't think you need to go that far.

Alternative maps are easy enough to find online, and every encounter can either have the main monster changed completely, or nerfed slightly and minions added to change the dynamic. Rather than moving treasures from their known locations to some other location, I'd remove the known location completely and put in some new locations to hold those treasures.

This has the added benefit of being modular, so you don't have to do it every session. Many things will still work as written, and then every once in awhile it will be changed.

[FreddyNoNose]

I personally would talk first then kick. If you aren't willing to deal with the cheater by talking or kicking out of the group, you could ask everyone at the game what to do about it. Let them decide. It is their fun that is potentially being ruined by this.

Changing things is the usual other option.

Hey, you could let them all read the material!

If you create your own material, this usually isn't a problem.

[Toadkiller]

The next battle he is involved with, have dawnbringer shatter at a suitably epic moment. When he questions tell him Deneir, the god of books, placed a fake there to punish those who dare read from his books of foreknowledge. Stick the real sword elsewhere and tell him to stop metagaming like a tool.

This is inspired.

[The Shadowdove]

Blame it on the elves.

The drow from the original prison camp could have somehow gotten ahead of the party and done something to mix up the next segment of the adventure.

They murdered/captured/and or enslaved the npcs you needed to talk to. They happened across the magical loot that was in that secret cubby. They even left a message to remind you that they're still hunting you down.

Add another adventuring group. These adventures are on a quest and aren't hostile. They have no interest in taking on a bunch of malnourished stragglers in the underdark. They have that essential item, or access to that information you need. The party now has a different dilemma should they want to progress.

Make the next magical item sentient. It prefers an owner that has specific characteristics which your metagaming player does not have. There's a sentient hand crossbows in adventurers league which removes it's +2 bonus and other magical abilities if the player does not pamper or, or if they don't share an alignment.

The random encounters table has all sorts of options that are not hostile monsters. It's the underdark. There are so many natural phenomenon that could seriously hamper, if not straight up kill adventurers. Use these, especially the magical pockets that disrupt magic, to throw off predictable points in the adventure.

Read the underdark entry on the forgotten realms wiki. It tells you all about the upper middle and lower underdark. As well as a lot of the threats to be had. There are different civilizations that are fun to throw it that might not make appearances in OOTA.

Also, not all drow are alike. The various drow cities have different strengths and weaknesses. Some are more evil than others in certain regards, even. Perhaps you find more drow from a different city who may or may not help.

Even the drow don't know everything about the underdark,despite most being trained in the academies to survive the harsh environment. They send out expeditions as well. Drow have adventurers. They have patrols around their cities, many made up of students. Perhaps they offer something in return for the player's help. They may even be desperate. Maybe they have a bone to pick with other adventurers or drow who are hunting you.


Tons of fun options to add in that don't take away from the game.

Good luck.

[Lombra]

Whenever he metagames actions, make them not pay-off. If he knows where to locate magic Items, let him do so, but don't make him find them oncr he reaches the place. If he metagames items to prepare for a fight, change the encounter's weaknesses. Award him less, if not zero XP for encounters he metagamed for.

But most importantly, talk to him. Tell hin to stop metagaming, because you are a beginner DM and don't know how to deal with it, amd you'll have to make bad and cheap adjustments (like having some items stolen) that will ruin the fun for everyone else.

[Shulk]

If you KNOW you have a metagamer in your preset module, make efforts to change the module yourself so their reading ahead is useless, Make it so Locations of secret doors or magic items are moved around, Put traps and mimics in the locations where those things originally were, add new gimmicks to traps, change up the encounters somewhat if you see the character planning ahead with no IC clue of what is coming up, Punish their metagaming, or make it not work. Change the layout, have some fun with them. If all else fails, kick them out.

This is basically a summary of previous advice, but it's still helpful, possibly.

[strangebloke]

There are always three ways to handle a problem. The first is the high road, as most have suggested. Tell him you won't be bothered to deal with his nonsense.

The second method is to passive-agressively try and subvert his plan. This is your plan. As to advice on this topic... eh. Move things around. Do encounters out of order. Make tweaks to any kind of social encounter. I'm not familiar with OotA but this will probably be a lot of work, so I honestly can't remember it.

Option three is to sink to his level. People scorn this option but I view it as completely valid. The best method of doing this has been already detailed by Skylark:


The next battle he is involved with, have dawnbringer shatter at a suitably epic moment. When he questions tell him Deneir, the god of books, placed a fake there to punish those who dare read from his books of foreknowledge. Stick the real sword elsewhere and tell him to stop metagaming like a tool.

[dreast]

I'd cast my vote for "Change the game." If your player is reading the campaign, use elements suggested in the book and make those the focus of the adventure.

For Out of the Abyss:

a) Introduce Grazzt and his schemes at some point, or send the players south to deal with the undead elder brain controlled by Orcus (see Volo's Guide for some pointers on this one, since it involves an illithid colony; the elder brain can have a couple of undeadish qualities added, like necrotic and poison immunity, without changing much else). Reading ahead won't help with either of these.

b) Use ideas from other books or modules without revealing where you got them from. Old AD&D 2e modules are very easy to convert to 5e; see the classic "Night Below" module (not hard to find online) for some great ideas on fun encounters (although you'll have to tone the treasures waaaaay down). You can go all-out and have the aboleths build their city around Demogorgon's lair in the Darklake, trying to channel his power into their own ends. Or use the Baldur's Gate 2 underdark section as an inspiration; you can find maps and plot descriptions online, and it's again pretty easy to 5e-ify them.

c) Use companion resources from the DM's Guild if conversion looks like too much work. I know of several OOTA expansions on that site, although these tend to be a bit of a crapshoot.

When in doubt, send them all to hell. Which is admittedly pretty appropriate to this campaign.

Remember: You are the DM. You ARE the game.

[Willie the Duck]

Deeply suspect OP is not reading after it was explained that complaining about the type of advice he was receiving, and calling said advice childish, immature, socially unacceptable was in fact childish, immature, and socially unacceptable.

But let's try to salvage the thread and do something productive.

Here is the thing--despite everyone being in agreement that it is just a game, you can't actually win this game, and that we are all adults and should not measure our self worth on success at a silly little elf-game (much less success when giving oneself an unfair leg up)... at least half of the groups I have been in, someone has cheated at some point.

I don't know why, in all cases.

One group has an occasional member (he travels for work, and games with us when in town) is a perennial cheater--of the 'I rolled a 14 (which someone sees is in fact a 3), whom we just kind of let do so. Since he'll be gone again next week, we just don't care.
Another (playing a healbot that I eventually realized was casting more spells/day than possible), I actually confronted, and he admitted it. The rest of the group are die-hard non-optimizers who often play 'deliberately chaotic-stupid,' and kept getting wiped out with the previous DM who played the modules straight from the book and didn't modulate the challenge to fit their playstyle. I explained that I wanted a fair game, so that I could incentivize everyone else rising to the occasion, and to craft my game to foster a acceptable balance between letting the chips fall where they may and letting people play the type of game they want to play. In effect, his cheating was just conflicting with my own attempts to fix the problem. I believe he stopped after that point.


I don't know what it is that compels what I'd otherwise call reasonable adults to cheat, but it's apparently enough that most gamers I know have a story (admittedly a whole lot of us started gaming before we got to adult, so maybe that has something to do with it). Regardless, I think the true mature adult answer is to open the communication channels with this player. Maybe there's a reason. Maybe he already read the thing and didn't want to nix your plans. Maybe he just can't handle losing characters. The only way to find out is talk. And then, yes, make sure he knows he's not to spoil anyone else's fun--his character is now exempt from the biggest payoffs and he is not to spoil any secrets, and if he can't stop using inside information, you are going to have to change where the good treasure is and who the right people to talk to are, and maybe the next time he knows where Dawnbringer or whatever is, the treasure chest is going to instead be a mimic. And if things don't change, you do have to have a group meeting about what you want to do, and then you decide whether you can work him or not.

[Kalashak]

I might be reasonably new to DnD (18 months at best), but I'm aware of the reputation that players of DnD have, maybe incorrectly, of having poor social skills - and kicking out someone of a gaming group that they've enjoyed and been a part of for longer than I've been with them simply because they read ahead is quite possibly the most childish, immature, socially unacceptable thing I can think of in the circumstances. Please don't suggest kicking someone out of a game. I'm adult enough, and capable enough to ensure that if someone was ruining the game I'd get rid of them: but they aren't, and nowhere did i say they were.
It's an odd decision to imply other people have poor social skills while you insult them because you don't like the advice they gave you.

[Reversefigure4]

If you're wondering how why there's so much bile being heaped against your reader, given you're a new DM, it's frequently considered to be one of the worst forms of metagaming since it renders the adventure pointless. I can't comment on OotA specifically, but in many places you can end up bypassing huge amounts of the module (a quest that requires you to help the Guard Captain, so he'll tell you where Object X is, can be avoided entirely by just going to Object X's location by knowing it automatically). This is annoying because:
- It defeats one of the points of running a module, which is to make things easier on the GM so less prep work is required.
- It removes the joy of discovery or clever problem solving for other players, since the reader always knows the right answer.
- It breaks the challenge of the module, since the reader can be perfectly prepared for every problem.

Asking players to not read-ahead is a perfectly valid option, if you're not aware.

As to avoiding the problem, presuming that you want to play around it, there's complex and then there's simple. It's a question of how much work you want to do.

Simple:
- Move key objects around. Object X is in Room A17 instead of B4.
- Change the enemies just slightly. 'It's a Lamash Demon. It's just like a Malash Demon, only it's weak to acid instead of fire'. This dodges around the player who 'knows' the entire floor and prepares nothing but fire spells.
- Change monsters out for other similarly CRed creatures, then alter the story slightly to match. Instead of a necromancer with rooms full of undead, it's a mad scientist with rooms full of plant monsters. Same character and motivations, different class and abilities.
- The great part is that you don't have to do this for everything - just enough that the player realises his secret knowledge is unreliable. Just like every other player at the table, he's now guessing at what's coming up.

Complex:
- Alter the plot. Change the order of the adventures around. Substitute key NPCs. Change their motivations and their characters accordingly.
- Add in, remove, or change the adventure. Drop Floor B of the dungeon altogether and replace it with Floor D from a different module.

Be warned, however, that many of the players who read ahead do so in order to gain an advantage, and may complain bitterly that the GM is 'doing it wrong' if the story no longer matches the published module.

[2D8HP]

I've bought and read some of most every WotC 5e book that has been printed, and I have "read ahead" of some modules I've later played, but I don't remember much when I do, seems to me that the problem is the player is remembering and using what they've read in play.

I suggest telling that player to be the DM, if they want to know the module so well.

Make a character sheet and get ready to play, if the read-aheader balks tell the other players your on strike so a certain someone either needs to step up and DM or needs to knock it off.

The only other solution I can think of is to not use published modules, or change the set-ups, you can use multiple modules and mix them up, but that's more work for you, make read-ahead a DM at least some of the time.

[Armored Walrus]

The only other solution I can think of is to not use published modules, or change the set-ups, you can use multiple modules and mix them up, but that's more work for you, make read-ahead a DM at least some of the time.

That's significantly more work. Although altering the existing campaign (and let's be honest, OotA is not a module, it's a campaign) is probably just as much work. I really like the suggestion of just asking that player to DM the module. Not sure it would actually work, but it's a potential solution that hadn't been brought up yet in this thread.

However, I share Willie's suspicion that we're only talking to ourselves at this point.

[Hesh]

Deeply suspect OP is not reading after it was explained that complaining about the type of advice he was receiving, and calling said advice childish, immature, socially unacceptable was in fact childish, immature, and socially unacceptable.
OP is in fact reading. Just refraining from responding while I weigh up my options. Kicking people out of a game should be the absolute last option you should use when dealing. I'm frankly shocked at how quick you all are to suggest kicking people out.

Maybe I'm just a nicer person than you all, and I'm okay with that.


But let's try to salvage the thread and do something productive.

Here is the thing--despite everyone being in agreement that it is just a game, you can't actually win this game, and that we are all adults and should not measure our self worth on success at a silly little elf-game (much less success when giving oneself an unfair leg up)... at least half of the groups I have been in, someone has cheated at some point.

I don't know why, in all cases.

One group has an occasional member (he travels for work, and games with us when in town) is a perennial cheater--of the 'I rolled a 14 (which someone sees is in fact a 3), whom we just kind of let do so. Since he'll be gone again next week, we just don't care.
Another (playing a healbot that I eventually realized was casting more spells/day than possible), I actually confronted, and he admitted it. The rest of the group are die-hard non-optimizers who often play 'deliberately chaotic-stupid,' and kept getting wiped out with the previous DM who played the modules straight from the book and didn't modulate the challenge to fit their playstyle. I explained that I wanted a fair game, so that I could incentivize everyone else rising to the occasion, and to craft my game to foster a acceptable balance between letting the chips fall where they may and letting people play the type of game they want to play. In effect, his cheating was just conflicting with my own attempts to fix the problem. I believe he stopped after that point.


I don't know what it is that compels what I'd otherwise call reasonable adults to cheat, but it's apparently enough that most gamers I know have a story (admittedly a whole lot of us started gaming before we got to adult, so maybe that has something to do with it). Regardless, I think the true mature adult answer is to open the communication channels with this player. Maybe there's a reason. Maybe he already read the thing and didn't want to nix your plans. Maybe he just can't handle losing characters. The only way to find out is talk. And then, yes, make sure he knows he's not to spoil anyone else's fun--his character is now exempt from the biggest payoffs and he is not to spoil any secrets, and if he can't stop using inside information, you are going to have to change where the good treasure is and who the right people to talk to are, and maybe the next time he knows where Dawnbringer or whatever is, the treasure chest is going to instead be a mimic. And if things don't change, you do have to have a group meeting about what you want to do, and then you decide whether you can work him or not.
Thank you. This was more helpful than saying S can't play any more.


It's an odd decision to imply other people have poor social skills while you insult them because you don't like the advice they gave you.
I think kicking people out of a game (read, game) is something that's more childish than simply continuing to have fun, while discouraging them from reading ahead.

[The Shadowdove]

I honestly think it's fair to simply ask this player not to read ahead. If they're mature enough and respect the kind of table you're trying to run, there should be no confrontation.

[Kalashak]

I think kicking people out of a game (read, game) is something that's more childish than simply continuing to have fun, while discouraging them from reading ahead.
Yes, that was clear from your post
My point is that saying you're just nicer than everyone else or that they're just socially maladjusted or childish is, in fact, an example of that poor understanding of social etiquette you were insulting people over. Maybe people should have made it more clear that you should talk to this person before kicking them out but no matter what the game is, if someone comes looking for advice on how to deal with a cheater, 'stop playing with them' is going to be a common response.

[Greywander]

I have neither played nor DMed any modules, but if I were to do so, here's how I'd go about it.

If it was my first time DMing a module I was unfamiliar with, I would probably play it straight.

If I had played or DMed a module before, I would consider changing perhaps two or three things. Especially if I knew I had players that were familiar with the module.
Move an event up, or push it back. (The dragon attacks the castle before you save the princess.)
Change the location of an event, item, or location. (The spooky castle is now in the swamp instead of on the mountain.)
Replace one character with an other. (The lich is now a death knight).
Swap the allegiance of two characters. (The trusted ally is now a traitor, the traitor is now an ally.)
Insert a new element. (There's now a wizard tower in the hills. What's inside? Are they friend or foe?)
Remove an element. (Prince Charming does not exist, and as such can't help you escape the prison.)
Rework an element. (The dragonslayer sword is found shattered into pieces. Can you reforge it?)
Smaller tweaks, like adding traps or monsters, or changing the type of monster so that different tactics are required.

The key here is to change a few details while leaving the overarching story intact. It's like how a number of videogames let you do things "out of order", or take different paths to beat the game. For example, in Ocarina of Time you can actually finish the Spirit Temple before even entering the Shadow Temple. Same story, different details.

If I were playing a module I was familiar with, I would assume that the DM had (potentially) made a few changes just like I would have, and approach the game knowing that my foreknowledge might be "inaccurate". Sure, maybe I "know" the door to the vault isn't trapped, but it's entirely plausible that the DM decided to add traps anyway, despite what the module says.

To the OP, I would definitely talk to this player and explain how their metagaming is ruining the fun for both you and the other players (assuming this is true) and ask if he can hold himself back. Ask him honestly if he's able to stop himself from metagaming (some people can't help themselves even if they want to). If he agrees to stop, and is able to do so, then great.

But if he refuses, admits he can't, or agrees to stop but then doesn't, inform him up front that you will be making some tweaks to the module, and that he cannot trust his metagame knowledge or else it could put him in a very bad position. Tell him to assume that anything he knows could be changed, and so it would behoove him to discover this information in-character first just to make sure. If you do this, you don't even need to actually change anything as long as he stays in line.

If he starts metagaming again, and it's bad enough that you feel like you need to do something, then perhaps see if you can tweak something on the spot so that he falls flat as a result of metagaming. If he challenges you, tell him that you told him up front that you might be changing things.

Hopefully this will be enough and you are able to work things out so everyone can have fun.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe I'm just a nicer person than you all, and I'm okay with that.

You just insulted a whole thread of people who were trying to help.

If I were you, I would reconsider that statement.


Kicking someone out of a game is what you do when they're taking the fun away from the table, after having talked to them about the issues and tried to come with a satisfying resolution.

[Hesh]

You just insulted a whole thread of people who were trying to help.

If I were you, I would reconsider that statement.


Kicking someone out of a game is what you do when they're taking the fun away from the table, after having talked to them about the issues and tried to come with a satisfying resolution.
Feel free to be insulted if you think that kicking someone out of a game or downing tools simply because someone read a book is anything remotely nice, rather than contemplating how to make it so that the game can continue.


Kick the player from your game?

If that feels too harsh - "I'm sorry, but I can't run this game for you all. I don't feel I have enough experience to deal with running a module that's already been read by the players."

Let's just remind outselves of the first post; which was then clarified to be written from a point of ignorance where Armored Walrus didn't know enough it to comment, and yet they still did, and said to kick out the player.

That's really, really nasty. Is this the MO of the forum as well, to simply complain about having your actions called out as being not-nice or unhelpful? For future reference.

Thank you Greywander. And everyone else who has contributed, even if in parts it was unhelpful. I have a few ideas about where to go forwards.

I'm still missing information that I did ask in the OP, and that is about what demon lords could be replaced, and what effect it would have on who the party meet.

[Daithi]

Beat the souless ginger like a Read-Aheader stepchild?

[Greywander]

Change the name of something. (Demon Lord Grag'neraz is now Tal'anon. This "Tal'anon" sure sounds like a swell guy, I'm sure we can trust him.)

^Forgot this one. Just changing the name of something or someone can completely negate metagaming until they figure out who they really are.


Let's just remind outselves of the first post; which was then clarified to be written from a point of ignorance where Armored Walrus didn't know enough it to comment, and yet they still did, and said to kick out the player.

That's really, really nasty. Is this the MO of the forum as well, to simply complain about having your actions called out as being not-nice or unhelpful? For future reference.
It seems like this whole thread started off on the wrong foot. Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt and dial things back a bit.

I read Armored Walrus's explanation, and it seemed reasonable to me, even if his original comment was a bit terse. Of course, the proper answer is always to talk to the player first and try to work things out, but sometimes a player is so toxic and uncooperative that the only option left is to kick them. Playing, and especially DMing, D&D is a huge investment, and neither the players nor the DM are obligated to put up with a toxic player.

As far as I'm aware, though, many disruptive players aren't actually bad people, they just want to play a different game from everyone else. Some people want a tactical combat game, some people want a free-for-all murderhobo sandbox, and some people want Shakespeare. It's little wonder that problems can crop up if the players and DM don't effectively communicate what sort of game they want to play or run. This is one of the main reasons why session 0 is important.

Talk to your player and find out what his expectations for the game were/are. See if they match up with your expectations as the DM. They probably don't. Adjusting the player's expectations might be all that needs to happen here.

[Armored Walrus]

[LIST]I read Armored Walrus's explanation, and it seemed reasonable to me, even if his original comment was a bit terse.

Thanks Greywander. I am a pretty reasonable guy, despite any forum evidence to the contrary. :P

OP, I agree that just changing the names doesn't go far enough, especially considering the original problem cited was with the treasure locations having been spoiled. If you're going to mess with the adventure, you need to do it on a deeper level than the cosmetic. The post suggesting looking up some supplemental adventures designed to be dropped into or added onto OotA is probably the most elegant solution. It will get you out of this module completely while still allowing you to run with a reference.

[ProsecutorGodot]

*snip*
Look, you came here for advice on how to deal with a player who was reading ahead. In your OP you already have the only solution you seem to be happy with. Read your own module, it's pretty easy to tell which NPC's are important because they often have a name and show up later in the campaign.

The reason I myself assumed that this was more of an emotional problem on your end is that you specifically say that the experience of the player metagaming was dragging you down. This led me, and many others, to assume that your enjoyment would eventually wither away and the game would end in a crash and burn scenario.

We always try to avoid crash and burn scenarios.

The easiest solution aside from what you've already said in the op is to kick the player out of the game. You've also been told directly which Demon lords are easy to switch out, seems you missed that one so I'll show it to you

Well, two suggestions I can give right now, but I don't know which consequences it would have:

Swap Graz'zt with Raxivort, creator of the Xvarts (from Volo's Guide)

Swap Demogorgon with Dagon

Swap Yeehnoguu with Laogzed, demon-god of the Troglodytes


These are the things you yourself told us:
-he has a history of reading ahead
-he has been told in the past not to and clearly past DM's talking to him about it hasn't changed that
-You already have a gameplay solution in mind but haven't read enough of the module to understand which demons are important

Even aside from the simple solution, many people gave you more complex solutions:
-Create your own campaign, there's no reason they can't just branch off into something completely new if you decide it
-Change the order of things in the book, all roads lead to Rome unless the DM says this one leads to Waterdeep.
-Ask the player to DM the game since he's reading up on the campaign anyway (this one was pretty inspired)

You've been given suggestions, direct answers and in response you've called people who gave you answers you didn't like childish and antisocial.

It would have been enough to just suggest that you were against the decision to kick him out of the game but you had to insult people for giving you advice. The fact that he has a prior history of reading ahead and still does after being told not to is a strong indicator that simply changing elements of the module is going to end up with him leaving the group anyway.

[Kane0]

If you're looking to replace monsters with those that aren't in the book, Kobold Fight Club lists Fifth Edition Foes, Monster-A-Day, Nerzugal's Extended Bestiary and Tome of Beasts as sources. You could find something in them of the same CR to swap in without having to make up all the statblocks yourself.

[MadBear]

As a new DM, I can get how kicking a person can seem mean. But many of us who've DM'd for years/decades have had numerous experiences of terrible D&D sessions where a bad player was the sole cause, and had we just had them leave, the table would have been better for everyone involved. This isn't just relevant to D&D btw.

Growing up I used to play warhammer 40k with my friends all the time. I had a friend who played as Eldar, who every single game would cheat, adding extra units/weapons/abilities. It didn't matter how often he was called out on it. It didn't matter, that it made everyone else have less fun. So, we let him know we wouldn't play 40k with him anymore. We still hung out and played Call of Duty, Starcraft, and Diablo together, but he wasn't a good fit when playing 40k.

In fact, I saw him this week at Emerald City Comicon, and as we grabbed a beer, we reminisced about how he was kinda a **** in that game.

So with that said, kicking a player with no warning or reason is childish. But if I was you I'd:

1. Talk with them about their behavior

then assuming the problem persists

2. Talk with them outside of the group 1v1 about their behavior

assuming the problem persists

3. Let them know they're not welcome to play when you DM, so either you stop DMing, or they stop playing when you DM.

There's nothing childish about that. Feel free to ignore, advice that you don't like (because of course you can), but it's a perfectly valid answer to a common and obvious problem.

[Rusvul]

To add a little to what MadBear said (which is good advice): IMO, it's a good idea to talk to people one-on-one first about stuff like this, before making it a group thing. Being called out for something in front of your friends can be (but isn't necessarily) a humiliating experience. I think it's best to invert MadBear's #1 and #2.

Also, I would be clear with them that cheaters aren't welcome at your table before you actually kick them. Like, no seriously, you gotta stop that. I'm not going to keep playing games with you if you're gonna cheat." It's important to not make it a threat, though.

[Darth Ultron]

"A bolt of lightning strikes you as you are inspired to do the right thing. Take 200 points of damage and roll a DC 40 con save. ...Sorry, but you can't be resurrected."

I'd do this.

[Jerrykhor]

Maybe I'm just a nicer person than you all, and I'm okay with that.


Really? I'm not going to bother to be nice now: You are not a nicer person, you are dumb. Reading ahead modules is widely considered to be cheating, and cheating is one of the least tolerable things in any table, for good reason. Its a trust breaker. Someone who cheats cannot be trusted to not cheat again, because that is what cheaters do. I think you will find that most people can tolerate power gamers, muchkins, rules lawyers, but not cheaters.

Its no different from using loaded dice.

'My player is using loaded dice! He won't stop even after being told not to! What should I do?'

'Kick him?'

'You guys are nasty! I won't even consider that!'

Cheaters shouldn't be tolerated because we don't want to set a precedent were they are. If the cheater is your IRL friend, he gets ONE strike to change, or he's out. Simple as that.

[djreynolds]

I'm running OOTA right now.

Here is my suggestion.

While traveling from A to B, the entire party is at the mercy of "random" encounters.

Do not make them random. Plan ahead. Combine the bone yard and gas leak and the rope bridge

The are plenty of adversaries and environments out there designed to speed up the game.

The drow are always in pursuit, perhaps they catch up.

There is madness levels players must save versus in certain areas, include this.

Create circumstances where perhaps faerzress area must be traversed through or the drow are upon them or there is a cave in and they are forced through an area with faerzress and are forced to make saves or obtain levels of madness.

[GlenSmash!]

If I'm playing a game of Monopoly and catch another player stealing money form the Bank, am I a nicer person for just continuing to play with them?

I don't know, that's seems awfully not nice to the other players.

I think you're free to handle however you want, but to say that someone who doesn't want to play with a cheater is less nice than you sounds, well, not very nice.

[Willie the Duck]

OP is in fact reading. Just refraining from responding while I weigh up my options. Kicking people out of a game should be the absolute last option you should use when dealing. I'm frankly shocked at how quick you all are to suggest kicking people out.

Maybe I'm just a nicer person than you all, and I'm okay with that.

Well, believe me, I am going to sleep very well tonight even knowing that you think you are a nicer person than I.

And frankly, that could be that. I could walk away from this thread feeling vindicated.

However, I am going to prove you wrong at least in this instance, because I am going to show you both sympathy and forgiveness, and offer you advice.
First and foremost, I know I don't know you as a person. For all I know, you are a veritable saint IRL. However, you have come to this board and made this thread and made what I think are some classic mistakes. Mistakes that it would be better, for you and everyone else involved, that you learn from and use to better your experience here, rather than let this one moment define you and your presence on these fora.

One, you have assumed that people were telepathic. Since you know that you are morally decent and right (and at this point it in the discussion, it is immaterial if that is correct) in this situation, it is utterly unacceptable of them for calling you out, right? Well, you haven't actually shown us that yet. Since we are not telepathic, we need to see the reasoning behind that to come to the same conclusion as you have.

Second, you got upset with people not for giving unreasonable advice, but for giving advice you didn't like. Regardless as to whether, in the nuanced situation you are truly facing (and again, we are not privy to all the nuances), when you come to people and say roughly 'one of my players is apparently cheating, what do I do?,' a response of, 'don't continue to play with cheaters,' is, at the very least, a reasonable response. In fact, the biggest criticism I can see for it is that it is too pat and simple. If this were a non-gaming advice-type forum, and you came to us with the question, 'I found out my child has been stealing from the local quickymart, what do I do?,' you might want a more nuanced response than, 'march them to the store and tell the manager, and let the legal consequences take their course,' but you would hopefully not act like that response was not a reasonable consequence of you asking that question. Certainly if you had nor prefaced your request for advice with something like, 'other than contacting the store manager or police (since those are obvious), what other advice does anyone have?'

Third, you attempted to define yourself as the adult in the conversation through sheer force of will. This seems to be a knee-jerk reaction that people make when they feel conversationally cornered and (let me add emphasis) it. never. works.
Deference as an individual of moral rectitude and maturity isn't something that is declared, or even really earned or awarded, so much as simply proven. That's actually to one's benefit, as it happens regardless and thus even people upset with you pretty much can't not grant it.
You want us to think you are mature, morale, etc.? Show it. Act thusly, and it will more or less happen naturally.

Finally, when you received (reasonable, but that is beside the point) push-back, you could have analyzed it and addressed it in a fashion more productive than doubling down. This entire kerfuffle would never have happened if you had instead said in post #4 something along the lines of, 'Thanks everyone for your responses. I'm sorry that I'm not finding these responses all that helpful. I should have probably included a disclaimer saying that I knew I could simply not play with this individual. I'm hoping to find a less drastic solution, and wondering if anyone has any advise regarding that. Thanks!' Even if you had left post #4 as is, posting roughly the same thing at post #10 would have probably saved you this backdraft.
And even if not then, you could probably have included it later with a mea cupla about 'sorry about implying that others were not being mature in their advice, that was poorly worded. I meant that *I* would feel that the most mature *I* can be is to find another way out of this situation, and am grateful for all of your advice. Sorry if this did not turn out to be my greatest possible entrance to this forum.' You had multiple opportunities to turn this around when you realized things weren't turning out well, but instead you doubled and tripled down on the mistakes. And that, more than anything else, is what has tripped you up here.

Now, fortunately for you, this place has a short memory. Even if you cannot bring yourself to swallow your pride and do what you need to turn this thread around, you can probably re-introduce yourself on other threads without too much trouble and in short order slip into the normal hue and cry of the normal forum life here. I wish you the best at it. I hope you enjoy your stay here, as well as your gaming in general and I encourage you to keep asking questions and gaining perspective from other gamers here. Take care, and enjoy.




Thank you. This was more helpful than saying S can't play any more.

I think kicking people out of a game (read, game) is something that's more childish than simply continuing to have fun, while discouraging them from reading ahead.

I'm glad you found this more helpful.

[Hesh]

If I'm playing a game of Monopoly and catch another player stealing money form the Bank, am I a nicer person for just continuing to play with them?

I don't know, that's seems awfully not nice to the other players.

I think you're free to handle however you want, but to say that someone who doesn't want to play with a cheater is less nice than you sounds, well, not very nice.

In a game like monopoly when its player versus player, sure. What about if you play in an MMO RPG game, when it's PVe? Do you sinply put down the game, or do you attempt to change it so that cheat can't be done again?

Apples and Oranges.

[Unoriginal]

In a game like monopoly when its player versus player, sure. What about if you play in an MMO RPG game, when it's PVe? Do you sinply put down the game, or do you attempt to change it so that cheat can't be done again?

Apples and Oranges.

People who cheats at World of Warcraft gets banned pretty much as soon as their infractions are known.

[GlenSmash!]

In a game like monopoly when its player versus player, sure. What about if you play in an MMO RPG game, when it's PVe? Do you sinply put down the game, or do you attempt to change it so that cheat can't be done again?

Apples and Oranges.

The GMs of the MMOs ban cheaters immediately. They are considered to be taking loot that rightfully belongs to players willing to earn it without cheating.