Polymorph Questions

[Promethean]

I have a few questions that I haven't been able to find answers for in my books.

If a creature with a template is polymorphed does the template apply to the new form?(I Think the raw is no, but it isn't called out directly. So you'd have to assume can't add templates to your polymorphs applies to existing templates)

POA mentions that creatures morph get the intelligence score of the new form, so does that mean you can make someone mindless by forcing them into a mindless form?

What happens if a creature that is normally immune to an instantaneous/permanent spell or effect is polymorphed into a form for which the effect applies.

(Example(non-template):if a creature is polymorphed into an animal, Awaken Animal is cast, polymorph wears off. Does the creature now have the intelligence and friendly disposition of it's animal form or is it now normal(if disoriented)?)

(Example(template):creature is polymorphed into a construct, incarnate construct is used on it, polymorph ends. Does the creature now have no special abilities/trapped in humanoid form forever, or is it now back to normal(if disoriented)?)

[flappeercraft]

I have a few questions that I haven't been able to find answers for in my books.

If a creature with a template is polymorphed does the template apply to the new form?(I Think the raw is no, but it isn't called out directly. So you'd have to assume can't add templates to your polymorphs applies to existing templates)

POA mentions that creatures morph get the intelligence score of the new form, so does that mean you can make someone mindless by forcing them into a mindless form?

What happens if a creature that is normally immune to an instantaneous/permanent spell or effect is polymorphed into a form for which the effect applies.

(Example(non-template):if a creature is polymorphed into an animal, Awaken Animal is cast, polymorph wears off. Does the creature now have the intelligence and friendly disposition of it's animal form or is it now normal(if disoriented)?)

(Example(template):creature is polymorphed into a construct, incarnate construct is used on it, polymorph ends. Does the creature now have no special abilities/trapped in humanoid form forever, or is it now back to normal(if disoriented)?)

1. No
2. Yes
3. Depends on the source of the immunity s
4. I'm not sure
5. I'm not sure

[BowStreetRunner]

(Example(template):creature is polymorphed into a construct, incarnate construct is used on it, polymorph ends. Does the creature now have no special abilities/trapped in humanoid form forever, or is it now back to normal(if disoriented)?)

In this case the clause under Incarnate Construct where it states 'The spell does not work on constructs that are only constructs temporarily' would apply. Incarnate Construct would not work on a creature polymorphed into a construct, as it is only a construct temporarily.

[Promethean]

In this case the clause under Incarnate Construct where it states 'The spell does not work on constructs that are only constructs temporarily' would apply. Incarnate Construct would not work on a creature polymorphed into a construct, as it is only a construct temporarily.

What if it was poly morphed "permanently" with PAO?

Actually wait , no. The only thing that'll come out of this question is a discussion on the definition of "permanent" in the context of DnD.

[BowStreetRunner]

What if it was poly morphed "permanently" with PAO?
Then Incarnate Construct would work, but your example stated 'polymorph ends', so I assumed you were talking a less-than-permanent PAO.

If I were DM in either case (Awaken or Incarnate Construct and then polymorph ends, is dispelled, or whatever) I would rule that they return to their original form and the Awaken or Incarnate Construct no longer applies. The rationale for my decision would be that the Awaken or Incarnate Construct targeted the form into which they were polymorphed and not the original form. So when the polymorphed form ends, all changes to that form end as well.

[Venger]

I have a few questions that I haven't been able to find answers for in my books.

If a creature with a template is polymorphed does the template apply to the new form?(I Think the raw is no, but it isn't called out directly. So you'd have to assume can't add templates to your polymorphs applies to existing templates)
No.

Polymorph refers to alter self, which is very clear:



You cannot take the form of any creature with a template


POA mentions that creatures morph get the intelligence score of the new form, so does that mean you can make someone mindless by forcing them into a mindless form?
yes


What happens if a creature that is normally immune to an instantaneous/permanent spell or effect is polymorphed into a form for which the effect applies.
the effect applies normally unless the immunity is derived from something that it keeps after being polymorphed


(Example(non-template):if a creature is polymorphed into an animal, Awaken Animal is cast, polymorph wears off. Does the creature now have the intelligence and friendly disposition of it's animal form or is it now normal(if disoriented)?)
if awaken is cast, it retains its new mental ability scores because awaken is instantaneous. it has an attitude of friendly to start, but this can be changed through behavior.


(Example(template):creature is polymorphed into a construct, incarnate construct is used on it, polymorph ends. Does the creature now have no special abilities/trapped in humanoid form forever, or is it now back to normal(if disoriented)?)
you can't polymorph someone into a construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) unless they already are one, which they wouldn't be in this case.


In this case the clause under Incarnate Construct where it states 'The spell does not work on constructs that are only constructs temporarily' would apply. Incarnate Construct would not work on a creature polymorphed into a construct, as it is only a construct temporarily.


What if it was poly morphed "permanently" with PAO?

Actually wait , no. The only thing that'll come out of this question is a discussion on the definition of "permanent" in the context of DnD.
if it was polymorphed permanently, then the clause from incarnate construct wouldn't apply. there is no discussion on "permanent" since it's a defined rules term, and that's what happens with say, 2 castings of pao, the preferred method for a permanent change in form.

[Cruiser1]

If a creature with a template is polymorphed does the template apply to the new form?(I Think the raw is no, but it isn't called out directly. So you'd have to assume can't add templates to your polymorphs applies to existing templates)
The answer is indeed no, because Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) which the rest of the polymorph line is based on says, "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype."

However, there is one exception. Alter Self also says, "You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself." That specific exception overrides the more general prohibition against templates. So if you're a Half-Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) Human and Alter Self or Polymorph into an Elf, then you're just an Elf and not a Half-Dragon Elf. However, you can polymorph into other Half-Dragon Humans.

[Promethean]

No.
you can't polymorph someone into a construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) unless they already are one, which they wouldn't be in this case.


Polymorph any object allows you to polymorph subjects into any object or creature. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)

I believe that would cover constructs as well.

[Venger]

Polymorph any object allows you to polymorph subjects into any object or creature. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)

I believe that would cover constructs as well.

No it doesn't.

It refers to polymorph, which lists an exclusive series of types: : aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. Construct is not on that list of types, so you can't turn into one unless you are a construct already. And since it only affects living creatures, you would need to be a living construct, and it could only turn you into another living construct.

[Promethean]

No it doesn't.

It refers to polymorph, which lists an exclusive series of types: : aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. Construct is not on that list of types, so you can't turn into one unless you are a construct already. And since it only affects living creatures, you would need to be a living construct, and it could only turn you into another living construct.

This may be a difference in reading then. I presume you are focusing on the reference to polymorph, I am focusing on the "except that it changes one object or creature into another".

As it does not say "any creature" excluding constructs is a valid arguement. I'd personally argue that constructs count as "Creatures" and that excluding robots from a spell that can transform a dragon into a coffee table seems like a dumb restriction(at least to me).

[BowStreetRunner]

No it doesn't.

It refers to polymorph, which lists an exclusive series of types: : aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. Construct is not on that list of types, so you can't turn into one unless you are a construct already. And since it only affects living creatures, you would need to be a living construct, and it could only turn you into another living construct.By that argument, you actually may only change into a creature as the same type as your normal form, since Polymorph refers to Alter Self. Except that in each of the higher level spells they use that word: except.

Alter Self: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.
Polymorph: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.
Polymorph Any Object: This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.

[Venger]

This may be a difference in reading then. I presume you are focusing on the reference to polymorph, I am focusing on the "except that it changes one object or creature into another".

As it does not say "any creature" excluding constructs is a valid arguement. I'd personally argue that constructs count as "Creatures" and that excluding robots from a spell that can transform a dragon into a coffee table seems like a dumb restriction(at least to me).

That is not meaningful rules information. That's just the one sentence fluff summary of what the spell does. Your argument is like saying since silent image says "This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. " you are allowed to ignore the range and area if you visualize something bigger. You can't.


By that argument, you actually may only change into a creature as the same type as your normal form, since Polymorph refers to Alter Self. Except that in each of the higher level spells they use that word: except.

Alter Self: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.
Polymorph: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.
Polymorph Any Object: This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.

No, because that's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm not the one saying to only read part of the spell, you guys are.

If pao let you turn into any kind of creature, it would say so, like shapechange does. It doesn't, so you can't.

[Anthrowhale]

According to WoTC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a), PAO allows changing into a construct.

[Venger]

According to WoTC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a), PAO allows changing into a construct.

rules of the game articles are not RAW. they are well known for containing rules errors such as this

[BowStreetRunner]

rules of the game articles are not RAW. they are well known for containing rules errors such as this
And your opinion is just your opinion and constitutes neither RAW nor RAI, so we are also free to disagree and move on. Feel free to keep interpreting the rules as you see fit. We appreciate your input but in this case must disagree. Thank you.