to make the best of a bad situation: optimization for a small sword-and-board fighter

[King of Nowhere]

I have this goblin npc.
she obviously could not choose to be another race. she had high str for her race, and not all goblins can be rogues or casters, so she was trained as a warrior. she was not good enough, so she was cast out into the desert because the goblins have limited food and can't afford to waste it on those who cannot contribute.
In the desert, she fought with sword and shield because they were the only weapons available. she managed to survive, and she actually became pretty good. She was supposed to be a boss fight for the party when she was level 4, but diplomacy was used instead, so she surived. She was readmitted in the goblin nation and she's now one of their highest level individuals, at ECL 13. Depending on how events unfold, she may become a friend or a foe.

Now, she's got obviously a terrible build. Her class, race and fighting style are all suboptimal, especially at high level. But I want to show she's learned to make the best out of them.
So I'm looking for good builds for her. constraints are that she must have at least 8 fighter levels, she must fight with a sword and shield, and of course she must be a goblin. I particularly seek some feat or strategy or whatever that could get a specific advantage from being small-sized, as well as from having a shield that is not animated. I mean, everybody else has an animated shield and get to add extra STR to damage; she wields her own shield, and what does she have to show for it? a bash attack at a terrible penalty dealing negligible damage and leaving her open to retribution?

I don't want her to outperform a more optimized build, but at least to be a credible threat for her level.

I am already giving a -1 level adjustment to small-sized fighter types, because a goblin/gnome/halfling fighter won't outperform a human or half-orc one even with one extra level. Tried it on a previous goblin encounter, it hardly mattered.

[DeTess]

I probably suggest this whenever I see a thread like this come up, but it's an easy solution that requires no abuse of RAW and makes a martial better at being a martial, so here goes: Have you considered adding a couple of levels of a martial intiator? Either Crusader or Warblade (goblins get a CHA penalty, so Warblade is probably better) would add a number of extra abilities that make them more of a threat, be it offensive (various strikes) or defensive (Iron heart surge, some stances, etc.).

[King of Nowhere]

I have always been reluctant to search for the tome of battle, but it is probably the single most quoted splatbook. I'll have to sift through it.

[Albions_Angel]

This is an NPC right? You as DM will be running this, in addition to every other NPC in an encounter except cohorts, right?

I cant help with the build, and I agree you should check out ToB, but I would strongly advice AGAINST using it as the DM on NPCs. Stances are fine, but the various mechanics for which abilites you can use at which time, what they do, how to recover them in combat, its very very involved. If its your character, great, you can focus on that. But I found that trying to keep track of what ones I had used, what they all do, even with cards, and THEN thinking about all the other creatures in combat, AND what to do next, AND trying to keep it all believable, AND timely. Well, I ended up killing half my party (because ToB was above the op level of the group in hindsight) AND was so burned out after it that I had to cancel the next session.

ToB is great for players. It sucks for DMs.

[Zaq]

I agree that tacking initiator levels on the end of 8 Fighter levels is about the best way to make the best of a bad lot. Crusaders aren't awful with shields.

For optimizing size, you can explore the Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk line of feats in RotW. (You'll almost certainly need to use Skilled City Dweller to get Tumble as a class skill.) Those work best on things 2 or more sizes larger than you (so they're better for Tiny characters than for Small ones, since then the tactics work on Medium critters), but size-changing magic is a thing, or you could houserule that goblins get Slight Build the way kobolds do (maybe charge a feat for the privilege?).

[Eldariel]

Crusader is just about the best way of going about this. Anyways, barring that... Person Man's Guide to Shields (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields) is a nice resource. Anyways, specifically for this build I think you need:
Shield Slam [Complete Warrior] - Daze isn't size-related like just about anything else you can do in melee.
Shield Ward [PHBII] - To apply your Shield to touch attacks and company.
Block Arrow [Heroes of Battle] - Autoblock an arrow with a shield.

Those make your shield more than an ornament defensively. Then offensively you obviously have some Dex as a Goblin so pick up Two-Weapon Fighting line of feats. With high Dex she might also use lighter armor making her more mobile and enabling some alternative class features (I'm looking at Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) mostly). Perhaps some Ranger or Barbarian (Pounce [Complete Champion] from Barbarian 1 would be absolute key to enable full attacks without which the two weapon are useless). You need bonus damage to make it worthwhile; off the top of my head there's Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion], which combined with Thug and Education [Player's Guide to Faerun] would enable her to get significant bonus on all her attacks. Other decent options include Stormguard Warrior [Tome of Battle, but just a feat that non-initiators can use) and so on.

[Hellpyre]

Then offensively you obviously have some Dex as a Goblin so pick up Two-Weapon Fighting line of feats.

I might be missing something, but how does TWF improve a goblin commited to having a shield in one of their hands?

[Zaq]

I might be missing something, but how does TWF improve a goblin commited to having a shield in one of their hands?

Improved Shield Bash.

[Eldariel]

I might be missing something, but how does TWF improve a goblin commited to having a shield in one of their hands?

Improved Shield Bash makes a shield wielder TWFer. The other relevant option is Two-Handing the shield but that's obviously not game for a sword-and-board Goblin. Just one-handed weapon and nothing else really hurts your output.

[BowStreetRunner]

Check out the Sword and Board Handbook (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10232) too.

[King of Nowhere]

i checked the tome of battle, but all the manuevers look like something i don't want to learn. And i especially don't want to introduce them in a campaign where nobody knew of them. I can, however, refluff/houserule a few of the shield-based ones as feats.

I'm also thinking of taking some of the feats made by rich burlew himself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10546567&postcount=14).

I am starting to envision a combat style where this agile warrior moves around a lot, dodges/parries a lot, she doesn't deal a great deal of damage but she's damn hard to kill. It works better with a rogue, and doesn't mix well with a party, so I'll have to give her something useful to do to keep an enemy party from just focusing on all her allies while she's dealing 1d6+10 per round. Maybe I'll get away with the agility style and turn her into a front line tank. Sharing your shield bonus with an ally seems one of the best possibilities on that side.

I'm not fond of shield bashes, it's basically like twf, but with even less damage. If I could get in a shield bash without losing shield bonus to AC, I'd gladly get it, but not otherwise.

I'll look ideas more in detail tomorrow. Thanks for all the informations.

[Zaq]

I'm not fond of shield bashes, it's basically like twf, but with even less damage. If I could get in a shield bash without losing shield bonus to AC, I'd gladly get it, but not otherwise.


That's literally the point of Improved Shield Bash. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedShieldBash) It's a feat tax, but if you want your shield to matter, it's kind of a thing. You're ECL 13, right? Unless you're stacking size increases, which I don't think you are, your weapon's base damage die basically doesn't matter at all at that level. It's all about bonus damage. You can tack on a level of Rogue and pick up Craven, if nothing else.

I still say that Crusader maneuvers are your best option (there honestly aren't as many as you think there are), especially for actually making enemies focus on you like you say you want them to, but if you're not willing to use them, I guess you'll have to find a less good option.

You said ECL 13 with 8 Fighter levels (for some reason)? That leaves 5 real levels to make up the difference with. You could go into PsyWar for some psionic tricks (some of which are decent with shields), there's nothing stopping you from actually going into Rogue and getting few dice of Sneak Attack, you could dip a level of Cleric to get TU to burn on Travel Devotion and go into Scout to emphasize mobility and AC (Skirmish boosts AC, after all) . . .

This would be way more effective with fewer levels sacrificed on the altar of Fighter, but you could technically sneak into Ironsoul Forgemaster, which actually has a reason to use shields. Spend 3 levels on Stoneblessed to qualify as a dwarf (and pick up a highly useful bonus to CON), then either spend a feat or two on Shape Soulmeld or a level in Incarnate before diving into Ironsoul Forgemaster, which would give you some neat tricks to do with a shield. And, you know, soulmelds, which are going to be way more useful to you than Fighter levels are.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Here are a few non-ToB thoughts.

1. Weapon specialization plus melee weapon mastery is a dramatic boost in power (over core rulebook) and should not be ovelooked.

2. In conjunction with that, consider armbands of might. For a cheap magic item, they make moderate one-handed power attack a much better deal.

3. If the character is religious, a level or 4 of cleric (or antipaladin assuming evil, paladin if good) can give access to divine might (charisma to damage isn't so hot with a charisma penalty but it's not size based) , potentially battle blessing (if allowed to antipaladin--very minor house rule to allow it) and either Smite good or destruction domain smite. Smit is yet another non-suze based damage source. If you just want smite, pious Templar gives that along with mettle.

In conjunction with -1 cr that should make her a decent martial opponent. Heck, -1 CAR almost does that by itself. She's sucking up -2 strength and 1 die size of damage. Small size gives a +1 to hit so it's essentially just -2 damage straight up. Giving another level is worth at least +1 BAB which will give half the damage back if you just power attack a bit more than usual. If there's a feat, class ability or other bonus as well--which there should be--then you should be able to more than make up for the -2 damage she gets from being small.

[GrayDeath]

If she was cast out and had to survive alone, a few levels of Warlock (finding an outside Power to help her) or Ranger (Wildshape Variant) might do the trick, if you are opposed to ToB. :)

[King of Nowhere]

That's literally the point of Improved Shield Bash. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedShieldBash)
Huh. for some reason I always overlooked that feat because I was sure it increased your shield bash damage. Never knew it existed, despite considering myself reasonably well knowledgeable of core. thanks for linking it and bringing me out of my mistake.

So, seems to me now sword and board with improved bash is an improved version of TWF. You get the same number of attacks, you get just a bit less damage, but you can get a nifty AC bonus for free that you'd miss with TWF.

[Eldariel]

The thing is, you can't apply the same stuff to shield and sword that you could to two swords. And it costs an extra feat; feats are not a negligible cost. Also while weapon damage is kinda irrelevant, crit can matter as can special abilities and shields lack both. And there's the whole hassle of having to enchant the shield both offensively and defensively. Sword & Shield is certainly not strictly better than two Shields (indeed, Sword & Dagger can pick up the awful Two-Weapon Defense to kinda match shield...but they should just use an animated shield).

[Menzath]

Well if you aren't using a sword per se, but maybe a mace, then the feat pulverize would work better, and melee weapon mastery:blunt would apply to you shield as well. And if you could add the aptitude quality from ToB on your shield then a whole slew of weapon style feats become accessable (looking at you lighting mace).
True you may have trouble getting your crit high enough to where it matters.
And I can't recall but aren't there a few ways to be considered smaller than you are? That would make moving through people way easier than tumbling.

[Deadline]

A couple of suggestions:

Improved Shield Bash (PHB)
Shield Specialization (PHB2)
Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2)
Shield Ward (PHB2)
Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2) (As mentioned above, try to make sure that both your shield and one-handed weapon are dealing the same type of damage [bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing]so you can gain the bonus for both)

Assuming you switch to a bludgeoning weapon, pick up Pulverize Foe (Champions of Ruin)

Other feats that could be fun:
Cometary Collision (PHB2)
Elusive Target (Complete Warrior) + Melee Evasion (PHB2)
Giantbane (Complete Warrior) - Only useful against Large foes, unless you can shrink down to tiny.

On top of those, I'll echo what everyone else has said. Pick up Tome of Battle and go Fighter 8/Crusader 5.

[Darrin]

So, seems to me now sword and board with improved bash is an improved version of TWF. You get the same number of attacks, you get just a bit less damage, but you can get a nifty AC bonus for free that you'd miss with TWF.

With Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII) it gets even better. Take a closer look at the benefits:

"When making a shield bash and armed strike attack as part of a full attack action, you take a –2 penalty on each attack. These penalties replace the normal ones you incur for fighting with two weapons." (emphasis added)

Since the -2 penalty *replaces* the TWF penalties, you can upgrade your light shield to a heavy shield. Heavy shields are one-handed weapons, and are thus eligible for Power Attack damage. Depending on how you interpret that sentence, you could also say the -2 penalty replaces the -5 and -10 offhand penalty from Improved TWF and Greater TWF, essentially allowing you to make all your offhand shield slams at your full BAB -2.

Deadline mentioned Shield Ward, but I'm also a big fan of Shield Charge and Shield Slam. Shield Charge is a free trip attempt, and while that isn't all that effective for a small-sized character, it triggers no AoO and the opponent can't counter-trip, so there are no downsides. You might be able to combo it with Confound the Big Folk to negate your opponent's size bonus. Shield Slam is a save vs. dazed, DC is based on Str but you can throw ability focus on there or just hope they roll low.

If you want to go all-out on the shields, have her dual wield two feycraft (DMGII) heavy shields, one of them made out of riverine (Stormwrack, for the deflection bonus), and give her the Inlindl School feat (Drow of the Underdark). Just when the PCs think they are dealing with a mostly defensive build, have her charge in with Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. Add Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra: Thunderstep Boots for save vs. stun on top of the save vs. dazed.

[AnimeTheCat]

Since you've already decided against anything ToB related, I'll refrain. I would suggest a full fighter 14 (CR 13, -1 for your houseruled small LA). Here's how I would do it with a 25, 28, and 32 PB (after racial modifiers):



Ability
25 PB
28 PB
32 PB


Strength
12
12
14


Dexterity
16
17
17


Constitution
14
14
14


Intelligence
13
14
14


Wisdom
10
10
10


Charisma
6
6
6



For ability Score Increases at 4, 8, and 12 level off your odd stats first (dex for 28 and 32 PB, Int for 25 PB) then build strength up to at least 14 (for 25 and 28 pb) or increase your dex (for 32 PB). Final scores will look like:



Ability
25 PB
28 PB
32 PB


Strength
14
14
14


Dexterity
16
18
20


Constitution
14
14
14


Intelligence
14
14
14


Wisdom
10
10
10


Charisma
6
6
6



For feats, I would suggest these(* denotes my selections for Fighter Bonus Feats):

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Broadblade Short Sword)
Weapon Focus (Broadblade Short Sword)*
Combat Expertise*
Improved Shield Bash
Weapon Specialization (Broadblade Shortsword)*
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting*
Greater Weapon Focus (Broadblade Shortsword)*
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing Weapons)
Shield Specialization (Heavy)*
Shield Ward
Greater Weapon Focus (Broadblade Short Sword)*
Greater Two Weapon Fighting*



The Broadblade Short Sword is from Complete Adventurer (pg 117) and grants an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise to reduce your BAB by 2 or more. You requested a challenging build that wouldn't overshadow the party, pumping AC to kingdom come is one way to do that. With only moderate Magic Item application (totaled less than 50K gold, see below) I am able to get the AC up to 27/28/29 for 25/28/32 PB, respectively. Those figures are not accounting for defensive fighting and include two magic weapons of +3 and +2 enhancement value. Equipment Cost and Breakdown below (starting with 45K gold):



Item
Cost
Remeining Gold


+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
-8,000
37,000


+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
-5,250
31,750


+2 Heavy Steel Shield
-4,175
27,575


+1 Flaming Icy Broadblade Short Sword
-18,375
9,200


+2 Shield Spikes
-8,310
890


Healing Belt (MIC pg. 110)
-750
140



In the end, you'll have something that amounts to the below for the Character:



Strength
14
Intelligence
14
Fortitude
11
AC
29 (35)*
HP
14d10+28 (105 HP)


Dexterity
20
Wisdom
10
Reflex
9
Touch AC
21 (27)*
Speed
30 ft


Constitution
14
Charisma
6
Will
4
Flat-Footed AC
24
Initiative
+5


* Denotes AC when using -5 BAB for +6 AC (+5 for Combat Expertise, +1 for Broadblade Short Sword)



Attack/Weapon
Attack Bonus
Damage


+1 Flaming Icy Broadblade Shortsword
+21/+16/+11 (+16/+11/+6)*
1d4+9+1d6 (fire)+1d6 (Cold)


+2 Spiked Heavy Steel Shield
+19/+14/+9 (+14/+9/+4)*
1d4+6


Two Weapon Fighting (Sword/Shield)
(sh)+17/(sw)+19/(sh)+12/(sw)+14/(sh)+7/(sw)+9 ((sh)+12/(sw)+14/(sh)+7/(sw)+9/(sh)+2/(sw)+4)*
(sh)1d4+6/(sw)1d4+8+1d6 (fire)+1d6 (Cold)


* Denotes a -5 BAB Penalty for +6 AC (+5 for Combat Expertise, +1 for Broadblade Short Sword)



Armor Name
Armor/Shield Bonus
Max Dex Bonus
Armor Check Penalty
Arcane Spell Failure Chance


+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
+6
6
-0
10%


+2 Spiked Heavy Steel Shield
+5
-
-2
15%



Skills can go however you want them, but you end up with 62 skill points (for 25 PB) or 68 skill Points (for 28/32 PB)

That is a moderately optimized sword and shield fighter that won't overshadow any PCs I know of, doesn't use ToB (sadly... a 1 level dip in Swordsage for Giant Killing Style would be incredible for the damage output of a small character), and is pretty simple (i mean... it's already built). The best application of this character as an opponent would be to face off against the party's BDF while the other characters are occupied (in some way... maybe an arena of some kind?). A wizard or other caster would walk all over this character, but that's to be expected. I decided for full class fighter because the power level does taper off in the end and does create a difference in power between NPC and PC.

The point of the build is not to be a one shot uber charging behemoth, but a stalwart front line combatant that sits in the front lines, fights with -5 BAB/+6 AC against melee attacking foes full attacking, connecting as it can, and eventually winning (using the Healing Belt as needed). This is not an optimal combat style, but it works. An alternative that can be taken is to not take Greater Two Weapon Fighting and take a level of Barbarian for Pounce to turn this in to a full-attack charger, but that really doesn't do much for you without taking out some feats and adding in power-attack, leap attack, et-al. If that's the route you would prefer, I can do that for you, but It will not be as survivable, especially against the PCs.

EDIT:
I was thinking about it, and if you don't want the broadblade short-sword due to it being nerfed by an eratta (was a +2 dodge bonus before), you can forego it and instead take two weapon rend. Just take shield specialization earlier and replace it with two weapon rend for additional damage.

[noce]

Take a single rogue level. Take the feat Craven. This will fix damage output as long as you can sneak attack, especially with Improved Shield Bash.

[darkdragoon]

Come up with some way to duplicate Tougher than Small (from Wary Swordknight)?

[Âmesang]

I just woke up from a nap so my first, half-asleep thought was to take levels in Exotic Weapons Master and pick up a Small bastard sword with abilities tied to tripping and stunning combined with the relevant feats (which initially came to mind one day when I considered restatting Lord Robilar from the Epic Level Handbook).

[Piggy Knowles]

If you're not married to the sword, have you considered a mounted lance build? You can make an effective shield fighter this way. Even better, there's a feat called Tremendous Charge in Dragonlance Campaign Setting that lets you use your mount's strength instead of your own when charging with a lance, so you can mitigate your low strength a bit. Try this:

Goblin, Fighter 8/Paladin 5
1. Fighter1- Power Attack, Mounted Combat
2. Fighter2- Shield Specialization
3. Paladin1- Ride-by Attack
4. Paladin2-
5. Paladin3-
6. Paladin4- Divine Shield
7. Paladin5-
8. Fighter3-
9. Fighter4- Spirited Charge, Divine Might
10. Fighter5-
11. Fighter6- Tremendous Charge
12. Fighter7- Dragon Steed
13. Fighter8- Block Arrow

Use the Races of Stone Fighter ACF (p139) that lets you trade your tower shield proficiency for an exotic shield, and become proficient in the riding shield. Feel free to replace Paladin with any of the UA paladin variants that better meets your alignment requirements; you're mainly in this for Divine Grace, Turn Undead and the mount, which all of the variants grant.

You'll need at least a 13 Strength to qualify for Power Attack, though Tremendous Charge means you won't need much more than that. You'll want to keep your Charisma up pretty high.

Defensively you can add your Charisma bonus to your Shield for 6 rounds with a turn attempt, which applies to your touch AC and various other checks thanks to Shield Ward, and to your mount thanks to the riding shield. Your shield provides a surprisingly chunky defensive bonus, and between armor and shield and small size and Divine Grace you should be reasonably hard to hit. It helps that you'll be moving all around thanks to a flying mount and Ride-by Attack. You can even block an arrow every round with your shield if anyone tries to hit you in the air.

With your lance and Spirited Charge, you still deal excellent damage despite using your lance one-handed. Flat boosts like Divine Might can increase your damage output as well, since they'll get multiplied along with your charging bonuses. Oh, and you use your dragonnel's Strength instead of your own, so that's a pretty sizable damage boost as well. You'll be riding a dragonnel that has 20 Strength right off the bat, and it also has a bunch of cool abilities. You get to pick a feat for your mount, too, thanks to the bonus HD granted by your paladin levels.

Not the most gamebreaking build in the world, but it plays into the character well: though strong for a goblin she's still weak compared to the rest of the world, so she learns to fight on with mounted hit-and-run tactics, focusing on her defenses while using her mount's strength to supplement her own. For a goblin shield fighter with at least eight levels of Fighter and no ToB classes, I think it sounds pretty solid.

Sources:

Complete Divine: Divine Shield, Divine Might
PHB2: Shield Ward, Shield Specialization
Dragonlance Campaign Setting: Tremendous Charge
Draconomicon: Dragon Steed
Heroes of Battle: Block Arrow


EDIT: Actually, I forgot that you're giving a -1 LA here, so you have another level you could play with. In that case you could do something like Fighter 8/Paladin 4/Ashworm Dragoon 2. Ashworm Dragoon is in Sandstorm and it fits in well with the desert theme. This nets you two spare feats (you don't need Dragon Steed, and you get a bonus fighter feat). Your ashworm is even a bit stronger than a dragonnel (although no flight is a bit sad).

[Karl Aegis]

You're at the level where gear matters. Get some good stuff.

I would suggest:
Vampire Hide (Libris Mortis)
Wight Shield (Libris Mortis)
+2 Unholy Weapon of Vicious
Mantle of Spell Resistance
Ring of Protection +3
Amulet of Natural Armor +3
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Belt of Giant Strength +4
Vest of Resistance +3
Boots of Striding and Springing
Gloves of Dexterity +2

It's probably too much gold for that level, but feel free to add/remove a little.

[King of Nowhere]

You're at the level where gear matters. Get some good stuff.

I would suggest:
Vampire Hide (Libris Mortis)
Wight Shield (Libris Mortis)
+2 Unholy Weapon of Vicious
Mantle of Spell Resistance
Ring of Protection +3
Amulet of Natural Armor +3
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Belt of Giant Strength +4
Vest of Resistance +3
Boots of Striding and Springing
Gloves of Dexterity +2

It's probably too much gold for that level, but feel free to add/remove a little.

I play a high magic world where virtually everyone is way above wbl. she'll probably sport mostly +4 gear with a +6 belt of strenght.

[Bucky]

Since she's a DM toon with an unusual combat style, you have the option of giving her a minor-artifact shield with an odd enchantment that fills a hole in the build.

[BowStreetRunner]

Since she's a DM toon with an unusual combat style, you have the option of giving her a minor-artifact shield with an odd enchantment that fills a hole in the build.
Just remember, the PCs have allowed this NPC to survive so far, but give the NPC enough loot and the PCs will use an immediate action to turn murder-hobo.

[King of Nowhere]

Just remember, the PCs have allowed this NPC to survive so far, but give the NPC enough loot and the PCs will use an immediate action to turn murder-hobo.

I don't think so. The lead player (the one who is paying more attention to the plot) would like to ally with the goblin nation against other powers, and the other players follow him. It will be the goblins who will be difficult to persuade; I characterized them as survivalist nazis who use as a motto "everything falls in three categories. The goblin nation. The enemies of the goblin nation. And inanimate objects". If the party manages to befriend the goblins, they will receive certificates saying "we declare this guy to be an inanimate object"
or maybe they'll chose to fight the goblins instead. But if they decide to befriend them, I want them committed about it. And that includes giving up some loot.