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View Full Version : Optimization Building up to a homebrew Necromancer PrC



Dusk Raven
2018-03-04, 05:01 PM
All right, so something I found while browsing the internet was the Tome of Necromancy (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_(3.5e_Sourcebook)), a set of homebrew articles on necromancy-related stuff, and in it was a PrC that looks really fun, called the Widow Queen (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Widow_Queen_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)). While they don't get much in the way of combat-related class features, they do get the ability to create various types of Vampire Spawn, and use them as spies and agents. Obviously it lends itself to a "mastermind" style of play, and honestly I think it was more designed for villains than heroes. Good thing I'm scheduled for a villainous campaign!

However, since I'm not very good at optimizing (even though my standard is "anything playable"), I'd like to ask for advice and help, and perhaps opinions on the PrC itself. It should be noted that my DM, while lenient in allowing this PrC, restricts me to the PHB and one additional sourcebook (and maybe Unearthed Arcana), a restriction I think is reasonable. Thus, I'm going to need to do a bit more careful planning in advance. Of course, I'm also doing this as a pet project, so if I wanted to I could make a "for fun" build with no restrictions on books.

I do have a basic concept in mind - this character is going to play more like a squad commander than an adventurer. My plan is to focus my necromancy on small groups of elite undead minions, outfit them with some magical gear, and send them into battle. My minions will most likely consist of a few Vampire Spawn and Ghouls/Ghasts (created with the feat prereqs for Widow Queen), whatever I can get from Animate/Create Dead, and an undefined number of spawn created with my Widow Queen class abilities. At 6th level of Widow Queen, I get the ability to manage the Widow Queen spawn from a distance, thus no longer requiring me to even be present in battles. What I do if I actually join my minions in battle. is most likely where my build comes in, which depends on the books and class(es) I choose.

Books: The way I see it, my two main choices are Complete Arcane and Libris Mortis. The former makes me more effective as an arcane spellcaster in general, the latter gives me more minions to choose from and more options for those minions, and lots of necromancy-themed abilities. If I choose Complete Arcane, I'll go for an Uttercold Assault build; if I choose Libris Mortis, I'll likely make myself into an undead of some sort (Necropolitan being the easiest), and thus gain access to a number of undead-only skills. I'd go for the Corpsecrafter feats, but as written they only affect undead I've created with my spells and not from the Tome of Necromancy feats, Widow Queen abilities, or even official stuff like Undead Leadership. Sigh.

Base Classes: The Widow Queen is obviously intended to be used by Wizards/Sorcerers, as they need to be able to cast both Web and Vampiric touch. There might be ways for a Cleric to get those spells - and a Cleric might be better for the kind of minion support I want to do - but I don't know how.

However, neither Wizard nor Sorcerer have Diplomacy or Sense Motive as class skills (and the Sorcerer doesn't get Knowledge (Planes), which I'd need for an Uttercold Assault build, which is probably the only way for a Sorcerer Necromancer to be viable). As a result, going straight Wiz/Sor I'd take my first level in Widow Queen at 9th level.

Now, I could take five levels in Wizard and then dip one level into Bard, after which I qualify for Widow Queen and thus I can get to my desired level of Widow Queen sooner. The problem with that is that I don't get much else from a level of Bard. I won't complain about boosts to saves, more skill points, or a slightly higher hit die, but a few extra cantrips aren't helpful, Inspire Courage and Countersong won't work on my undead (unless my DM uses a couple other rules from Tome of Necromancy, but that's unlikely)... which leaves Fascination if I can figure out a good way to use it (distract a crowd while by undead sneak into position?), and Bardic Knowledge as an occasionally useful/interesting extra. Despite all that, it seems like the preferable option if the level cap is 15 or lower (anything after 8th level with Widow Queen is dressing for me, not meat) - if I have to take 8 levels of Wizard/Sorcerer I won't get all the Widow Queen class features I want until 16th level.

If I had more books at my disposal, I could choose a Beguiler instead of a Bard, but choosing the PH2 as my 2nd sourcebook closes off a lot of options I'd otherwise have.

I think that more or less sums up the main decisions I need to make. Thoughts and recommendations?

Dusk Raven
2018-05-03, 11:31 PM
So as it turns out, there is a way for me to get into the PrC at 6th level - an Enchanter Wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana. In exchange for wizard bonus feats, an Enchanter can get several class skills, including Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Due to the book restrictions and the loss of bonus feats, however, that means I won't be able to go into the Uttercold build I'd been hoping for. It also means I'll need to look into Enchantment school builds...

Assuming I don't go with that option, and stick with the original Uttercold build... then a lot of the build-up is going to be about getting the right feats. Two homebrew feats (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_(DnD_Other)/Necromancy_with_Style#Feats) are needed for the class, "A Feast Unknown" and "Path of Blood" - the latter having 5th-level as a prereq. The feats themselves provide boosts to undead. Beyond that, Lord of the Uttercold requires Energy Substitution: Cold, and one other Metamagic feat (while making a quick test build, I chose Extend Spell). That's five feats that are required, and if I pick human as a race that gives me all of them at sixth level... though I may want to put the Uttercold stuff off for things like Spell Focus: Enchantment or whatever would improve the [I]main[i] focus of the class...

Nifft
2018-05-03, 11:37 PM
The skill prereqs are:
Knowledge (Arcana) 9 ranks, Diplomacy 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks.

You don't need to be a special Enchanter to get those ranks, and you can't get in until after level 6 since you need 9 ranks of Kn:Arcana. You can get 4 ranks of any skill at character level 5 by paying cross-class.

The feat Able Learner (Races of Destiny; must be Human-ish) will remove the double cost for cross-class skill ranks, making it slightly less painful to purchase Diplomacy 4 and Sense Motive 4, if you care about skill points more than feats.

Falontani
2018-05-03, 11:51 PM
Sorc into prestigious bard and grab Dirgesinger before entering your class. If you can fit 5 levels of dirgesinger that would be awesome

Dusk Raven
2018-05-07, 08:45 PM
The skill prereqs are:

You don't need to be a special Enchanter to get those ranks, and you can't get in until after level 6 since you need 9 ranks of Kn:Arcana. You can get 4 ranks of any skill at character level 5 by paying cross-class.

The feat Able Learner (Races of Destiny; must be Human-ish) will remove the double cost for cross-class skill ranks, making it slightly less painful to purchase Diplomacy 4 and Sense Motive 4, if you care about skill points more than feats.

...I derped on the requirements, apparently. For some reason I thought you had to be level 8 to get those 4 ranks. Hmm. Able Learner might still be a good investment, though - and it's probably needed if I go the Sorc route as Falontani suggests. Wizards may not get a lot of skill points, but having INT as a required ability means they get a fair number anyway... of course, from what I know, Sorcercers aren't well-suited for either enchanting or necromancy, despite CHA being a top stat for them...


Sorc into prestigious bard and grab Dirgesinger before entering your class. If you can fit 5 levels of dirgesinger that would be awesome

That depends on how many books my DM allows - and if they allow the Prestige Bard on top of normal Bard. More than that, though... while I'm intrigued by the concept, the Widow Queen's abilities don't really stack with the Bard/Dirgesinger features... which I imagine is why you suggested the Prestige Bard, as at least then both PrCs are boosting the same base class. Admittedly, Libris Mortis would be a good book to have for the "necromancy" part of the class.

Out of curiosity, is there any way for Bards to get spells from the Wizard/Sorc list that Bards don't normally have? If I can get Web and Vampiric Touch on a Bard, I could Bard/Dirgesinger/Widow Queen, which would be interesting...

Falontani
2018-05-07, 09:04 PM
That depends on how many books my DM allows - and if they allow the Prestige Bard on top of normal Bard. More than that, though... while I'm intrigued by the concept, the Widow Queen's abilities don't really stack with the Bard/Dirgesinger features... which I imagine is why you suggested the Prestige Bard, as at least then both PrCs are boosting the same base class. Admittedly, Libris Mortis would be a good book to have for the "necromancy" part of the class.

Out of curiosity, is there any way for Bards to get spells from the Wizard/Sorc list that Bards don't normally have? If I can get Web and Vampiric Touch on a Bard, I could Bard/Dirgesinger/Widow Queen, which would be interesting...

I am only familiar with RAW, so I haven't read up on Widow Queen.

Cheesy and probably wont fly, but from Complete Arcane: Extra Spell doesn't specify it must come from your class list. There are other ways; however most of them require multiple books

Dusk Raven
2018-05-07, 09:07 PM
I am only familiar with RAW, so I haven't read up on Widow Queen.

I linked to it in the OP. It's the entire point of me making this thread. :P

I will say that it looks like the kind of thing that's meant to be used for enemy NPCs, though I like the concept so much I want to try and build something around it.

Nifft
2018-05-07, 10:41 PM
Out of curiosity, is there any way for Bards to get spells from the Wizard/Sorc list that Bards don't normally have? If I can get Web and Vampiric Touch on a Bard, I could Bard/Dirgesinger/Widow Queen, which would be interesting...

Lyric Thaumaturge could do it, but you'd have to spend 6 class levels to those two Sorc/Wiz spells in specific. (You'd also get any Sorc/Wiz level 1 & level 4 spell, plus a bunch of other stuff.)