Greater Armor Enhancement + Mage Armor

[Falontani]

So I have heard repeatedly that you can use magic vestment on spells like mage armor. Can you use the artificer infusion Greater Armor Enhancement on mage armor?

Also, can you physically touch someone's mage armor, or shield (the spell)? It is made of force. Sure it is invisible, but can you actually touch it? I can't see any reasons you couldn't touch it, and don't know how it would work if you couldn't touch it, but it never states that you can.

Finally. I know this would be in danger of being dispelled, but if you had a continuous mage armor, could you enchant it with Create Magic Arms and Armor?

[DrMotives]

You can't enchant a spell, even a permanent one, with item creation feats. However, padded armor with the caster armor quality is pretty cheap (555 gp) and has a 0% arcane failure rate.

Also, I don't think a Mage Armor spell is a valid target for a Magic Vestment spell. There's room to debate there, but it goes against how magic tends to work. Psionics however, are more than happy to allow Inertial Armor to have a variable AC bonus depending on how much power is used to create it.

[Mordaedil]

I would say that you don't enchant the Mage Armor with Magic Vestment, but the robes beneath. So they still "stack", but it's an awkward quirck of the enchantment.

[Zombimode]

So I have heard repeatedly that you can use magic vestment on spells like mage armor. Can you use the artificer infusion Greater Armor Enhancement on mage armor?

Also, can you physically touch someone's mage armor, or shield (the spell)? It is made of force. Sure it is invisible, but can you actually touch it? I can't see any reasons you couldn't touch it, and don't know how it would work if you couldn't touch it, but it never states that you can.

Finally. I know this would be in danger of being dispelled, but if you had a continuous mage armor, could you enchant it with Create Magic Arms and Armor?

Magic Vestment targets an Armor or Shield.
Mage Armor creates a magical force effect that provides an armor Bonus.

The fact that in provides an armor Bonus is on it's own not enough to make it count as Armor because:
- there are Things that don't provide armor Bonus that Count as Armor (regular clothing as mentioned in the spell description)
- there are Things that do provide an armor Bonus that definitely do not Count as Armor (Bracers of Armor)


From my view Mage Armor and similar Magic force effects that provide an armor Bonus do not Count as Armor for the purpose of spells like Magic Vestment.

But I can totally see to rule it otherwise.

[Falontani]

See I actually agree with you guys on the mage armor thing, but I know I've seen at least once on this site and several others that they do in fact work together, and that is where I got the whole idea from.

[Elkad]

The question is really "does an armor bonus stack with an armor enhancement bonus on a different item?", which doesn't appear to be clearly addressed in the rules.

If I cast Magic Vestment on my underpants, does the +1 stack with a suit of mundane armor?
The same answer to that question should apply with Mage Armor, or Braders of Defense.

I can argue to rule it either way. But whatever the answer is, it should apply to both situations equally.

[InterstellarPro]

See I actually agree with you guys on the mage armor thing, but I know I've seen at least once on this site and several others that they do in fact work together, and that is where I got the whole idea from.

IIRC, clothing can be considered "armor" for the purposes of enchanting. So, I believe the argument goes, while you cannot target the Mage Armor itself, you can target clothing with an enhancement bonus. That would "stack" with the Armor bonus provided by Mage Armor since the bonus types are different. Of course, the counter argument would be that you would take the higher of the enhanced clothing and the mage armor bonus as the total armor bonus, as the enhancement is providing an enhancement to the clothing's +0 armor bonus, not enhancing the armor bonus provided by the Mage Armor spell. Another example:

A fighter is wearing +3 full plate armor (total armor bonus = +11). A mage casts Mage Armor on the fighter. The full plate is better than the mage armor, so only the +11 armor bonus applies.
A rogue is wearing +3 leather armor (total armor bonus = +5). A mage casts Mage Armor on the rogue. Is the rogue's armor bonus

+5 (the leather armor has a higher bonus than the mage armor)
+7 (the enhancement bonus from the leather armor applies to the greatest armor bonus the character possesses, which is now the Mage Armor)


In the latter case, it seems obvious to me that the rogue's leather armor is providing a +5 bonus (+2 armor +3 enhancement for a total of +5), and that is a unit that cannot be separated. The leather armor is specifically enhanced, not the character. But, that is not necessarily so. Other DMs may rule differently.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[ApologyFestival]

The question is really "does an armor bonus stack with an armor enhancement bonus on a different item?", which doesn't appear to be clearly addressed in the rules.
I think that they do stack. Bonuses of different types stack--it's one of the cornerstones of the game's rules.


A rogue is wearing +3 leather armor (total armor bonus = +5). A mage casts Mage Armor on the rogue. Is the rogue's armor bonus

+5 (the leather armor has a higher bonus than the mage armor)
+7 (the enhancement bonus from the leather armor applies to the greatest armor bonus the character possesses, which is now the Mage Armor)

In this case, I would say B. The rogue has a +4 armour bonus to AC (mage armour) and a +3 enhancement bonus to AC (magic item).

[InterstellarPro]

I think that they do stack. Bonuses of different types stack--it's one of the cornerstones of the game's rules.


In this case, I would say B. The rogue has a +4 armour bonus to AC (mage armour) and a +3 enhancement bonus to AC (magic item).

I do not necessarily disagree with you, but playing devil's advocate for a moment, when you wield a +5 mace in one hand and a nonmagical dagger in the other, in your games, is the +5 bonus to the mace also conferred to the dagger? If not, then why would the enhancement to a specific weapon not be conferred, but when it is armor, it is? If it is, then what is the purpose of enhancing different ends of a double weapon when the bonus from one side is automatically conferred to the other?

[Elkad]

I think that they do stack. Bonuses of different types stack--it's one of the cornerstones of the game's rules.


In this case, I would say B. The rogue has a +4 armour bonus to AC (mage armour) and a +3 enhancement bonus to AC (magic item).

And there lies the discrepancy. The argument is the enhancement bonus isn't "yours", it's on the armor. So it only applies to that specific piece.

So you have AC2+3 on your leather, or AC4+0 on your mage armor. Pick one. Which would be AC5 vs normal attacks, with the MA only covering stuff like incorporeals.

If you apply rational thought (In D&D! Nooooo!), you should get some level of benefit from layering armor, but then some optimizer would try to do the "most T-shirts on one man" contest with ever-larger suits of platemail...

[Necroticplague]

Er, just a minor note that seems to be getting wrong consistently in this thread: enchanted armor/shields don't provide enhancement bonuses to AC.


Magic armor grants an enhancement bonus to the armor's armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the armor's overall bonus.
So +3 leather is not +2 Armor bonus and +3 Enhancement Bonus, it's +5 Armor bonus.

So the correct answer to this:


A rogue is wearing +3 leather armor (total armor bonus = +5). A mage casts Mage Armor on the rogue. Is the rogue's armor bonus

+5 (the leather armor has a higher bonus than the mage armor)
+7 (the enhancement bonus from the leather armor applies to the greatest armor bonus the character possesses, which is now the Mage Armor)


is +5. They have a +5 and +4 sources of armor, which one uses the higher of.

[Kobold Esq]

Er, just a minor note that seems to be getting wrong consistently in this thread: enchanted armor/shields don't provide enhancement bonuses to AC.


That isn't a "minor note," that is the entirety of the issue! People aren't understanding that the enhancement bonus is enhancing the item, not the AC.

The item (or spell effect) is the thing that provides the armor bonus. The enhancement from the second spell changes the armor bonus that the item or first spell effect provides. No mixing and matching, only the highest of the newly modified armor bonuses applies.

[InterstellarPro]

That isn't a "minor note," that is the entirety of the issue! People aren't understanding that the enhancement bonus is enhancing the item, not the AC.

The item (or spell effect) is the thing that provides the armor bonus. The enhancement from the second spell changes the armor bonus that the item or first spell effect provides. No mixing and matching, only the highest of the newly modified armor bonuses applies.

Also, note that the topic of this thread is Greater Armor Enhancement + Mage Armor. Greater Armor Enhancement does not confer any armor bonus (enhancement or otherwise). It confers the armor special properties with a market price equivalence of up to +5. So, if the mage had Mage Armor for +4 AC bonus, then the artificer used Greater Armor Enhancement to give the mage Heavy Fortification, that should stack without issue. The clothing provides the Heavy Fortification while the Mage Armor provides an armor bonus.